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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 96775 times)

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AJD

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #225 on: April 28, 2013, 04:55:27 pm »
0

count is good with duke, but that's about it...

Count is also good with Rebuild!
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #226 on: April 28, 2013, 05:02:07 pm »
0

I don't think Catacombs is that strong. Ok, the little spy/Oracle effect is cool, and you can discard 3 cards for the deck cycling... but otherwise, nothing really impressive. And the on-trash effect is so often useless, just like Hunting grounds (that said I really like to make that effect work).

Horn of plenty is honestly too low. The more I play with HoP, the more I find myself impressed by how good, even in a mediocre kingdom, this card can be.

Rebuild, I think is too low too, but I do not particularly agree with those that think this is the best $5. I still prefer something like Mountebank, Witch, IGG or even Hunting party and Cultist.
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #227 on: April 28, 2013, 05:25:44 pm »
+1

count is good with duke, but that's about it...

Count is also good with Rebuild!

Buying Count when you could have bought an additional Rebuild (or later a Duchy) is pretty bad?

Rebuild should be top 10, even though it's one of the two cards I feel least comfortable with. My general plan is to buy ~3 of them as soon as possible, buy estates with <$5 hands whenever I expect to be out of Rebuild targets soon, then Rebuilding Estates into Duchies until they're out, and only then aim for Provinces. This works pretty well, but every now and then I get completely owned by something that just doesn't look that great to me (like Alchemists into Rebuild, that should be way to slow???), so any advice would be appreciated (if this isn't the right place for that I'd be happy to open a thread in the Help! forum with some sample games).
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #228 on: April 28, 2013, 05:30:02 pm »
+4

Rebuild is the most powerful card of dominion
No, that's Bureaucrat.
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math

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #229 on: April 28, 2013, 06:23:34 pm »
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Most of the cards here are okay, I think.

Rebuild is criminally underrated.  Looking at the last list, I would definitely put it in the top 10, if not the top 5.  I would say it's definitely better than Cultist, and as game-changing as Hunting Party or Ill-Gotten Gains.  Out of 20+ games I have played with this card, there was only one where it wasn't part of a dominating strategy.  Sometimes that strategy involved getting Mountebank first and Rebuild later, or something like that, but Rebuild is always a card to be aware of.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #230 on: April 28, 2013, 06:40:26 pm »
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Rebuild being as low as it is doesn't surprise me, for the reasons Qvist said. It definitely needs to go up, as it's really extremely effective, and is pretty resilient to most attacks.

Count, I really think is about right here. I overrated it at first, but this looks pretty good. It's kinda a hard card to judge, I think, because it offers so many options. With three options for the downside, I find that most of the time, one of the three downside options will be almost negligible to you, and even when it isn't it's usually fairly minor damage. The upside choices can be very good as well. +$3 with a minor penalty is solid, is mediocre. Gain a Duchy is really nice late, an extremely powerful option in the right kind of deck. Trashing your hand is great early, even if you only trash 3 cards out of it usually (the main upside here being, once you've done the trashing, later on the card still has powerful options, unlike e.g. Chapel).

Except for occasional late game Duchies, none of it's options are really that awesome, but the flexibilitiy is what really makes it decent. Add in that it's very strong in alternate VP games - Duke, Gardens, Silk Road off the top of my head are ones that Count is a good enabler for - and I think that it's in about the right place. Certainly, it shouldn't have appeared any earlier than part 3.

(Disclaimer: I've played games with Count maybe 20 times total, which might not be enough to have a full assessment of it. But in my experience, it's pretty good).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 06:57:16 pm by Tables »
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AJD

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #231 on: April 28, 2013, 06:52:47 pm »
+1

count is good with duke, but that's about it...

Count is also good with Rebuild!

Buying Count when you could have bought an additional Rebuild (or later a Duchy) is pretty bad?

I mean, you've gotta get those Duchies from someplace, right?

Count is probably a better support for Rebuild in Shelter games than Estate games. You don't want Rebuild too early because you've got nothing to rebuild yet. And I don't think you want to just buy a couple of Duchies before getting Rebuild either.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #232 on: April 28, 2013, 07:55:55 pm »
0

Yeah I'm surprised to see Rebuild so low. Like most of the typically Top 10 5$ cards out there, it's rarely ignorable. If you're not going for Rebuild yourself, you're probably doing something to cripple your Rebuild playing opponent, by say rushing to get 5 Duchies. This is why getting a Count in a Rebuild game can actually pay off. In a Rebuild mirror, you can get a game winning edge by having five different VP cards that were at Duchy level at some point, and Count helps you do that.

Count itself lends itself to being overrated, but I think it's fine where it is on the ratings. Like Band of Misfits, it's power lies in its flexibility and there's usually something positive you can do with it. It's probably best in slogs, where getting a Copper while gaining a Duchy is actually a strong play. The trash option has a similar issue with the trash options of Mint and Forge. Those cards trash so much more effectively when your hand is large, but they don't do anything to increase your hand size.
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #233 on: April 28, 2013, 09:05:43 pm »
0

Quote
I mean, you've gotta get those Duchies from someplace, right?

You get them by rebuilding Estates in the early game and buying them directly mid game (when they start running out). Rebuild is almost strictly better than Count here: it gives you a Duchy early/mid and a Province late, whereas Count can't get you a Province as your economy is likely shit.

Quote
You don't want Rebuild too early because you've got nothing to rebuild yet. And I don't think you want to just buy a couple of Duchies before getting Rebuild either.

Why is that? You have Overgrown Estate and you can just buy a regular Estate with the first crap hand you get after buying your first Rebuild. Hell, I'd open Rebuild/Estate given the chance.

I lose games with Rebuild more than average so it's possible that I'm way off, but I haven't the slightest clue as to why that would be!
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #234 on: April 28, 2013, 09:24:33 pm »
0

Rebuild is one of those cards whose power is difficult to assess. I think it is underrated in the list and probably overrated in the topic itself. It's not apparent that it really strongly combos with anything, and we don't have simulation data to show how strong it is on its own.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #235 on: April 28, 2013, 09:47:09 pm »
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Okay people, Rebuild isn't THAT good. Its not igg, lets slow down here. It should be ranked better but certainly not top 5, and I'm even doubtful on top 10.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #236 on: April 28, 2013, 10:00:36 pm »
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I think we need more time to really assess the strength of Rebuild. More than anything, it's scary. Against a player going for Rebuild, I think many players, including myself, would rather go for Rebuild themselves rather than try to beat it without buying it, even though doing so might be relatively simple on some boards.

From my experience, Rebuild on its own isn't as strong as it can be with appropriate support. Even adding something like Beggar to buy Duchies directly can make all the difference. Remember that you can't turn an Estate into a Province if all the Duchies are gone unless there are alt-VP cards in the kingdom
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #237 on: April 28, 2013, 10:41:05 pm »
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Well, I'm a guy who ranked Rebuild with 11.7%, and I do think that is too low.  But, it is not top 5 either.  I think my problem is it just isn't nearly as good in games with Shelters as it is in games without shelters... and it's part of the expansion with Shelters.  Now without ISO, you are limited to the expansions you have in person or buy on GOKO, so you will have more DA + Base.  In this case, the chance of having Rebuild in the kingdom and having shelters VS. just rebuild but no shelters goes up a LOT.  I maintain in games with shelters it is not that good.  But, I did underestimate the level in games without shelters, because all games we play with DA we use shelters, so I have not experienced it as much.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #238 on: April 28, 2013, 11:19:03 pm »
+2

Rebuild is a card that I suspect will become weaker as people become used to it, rather than better. My experience has been that most players (including me) feel obligated to go for Rebuild  mirrors, especially on boards that have a bit of a power vacuum. Your opponent greening early has a powerful psychological effect.

With more experience I think Rebuild focused strategies will be vulnerable to counter play by the opponent, because Rebuild isn't a terribly flexible card, and these decks tend to get a little stuck at the end of games (stagnating at a point where you only add $3 value to your deck a turn, not great). It is a strong card though, and we'll just have to wait and see if people can learn how to beat it.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #239 on: April 29, 2013, 12:19:33 am »
+4

I've played a lot of DA games since it's the 2nd expansion I got. Rebuild is good, but easily beaten if the non-rebuild player grabs enough duchies. Rebuilds are limited in Provinces by the number of Duchies they get. With the right cards, getting 5 Duchies is not impossible, especially if the Rebuild player has to buy Rebuilds too. Sure they can simply empty the Province pile, but they'll be slow at doing that and not increasing their points. Colonies are another story, and just crazy for Rebuild.

It is a game changer though, as said before.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #240 on: April 29, 2013, 12:38:55 am »
0

To be honest, Rebuild is one of my weakest cards. I lost when I buy it, and then I lose when I choose to ignore it. So, I honestly have no clue how to rank it.

With that said, HoP is an amazing card. I will admit, it took me more than a year to figure it out. It is a card that takes a bit of planning and analyzing the board, but once you "get" HoP, I would say it can be among the power $5's. It is a skill testing card.

Now, Catacombs and Rabble should be switched. Simply put, the attack of Rabble is stronger than Catacombs sifting. However, I will say there was one game that I actually intentionally bought Catacombs for the on-trash effect. I had a Salvager and used it to get a Province and then gain a Tournament from it, and that was actually my plan when I bought it. Actually, I did that twice in that game and won the Tournament race as a result. I was very proud because I felt that was something that only a very highly skilled Dominion player would be able to pull off. But, yah, Rabble is better than Catacombs.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #241 on: April 30, 2013, 12:22:32 pm »
+2

Count me with the people who think Count is overrated. Sure it does a lot of decent things, but nothing great. That works for $3-4 cards, but to be a good $5 card, it has to do something great.

Speaking of doing great things, Horn of Plenty is the biggest miss so far. It's a borderline top 5 $5 non-attack, imo (I guess it's #6 -- top 5 are Wharf, IGG, Governor, Duke, and HP). It's completely dominant so often. I think people overlook how useful gainers are in general, as I've said on all the lists. And HoP is the best gainer, because it maintains value the whole game. You get one with your first or second $5 hand, use it to gain cheap engine pieces, then expensive engine pieces, then more Horns, then Provinces! I think people think of it only as a card that functions in mega-turns, but forget how useful it is at setting up that mega-turn by building the engine for you.

Rabble is also too low. The nature of the attack does make it one of the weaker attacks, but it's still strong enough to be a top 20 $5 card.

And Bazaar continues to be overrated for reasons I still don't understand. I feel like Festival is clearly the best $5 village, and yet Bazaar is 6 spots higher. Yes the fact that it draws a card means that you can't have too many, but the buy is just so crucial for engines. The fact that Bazaar doesn't give a buy and can't be gained with the $3-$4 gainers makes it demand a lot more from the kingdom to be a viable village. Sure the rest of the time it's okay as a Peddler, but when you use it as a Peddler, that's in "who cares" territory for me.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 12:25:27 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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Fragasnap

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #242 on: April 30, 2013, 12:57:08 pm »
0

Prediction: Rebuild is Dark Ages's strongest $5. ...Rebuild is one of those cards that requires you to completely change your thinking for the game-- particularly if you start with three Estates.
Criminal.

I didn't get a vote in, but Rebuild is should be in the top 10 at least.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #243 on: April 30, 2013, 01:03:21 pm »
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I think people think of it only as a card that functions in mega-turns, but forget how useful it is at setting up that mega-turn by building the engine for you.

But even without a megaturn, Horn of Plenty is very useful, something that's often ignored.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #244 on: April 30, 2013, 01:49:28 pm »
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"I feel like Festival is clearly the best $5 village, and yet Bazaar is 6 spots higher."

Market, bazaar, and festival are pretty much balanced, certainly to the point where you need to look at a kingdom to see which is best. Personal preference is really down to play style.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #245 on: April 30, 2013, 02:25:44 pm »
+1

And BTW, doesn't HoP combo well with counterfeit ? Gain 2 victory cards (ideally provinces, why not dukes) instead of one and trash it anyway... like Feast and Pillage (after a Council Room) with Procession of course !
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #246 on: April 30, 2013, 02:28:09 pm »
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And BTW, doesn't HoP combo well with counterfeit ? Gain 2 victory cards (ideally provinces, why not dukes) instead of one and trash it anyway... like Feast and Pillage (after a Council Room) with Procession of course !

Partially.  Counterfeit doesn't help (other than adding another unique card) if you're not yet ready to gain VP with HoP.  Also, you have to be careful with how many different cards you have in play.  The second Counterfeited HoP may be missing one card -- HoP itself, after it gets trashed the first time.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #247 on: April 30, 2013, 03:32:05 pm »
+2

I actually don't like HoP all that much. Unless I want to gain $2s or $3s, I have been screwed far too often by drawing dead HoPs in one hand and then all of my engine components in another. It might deserve to be higher than this, but it's not quite an amazing $5.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #248 on: April 30, 2013, 03:50:46 pm »
0

Speaking of doing great things, Horn of Plenty is the biggest miss so far. It's a borderline top 5 $5 non-attack, imo (I guess it's #6 -- top 5 are Wharf, IGG, Governor, Duke, and HP). It's completely dominant so often. I think people overlook how useful gainers are in general, as I've said on all the lists. And HoP is the best gainer, because it maintains value the whole game. You get one with your first or second $5 hand, use it to gain cheap engine pieces, then expensive engine pieces, then more Horns, then Provinces! I think people think of it only as a card that functions in mega-turns, but forget how useful it is at setting up that mega-turn by building the engine for you.
This is spot-on, HoP is way too low here, although I wouldn't rate it quite as highly as you, I would put it somewhere in the 15-20 range I think.  The fact that it's effectively a non-terminal gainer makes it so great, it's even good for engines when you're not going for a HoP-fueled megaturn.

Question though: do you really think Duke is a top-5 non-attack $5 card?  I'm not saying that I think you're wrong necessarily, I'm just wondering why you think that because I would probably rank Tactician, Apprentice, Vault, Haggler, and perhaps Embassy above Duke.
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Fabian

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #249 on: April 30, 2013, 03:52:20 pm »
0

......Haggler?
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