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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 157379 times)

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Qvist

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #276 on: May 22, 2013, 09:31:46 am »
0

Apprentice should be at the bottom of this section, not at the top. It is an incredibly slow early game trasher unless you are lucky in pairing it with estates. Buying it early doesn't do enough for your economy. It gets a lot better in the end game to squeeze all the value out of your deck, but when to buy over green? The combos with Gold gainers are nice but these decks tend to be inconsistent and because they require specific cards they don't show up that often. There's also a real possibility that I'm just bad with Apprentice.

I also think Stables should get the nod over Lab for being useful on a wider range of boards. The copper filtering is powerful, and I think makes up for the potential Stables nightmare hands.
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Blueswan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #277 on: May 22, 2013, 10:12:52 am »
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It's back. YAY!
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #278 on: May 22, 2013, 11:52:26 am »
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I'm actually largely satisfied with part 5. A few little errors:

--Stables should beat Laboratory. The dread Stables hand can be a real threat, but if you have that many actions you probably have some other non-terminal draw cards to hopefully alleviate it. On the whole, Stables's draw is just so much better than Lab's.

--Bandit Camp looks overrated. All the Dark Ages cards were significantly misranked, and perhaps Bandit Camp isn't as egregious as the others, but I have a hard time believing it belongs in such elite company. It's an expensive village that generates 1-shot Golds. That's nice, but I don't think it's 20th best card in the game nice. And as for DA cards, Rebuild, Band of Misfits, arguably Junk Dealer and Catacombs, are all better than Bandit Camp, I would say.

--Embassy one place worse than Vault? That's a tough call, but I would probably switch them.

I like the placements of Duke and Apprentice. It's possible Margrave is underrated here, but I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:02:31 pm by Robz888 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #279 on: May 22, 2013, 11:57:10 am »
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--Embassy one place better than Vault? That's a tough call, but I would probably switch them.

 ??? Embassy is one place worse than Vault.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #280 on: May 22, 2013, 12:02:22 pm »
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--Embassy one place better than Vault? That's a tough call, but I would probably switch them.

 ??? Embassy is one place worse than Vault.

Uh, let me change that. What I meant was "Vault is one place better than Embassy?" I would probably switch them. I think Embassy slightly beats Vault these days.
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mail-mi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #281 on: May 22, 2013, 01:05:10 pm »
+1

I would like to add to apprentices description that you can trash a cultist when the ruins are all gone for +8 cards
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Lekkit

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #282 on: May 22, 2013, 01:16:50 pm »
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Bandit Camp is really good when it's good. In engines. I love myself te card that says +1 Card, +2 Actions, +3 Coins. But when it's not in engines, it's not that good. Most of the times I'd rather have that Silver that stays in my deck. Most of the time you get a Spoils in hand and exchange it for a real Gold. That goes for Spoils in general.

Stables is beastly. Laboratory is mostly a win more card. You got a nice engine that need that little extra draw, you get a Lab. Stables makes engines possible when there aren't any good way of getting rid of coppers. And 3 cards for a copper will always be a nice trade off in most BM games. Especially if you can do it more than once a turn.
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Blueswan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #283 on: May 22, 2013, 01:42:27 pm »
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I would like to add to apprentices description that you can trash a cultist when the ruins are all gone for +8 cards
WOW! Hadn't thought of that combo. Of course, you could also trash a Peddler for +8 cards.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #284 on: May 22, 2013, 01:52:37 pm »
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Yes, Embassy is often better than vault...
I didn't expect Stables to be so high, but I don't know so much about this card.
Upgrade seems to high compared to Junk dealer.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #285 on: May 22, 2013, 02:19:20 pm »
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Apprentice should be at the bottom of this section, not at the top. It is an incredibly slow early game trasher unless you are lucky in pairing it with estates. Buying it early doesn't do enough for your economy. It gets a lot better in the end game to squeeze all the value out of your deck, but when to buy over green? The combos with Gold gainers are nice but these decks tend to be inconsistent and because they require specific cards they don't show up that often. There's also a real possibility that I'm just bad with Apprentice.
You're right about Apprentice being a slow early game trasher, but the thing is, it can really accelerate your endgame.  If you have a lead, I think that Apprentice and Salvager are two of the best cards to help you close out the game quickly.  Granted, Salvager may be better because it works well as an early game trasher too (though not so much with Shelters), but the fact that Apprentice is non-terminal is big.  You can trash stuff late game to prevent your engine from misfiring, which you can't really do with Salvager--your engine needs to go off first and then you can finish the turn with a Salvager.  Apprentice can be the card that helps you start or maintain the big turn that leads to a double-Province or Province-Duchy buy or something.
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soulnet

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #286 on: May 22, 2013, 02:27:57 pm »
+2

Bandit Camp is really good when it's good. In engines. I love myself te card that says +1 Card, +2 Actions, +3 Coins.

If you want to count the +$3 from the Spoils you would have to, at the very least, remove the +1 Card, since you need to draw the Spoils. If you are drawing your deck, then the +1 Card does not help either.

Of course, there is a BIG difference, which is, drawing your deck is a lot easier if the money is at the end and the drawing cards are at the beginning, and that's why Bandit Camp is BETTER than "+2 Actions, +$3" in a draw-your-deck engine. This was addressed in Bandit Camp's article.
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AJD

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #287 on: May 22, 2013, 03:15:39 pm »
+1

I think that Apprentice and Salvager are two of the best cards to help you close out the game quickly.  Granted, Salvager may be better because it works well as an early game trasher too

Well wait, Salvager vs. Apprentice as an early-game trasher....

If you're trashing Copper with Spice Merchant, most times (but not always) you choose the +cards rather than the +coin, right? This suggests to me that if you're trashing Estates, most times (but not always) you'd rather use an Apprentice to do it than a Salvager, which have the same two effects as Spice Merchant.

Of course, Salvager is cheaper than Apprenctice, so if what you want is an early-game trasher Salvager is easier to come by.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #288 on: May 22, 2013, 03:25:08 pm »
+1

im glad to see duke getting some love, most players don't know the power of duke. most boards have enough support for duke to make it preferable over a province strategy(in 2 player), and most players don't know how to play against, resulting in an easy win.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #289 on: May 22, 2013, 03:39:06 pm »
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Apprentice should be at the bottom of this section, not at the top. It is an incredibly slow early game trasher unless you are lucky in pairing it with estates. Buying it early doesn't do enough for your economy. It gets a lot better in the end game to squeeze all the value out of your deck, but when to buy over green? The combos with Gold gainers are nice but these decks tend to be inconsistent and because they require specific cards they don't show up that often. There's also a real possibility that I'm just bad with Apprentice.

I also think Stables should get the nod over Lab for being useful on a wider range of boards. The copper filtering is powerful, and I think makes up for the potential Stables nightmare hands.

Agreed with everything you said. Also, Embassy is better than Vault.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #290 on: May 22, 2013, 08:38:03 pm »
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I think that Apprentice and Salvager are two of the best cards to help you close out the game quickly.  Granted, Salvager may be better because it works well as an early game trasher too

Well wait, Salvager vs. Apprentice as an early-game trasher....

If you're trashing Copper with Spice Merchant, most times (but not always) you choose the +cards rather than the +coin, right? This suggests to me that if you're trashing Estates, most times (but not always) you'd rather use an Apprentice to do it than a Salvager, which have the same two effects as Spice Merchant.

Of course, Salvager is cheaper than Apprenctice, so if what you want is an early-game trasher Salvager is easier to come by.
Yeah, I could have been more clear about that.  Salvager is a better early game trasher more because you can always open with it, rather than its actual rules text.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #291 on: May 22, 2013, 09:27:33 pm »
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Embassy wins over vault for me for being better in colony games.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #292 on: May 22, 2013, 09:45:06 pm »
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Embassy wins over vault for me for being better in colony games.

I think its also better for most engines (usually draw is better than virtual money, basically). For BM+X, I'm not really sure, both are pretty darn good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #293 on: May 22, 2013, 09:56:11 pm »
+1

It's hard to evaluate them because of the on-gain bonus to your opponent of Embassy. It's just really hard, for me at least, to properly add in the "value" of that silver to your opponent, it's not a common thing to have effects like that so I don't know how to integrate it into my thinking about Embassy.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #294 on: May 23, 2013, 02:05:50 am »
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I'm honestly surprised Bandit Camp got rated this high. It's a good $5 Village, but I think it's about as strong as Festival. If anything, switch it's spot with Rebuild. Of course everyone is still discussing Rebuild's strength, but it belongs up here much much more than Bandit Camp.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #295 on: May 23, 2013, 03:31:53 am »
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Bandit Camp is really good though. In BM, you are essentially getting a gold for $5. In engines, the spoils usually come handy. Sometimes, though, Bandit Camp isn't worth getting, especially if other villages are on the board. But, I like that added strategic element.
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lespeutere

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #296 on: May 23, 2013, 04:05:37 am »
+2

Upgrade seems to high compared to Junk dealer.

Upgrade lower than lab or vault makes me cry. But that may be due to personal preference.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #297 on: May 23, 2013, 04:56:18 am »
+3

Upgrade seems to high compared to Junk dealer.

Upgrade lower than lab or vault makes me cry. But that may be due to personal preference.

I agree 100%. Upgrade should be way, way higher. It helps building an engine, it helps when you get cursed, it generates enormous power once your engine is running, it provides end game control.

Checking good old CouncilRoom, I see the average %with for all players was 59.7%. I played 94.6% of my games with it; only Fishing Village and tournament are higher.
It's also 2nd on my 'Win rate given availability' ranking. And I think it got better with Dark Ages (Fortress, Rats and more) unless Poor House is on the table.

Honestly, I don't know what I was doing in the remaining 5.4% of the games. Ironworks-Silkroad? Maybe.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #298 on: May 23, 2013, 07:42:17 pm »
+3

The best comparison to Bandit Camp isn't Bazaar, it's Gold. It's highly likely you'll be able to play the Bandit Camp every time it comes up unless you have a badly designed terminal drawing engine, so in every shuffle after the first one you have the Bandit camp, you essentially have a treasure worth $3 in your deck.

Thus, in return for missing a reshuffle, you get a free Village (a card that's very unlikely to hurt your deck), a $1 discount and a few other fringe benefits (the ability not to play Spoils shouldn't be underestimated). I would think the only cards better than it are the ones that you'd often consider buying over Gold when you have an early $6... which is most of the cards ranked above it.

It's certainly a lot better than the other discounted Golds.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 07:48:13 pm by NoMoreFun »
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #299 on: May 24, 2013, 06:13:24 am »
0

Upgrade seems to high compared to Junk dealer.

Upgrade lower than lab or vault makes me cry. But that may be due to personal preference.

I agree 100%. Upgrade should be way, way higher. It helps building an engine, it helps when you get cursed, it generates enormous power once your engine is running, it provides end game control.

Checking good old CouncilRoom, I see the average %with for all players was 59.7%. I played 94.6% of my games with it; only Fishing Village and tournament are higher.
It's also 2nd on my 'Win rate given availability' ranking. And I think it got better with Dark Ages (Fortress, Rats and more) unless Poor House is on the table.

Honestly, I don't know what I was doing in the remaining 5.4% of the games. Ironworks-Silkroad? Maybe.

I guess upgrade is a high skill card, like develop or procession ^^
However, I still think Junk dealer is underrated, as an early game trasher it's much better than upgrade (especially with shelters)
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