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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 96885 times)

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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #250 on: April 30, 2013, 03:55:06 pm »
+1

I think Haggler is very strong, probably the best virtual +Buy card, it fits into engine strats and money strats.  Duke is very strong too, but it seems to me not in as many contexts.  Look, the fact is, I'm not a very good player, maybe I'm way off.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #251 on: April 30, 2013, 04:35:35 pm »
+4

Speaking of doing great things, Horn of Plenty is the biggest miss so far. It's a borderline top 5 $5 non-attack, imo (I guess it's #6 -- top 5 are Wharf, IGG, Governor, Duke, and HP). It's completely dominant so often. I think people overlook how useful gainers are in general, as I've said on all the lists. And HoP is the best gainer, because it maintains value the whole game. You get one with your first or second $5 hand, use it to gain cheap engine pieces, then expensive engine pieces, then more Horns, then Provinces! I think people think of it only as a card that functions in mega-turns, but forget how useful it is at setting up that mega-turn by building the engine for you.
This is spot-on, HoP is way too low here, although I wouldn't rate it quite as highly as you, I would put it somewhere in the 15-20 range I think.  The fact that it's effectively a non-terminal gainer makes it so great, it's even good for engines when you're not going for a HoP-fueled megaturn.

Question though: do you really think Duke is a top-5 non-attack $5 card?  I'm not saying that I think you're wrong necessarily, I'm just wondering why you think that because I would probably rank Tactician, Apprentice, Vault, Haggler, and perhaps Embassy above Duke.

The question of Duke is mostly philosophical. Clearly Duke doesn't do a lot for your deck, since it's just a victory card, so if you evaluate the strength of cards by what you do when you play them, it's going to be much lower. But if you think about how it affects strategy, I think it's a very important card. Along with Colony, Vineyards, and the VP chip cards, it's one of the few cards that can allow you to outscore someone who has most of the Provinces. This I feel adds a very different dynamic to the game, and I view that as being powerful. Generally, the cards I rank higher are the ones that pop out at me when I look at a kingdom, putting curse-givers and sources of VP among the top cards.
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #252 on: May 02, 2013, 10:50:36 am »
0

I've played a lot of DA games since it's the 2nd expansion I got. Rebuild is good, but easily beaten if the non-rebuild player grabs enough duchies. Rebuilds are limited in Provinces by the number of Duchies they get. With the right cards, getting 5 Duchies is not impossible, especially if the Rebuild player has to buy Rebuilds too. Sure they can simply empty the Province pile, but they'll be slow at doing that and not increasing their points. Colonies are another story, and just crazy for Rebuild.

It is a game changer though, as said before.

As KingZog says, it changes the game. Its reasonably strong, but I think right now, people are only just learning how to play it, but don't know how to play AGAINST it at all. It grabs green cards quick, and empties out duchies, so if you are playing an engine, you can't hope to catch up that way later. So its a little like playing a rush strategy, and you need to play accordingly.
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Blueswan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #253 on: May 06, 2013, 03:32:20 pm »
0

Can't wait for the continuation!
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #254 on: May 06, 2013, 05:57:53 pm »
+1

Rebuild is a card that I suspect will become weaker as people become used to it, rather than better. My experience has been that most players (including me) feel obligated to go for Rebuild  mirrors, especially on boards that have a bit of a power vacuum. Your opponent greening early has a powerful psychological effect.

With more experience I think Rebuild focused strategies will be vulnerable to counter play by the opponent, because Rebuild isn't a terribly flexible card, and these decks tend to get a little stuck at the end of games (stagnating at a point where you only add $3 value to your deck a turn, not great). It is a strong card though, and we'll just have to wait and see if people can learn how to beat it.

I also think Rebuild is a bit overrated by many here. Sure it can lead to quick wins, but the big big BIG downside of a dedicated Rebuild strategy is the (not unlikely situation) when the Duchies are out (which the likely will be) and you are not in the lead. That's sort of a dead end road right there. Sure, a Rebuild "rush" can be strong and hard to beat on certain boards, but it's far from the be-all-end-all strategy that dominates the vast majority of the games.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #255 on: May 06, 2013, 11:16:36 pm »
0

I really need to play Rebuild more in games vs. people. Currently I think I've played all of one game against a non-bot with it, and bots tend to ignore it, or at the very least, never try and counter it, and so you can win very easily. I really need to get a little practice with it against real players, to properly gauge it's strength.
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mameluke

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #256 on: May 09, 2013, 02:11:36 am »
0

Rebuild is pretty strong. I just played it to great effect vs. a player who was going crazy with Goons. It was a Colony game, so it helped out that I got a huge number of colonies just from playing rebuild over and over and buying estates/duchies when I could, even with 3 cards each hand. (alchemist helped, too).
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Fragasnap

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #257 on: May 09, 2013, 12:18:46 pm »
+2

I've played a lot of DA games since it's the 2nd expansion I got. Rebuild is good, but easily beaten if the non-rebuild player grabs enough duchies. Rebuilds are limited in Provinces by the number of Duchies they get. With the right cards, getting 5 Duchies is not impossible, especially if the Rebuild player has to buy Rebuilds too. Sure they can simply empty the Province pile, but they'll be slow at doing that and not increasing their points. Colonies are another story, and just crazy for Rebuild.

It is a game changer though, as said before.
So is the general consensus is that the strategy to play against Rebuild is to buy lots of Duchies? That would slow down your own acquisition of game winning Provinces... if you have so many Duchies in your deck, you logically buy Rebuild.
The counter to Rebuild is Rebuild.

It's not that amazing in games with Shelters, but the fact is: Rebuild is non-terminal. You can throw it into a deck and all it costs you is a $5 Buy and a card spot in your hand every so often. If a player goes for a dedicated Rebuild rush (which I do not think is optimal play), he has to have some way to get to Rebuild fast enough to snatch up Duchies before they are bought up from under him, and the other players who are buying Duchies are going to notice themselves choking on the early green that they could easily upgrade into Provinces by also buying Rebuild (which, again, is nonterminal and thusly easy to stick into a deck).
If a card is countered primarily by playing it more effectively than the opponent, then that seems like a pretty powerful card to me.
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serakfalcon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #258 on: May 09, 2013, 12:25:10 pm »
0

Quote
So is the general consensus is that the strategy to play against Rebuild is to buy lots of Duchies? That would slow down your own acquisition of game winning Provinces...
Not really, if you get most of the duchies you can get rebuild later, its not like your opponent will have money
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #259 on: May 09, 2013, 12:48:31 pm »
0

I also feel like Rebuild makes it harder to know who is winning or when the game will end.  I guess any of the remodel-into-victory strategies have this, but since Rebuild is upgrading victory cards you have to take special note that your Province gains are netting you +3 victory points instead of +6, or take time to look into the trash and recount. 

Well, maybe it's not harder, but the "feel" of how the game is going and who has the advantage seems to be different than in other kinds of games.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #260 on: May 09, 2013, 01:21:59 pm »
+1

I used to think Rebuild was Dark Age's Jack-of-All Trades--by that I mean, a powerful baseline strategy--but I'm starting to see it as more of an Ill-Gotten Gains, almost unavoidable single card rush thing.

Sure, you can buy Duchies in order to fight the person going Rebuild... but then why not go Rebuild yourself? Perhaps some sort of engine where you are immediately trashing them with a TfB card would work.

There's just nothing that really disrupts Rebuild. Hand-size decreasers and junkers will only help the Rebuild player, and they won't slow him down one iota.

I don't know, people. It's a strong card.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #261 on: May 09, 2013, 01:39:22 pm »
0

I haven't played with Rebuild much yet.  Robz (and others), how strong would you say Rebuild is against simple money strats that get to 4+ Provinces very quickly, like Masq, Jack, Wharf, Courtyard?
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #262 on: May 09, 2013, 01:49:44 pm »
0

I haven't played with Rebuild much yet.  Robz (and others), how strong would you say Rebuild is against simple money strats that get to 4+ Provinces very quickly, like Masq, Jack, Wharf, Courtyard?

I could be totally wrong, but I think Rebuild is probably similarly fast to all four. Masq and Jack are perhaps slower than Rebuild (in pure BM). Wharf and Courtyard I suspect are faster.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #263 on: May 09, 2013, 02:10:20 pm »
0

I actually do think Rebuild is quite a bit like Jack. It's a very strong baseline which more than anything is very very resilient, and quite a bit weaker in colony games. Jack is one of the strongest few 4s, and Rebuild is stronger. Of course, it costs more, which isn't so much a problem, except that there's more of an opportunity cost. The best way to beat either one is to be faster.

I played Jack against Rebuild a few days ago and won, well I felt relatively comfortable, but it was reasonably close. Note that actually on the same board, they don't work so terribly together. Well, if in the same hand, rebuild into a jack is marvelous. At the same time, trashing estates with jack isn't so terribly hot for rebuild as normally it is.


On the other hand, I don't really have a very good feel as to how to play Rebuild, and I have quite a bad understanding of how to play against it.

Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #264 on: May 09, 2013, 02:19:25 pm »
0

Another way in which it is similar to strong BM strategies like Jack and Masquerade (and unlike Courtyard and usually Wharf) is that it survives Junkers and Discarders with barely a scratch.

Junkers: Masq hard counters, Jack counters, Wharf takes a hit, Courtyard succumbs. Rebuild is hurt by negative VP from Curses, but the deck doesn't slow one bit.

Discarders: Jack counters, Wharf takes a hit, Courtyard takes a hit, Masq takes a big hit. Has no effect on Rebuild, and could actually help (discard your Duchies!).

Deck inspection attacks also have no effect on Rebuild, although they barely hurt the other BM strategies, either. Trashers are probably the one attack that can really mess with Rebuild, since you can't afford to lose your Duchies to a Knight or a Rogue or a Saboteur.
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meandering mercury

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #265 on: May 11, 2013, 01:47:18 am »
0

An important difference, though, is that Rebuild is not a terminal. In most kingdoms, you'd be able to add in some strong terminal card (as long as it's not terminal draw) to significantly boost the strength of the Rebuild-based deck in a way that can be hard with Jack/Wharf/Courtyard/Masq.

I don't think a pure Rebuild deck is representative of the strength of the card for the same reason that BM without actions isn't representative of the strength of BM.
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soulnet

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #266 on: May 11, 2013, 10:52:27 am »
0

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #267 on: May 11, 2013, 11:10:26 am »
0

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
I think 3 is better than 2.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #268 on: May 11, 2013, 02:05:26 pm »
0

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
I think 3 is better than 2.
I agree. But not 4, since you'll just start to pass over Rebuilds with other Rebuilds.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #269 on: May 12, 2013, 10:10:07 am »
+1

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
I think 3 is better than 2.
More is better than less
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and your parents just don't let you because there's only just a little bit.
Right. We want more, we want more.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #270 on: May 12, 2013, 10:34:51 am »
+1

I hate that commercial.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #271 on: May 14, 2013, 02:43:52 am »
+1

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
I think 3 is better than 2.

Honestly, I think 2 Rebuilds is usually the right call. You need to use your other $5 hands to start buying Duchies and not Rebuilds. Sometimes, though, 3 Rebuilds is the correct call.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #272 on: May 14, 2013, 08:47:23 am »
0

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
I think 3 is better than 2.

Honestly, I think 2 Rebuilds is usually the right call. You need to use your other $5 hands to start buying Duchies and not Rebuilds. Sometimes, though, 3 Rebuilds is the correct call.
Depends on the board.
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soulnet

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #273 on: May 14, 2013, 09:14:23 am »
0

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
I think 3 is better than 2.

Honestly, I think 2 Rebuilds is usually the right call. You need to use your other $5 hands to start buying Duchies and not Rebuilds. Sometimes, though, 3 Rebuilds is the correct call.
Depends on the board.

What do you think are the things to look for to see the decision? A junker I would say should imply more Rebuilds, as you won't see them as often, right? Are there any others?
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #274 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:23 am »
0

Jack + Rebuild seems like it would be pretty strong. Jack's Silvers will help you get to 5 even while adding green, so you can buy those duchies and Rebuild on the same turn.

How many Rebuilds should be bought before starting to buy Duchies? 2? 3? I went with 2 the only Rebuild game I played and it seemed ok for the small amount we could use them without trashin our own Estates (it was a mirror, and Duchies went out quick and we got to 3-3 Provinces + 1 Duchy each in no time, so Estate dancing all the way to the end until some lucky $8 hand appeared).
I think 3 is better than 2.

Honestly, I think 2 Rebuilds is usually the right call. You need to use your other $5 hands to start buying Duchies and not Rebuilds. Sometimes, though, 3 Rebuilds is the correct call.
Depends on the board.

What do you think are the things to look for to see the decision? A junker I would say should imply more Rebuilds, as you won't see them as often, right? Are there any others?
Junkers for sure. Junkers often are $5 and interfere with buying Rebuilds too. Possibly Pillage if the opponent has some way to gain them all the time, like University+Pillage or Graverobber+Pillage. Would that be enough to shut down Rebuild? And what about Pirate Ship? It's not great but Rebuild has little money to be losing to Pirate Ship, so would that slow them enough in actually getting Rebuilds and Duchys?
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