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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 157385 times)

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PitzerMike

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #175 on: April 22, 2013, 07:41:08 am »
0

Also underrated are Pillage and City. All 3 of these cards have the ability to (at least reasonably often) completely dominate the board to the point where the whole game revolves around them, and this attribute keeps them in the top half of the $5 cards in my book.

I'm kind of sitting on the fence with City. My first impression was it should be lower because often it's just a VERY expensive village. But then again if there's a nice engine on the board and the only thing you need to make it work is a village, then you won't mind too much whether it's expensive or not.
And on the other hand there are those boards where it completely dominates.
So overall I guess I'm fine with where it's sitting at.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #176 on: April 22, 2013, 09:43:32 am »
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Pillage is strong, especially early in the game when every turn matters. Discarding key attack cards, Silvers and Golds or other important parts to their decks slows them down. Plus you get the spoils that boost your deck. I think of it as a way to get a turn ahead of your opponent.

And there's always the chance of discarding your opponent's Pillage.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #177 on: April 22, 2013, 10:10:09 am »
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Two cards stick out at me here: City and Junk Dealer.

Everyone knows how awesome level 3 Cities are. They're amazing. And Level 2 Cities are great too. But how often do you see them? Level 2 you probably see pretty often, but it's rare you can properly balance adding a lot of village+labs to a deck that previously didn't have them, without suddenly having a lot of wasted spare actions - so often, I find, it's only marginally better than a lab, which you can only get late. Level 3 cities are even rarer, and it's unusual you play them for more than 2-3 turns. Yes, if the game is working towards them, you need to either end it quick, or split them yourselves, but I find those situations are increasingly rare, especially when playing with all expansions, lowering the chance of colony games to about 1/5 (given City is in the game).

Junk Dealer, on the other hand, I find myself considering, and almost always buying, in just about every game it's in. It's an extremely nice card, giving you continued economy while trashing anything and everything. It's great in cursing games, and against top deck attacks (early on at least). Obviously it has weak points, but it's seemed like an extremely strong DA card in my experience. Ironically I actually put it 38th on my list, but I'd probably shove it up to top 20 now.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #178 on: April 22, 2013, 10:34:23 am »
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Junk Dealer, on the other hand, I find myself considering, and almost always buying, in just about every game it's in. It's an extremely nice card, giving you continued economy while trashing anything and everything. It's great in cursing games, and against top deck attacks (early on at least). Obviously it has weak points, but it's seemed like an extremely strong DA card in my experience. Ironically I actually put it 38th on my list, but I'd probably shove it up to top 20 now.

I agree on Junk Dealer. It's great for trashing and keeps economy, as well as being non-terminal and drawing before you trash. I've even seen a friend of mine run an engine on Fortress and Junk Dealers. It was basically immune to junking attacks (works with the name :P).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #179 on: April 22, 2013, 11:05:43 am »
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For some reason I've never equated Junk Dealer to Upgrade.  Don't know how I missed that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #180 on: April 22, 2013, 11:35:26 am »
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I seem to find Junk Dealer more useful than upgrade.  Though perhaps it's because I think of Upgrade as, well, something to deal with Junk and occasionally find the gaining to be detrimental (particularly with Dark Ages when I don't want Poor Houses or don't want the available $2 cards).  Junk Dealer seems much better in the early game with the extra $1 that turn.  Upgrades can turn starting estates into silvers, but the extra $1 can help you buy the cards you need earlier.  Mid- or late-game, Upgrade is probably better because it can turn cards that have outlived their usefulness into more useful cards (and get victory cards).  I don't find myself doing this a whole lot, though.. but I'm probably not using it to its full utility.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #181 on: April 22, 2013, 12:46:52 pm »
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Upgrade is usually better than Junk Dealer when trashing Rats/Fortress/Cultist/Feodum. If nothing else, that makes the whole Upgrade-your-Upgrade-to-Gold thing easier. Junk Dealer still rocks though.

Knights are good if you have more knights than your opponent and can play them often. Even if you fall behind on provinces, If you do something crazy like KC-Knight to trash a bunch of their cards and then buy out all the duchies, you might be able to pull a come-from-behind victory. It really sucks to lose your knights to other knights though. Often you'll get knights just because your opponent got them, but both players might have been better off avoiding them altogether. I find it weird than Sir Martin only costs 4$. Is he really that much worse than the card gaining one or the VP one or the on trash one? Heck, when there are cost reducers or peddlers, I want Sir Martin most of all, but then I lose him to some other knight.

All in all, the knights are pretty unreliable and are most probably not underrated here.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 01:00:05 pm by markusin »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #182 on: April 22, 2013, 12:56:46 pm »
+2

Well, I strongly disagree. On the Swindler point, I did mention Swindler (bolded above)! I just wasn't counting it as a trashing attack. Because the thing that's so destructive about Swindler isn't that it trashes your cards, it that it replaces them with bad cards in mandatory fashion. I mean, if Swindler just trashed your Coppers, that would actually be a good thing usually. No, what it does that's really strong is it replaces them with Curses. In which case, it's really a discounted Witch that actually hurts your economy more (because you lose a Treasure and gain a Curse), and can also grind $5 Actions into useless Duchies or vice versa. Of course it has the drawback of possibly hitting an Estate, or a $3 or $4 card that doesn't matter as much if it gets swindled. Swindler is not great because it trashes your opponent's cards, it's great because it fills their deck with cards they don't want. It's closer to Jester than Saboteur, in my mind.
If Swindler didn't trash and just gave junk (like reveal a card and gain one of equal value), it would still be good -- mostly as a curser -- but not nearly as good as it is now. Non-trashing Swindler could be handled just fine with trashing. Swindler as it is now kills engines. If all your Worker's Villages turn into Coppersmiths, you're screwed, whereas if you are given a few Coppersmiths without losing your engine pieces, you can just trash them, no problem.

And Jester is a completely different story than Swindler. Jester is about the gaining. The "attack" part is generally innocuous. If you give a Curse to win by 1 point, then it's good, but for the most part, if you're not gaining stuff with Jester, it's not the best $5 card to have.

Quote
City and Pillage are nice sometimes, but everything ahead of them is nice more often. Well, not Knights. Seriously, they are so bad.
There's "nice" and then there's "powerful". Venture or Merchant Ship might be "nice" more often, but in a kind of "who cares" kind of way. The presence of City and Pillage has to completely alter the way you evaluate the board.

Everyone knows how awesome level 3 Cities are. They're amazing. And Level 2 Cities are great too. But how often do you see them? Level 2 you probably see pretty often, but it's rare you can properly balance adding a lot of village+labs to a deck that previously didn't have them, without suddenly having a lot of wasted spare actions - so often, I find, it's only marginally better than a lab, which you can only get late. Level 3 cities are even rarer, and it's unusual you play them for more than 2-3 turns. Yes, if the game is working towards them, you need to either end it quick, or split them yourselves, but I find those situations are increasingly rare, especially when playing with all expansions, lowering the chance of colony games to about 1/5 (given City is in the game).
I think one of the problems we get into with these lists is differences in valuing what a card does when you play it versus how impactful it was on the general strategic decisions you made in the game. Even if you don't hit level 3 Cities often, the threat of this impacts the way you play the game. If your opponent is getting the majority of the Cities, you have to be careful not to put piles too close to ending and maintain some type of lead so that you can survive when their deck goes into beast-mode. And playing them as simple villages may not be exciting, but a lot of times it's downright crucial. Villages are simply really important cards.

I think people sometimes have a negative opinion of Cities because strategies like just massing Cities without buying any other actions turn out really bad. Well this is to be expected. They're villages! If you're not using the extra actions, then you really are just getting cantrips that eventually turn into Labs when it's too late. That is bad. But that's not what Cities are supposed to be...
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achmed_sender

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #183 on: April 22, 2013, 01:37:24 pm »
+1

The Dark Ages cards seem all pretty low to me, except Pillage which I would rate about the same.

Junk Dealer is normally on par with Upgrade, maybe better at the begin and wit curses, and weaker in engines and fancy combos.

Counterfeit is about rank 15-20 for me, it's so much better than Moneylender! Example: You want to hit 7 asap for KC, Forge, whatever. So you can just decide to trash a silver instead a copper. And don't forget nice synergies with cards like Fools Gold, Bank (yes with buy!) or potion.
Further, because of being treasure, it's much easier to line up multiple counterfeits for faster trashing or brutal conterfeit-counerfeit-platinum-platinum (yes you can call it megaturn). At the end if the game it changes much more into Salvager-for-treasures. And yes, don't foget the +buy, the only treasure +buy aside Contraband

And yes, Knights are really devasting, if theres a solid engine option, or bridge, or, but can also countered by tons of cards like reactions, silver flood cards,..., but still way higher than it is, I'd say 20th.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #184 on: April 22, 2013, 02:18:06 pm »
0

Well, I strongly disagree. On the Swindler point, I did mention Swindler (bolded above)! I just wasn't counting it as a trashing attack. Because the thing that's so destructive about Swindler isn't that it trashes your cards, it that it replaces them with bad cards in mandatory fashion. I mean, if Swindler just trashed your Coppers, that would actually be a good thing usually. No, what it does that's really strong is it replaces them with Curses. In which case, it's really a discounted Witch that actually hurts your economy more (because you lose a Treasure and gain a Curse), and can also grind $5 Actions into useless Duchies or vice versa. Of course it has the drawback of possibly hitting an Estate, or a $3 or $4 card that doesn't matter as much if it gets swindled. Swindler is not great because it trashes your opponent's cards, it's great because it fills their deck with cards they don't want. It's closer to Jester than Saboteur, in my mind.
If Swindler didn't trash and just gave junk (like reveal a card and gain one of equal value), it would still be good -- mostly as a curser -- but not nearly as good as it is now. Non-trashing Swindler could be handled just fine with trashing. Swindler as it is now kills engines. If all your Worker's Villages turn into Coppersmiths, you're screwed, whereas if you are given a few Coppersmiths without losing your engine pieces, you can just trash them, no problem.

Swindler does hurt engines, but I maintain that it's not because it trashes your Workers Villages. Saboteur does that, does Saboteur destroy engines? Not really. Occasionally, if you can play it a lot, yes it does. Swindler hurts your deck because it deals out cards you don't want, mainly Curses and early Duchies. It's primarily a junking attack.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #185 on: April 22, 2013, 02:38:16 pm »
0

Well, I strongly disagree. On the Swindler point, I did mention Swindler (bolded above)! I just wasn't counting it as a trashing attack. Because the thing that's so destructive about Swindler isn't that it trashes your cards, it that it replaces them with bad cards in mandatory fashion. I mean, if Swindler just trashed your Coppers, that would actually be a good thing usually. No, what it does that's really strong is it replaces them with Curses. In which case, it's really a discounted Witch that actually hurts your economy more (because you lose a Treasure and gain a Curse), and can also grind $5 Actions into useless Duchies or vice versa. Of course it has the drawback of possibly hitting an Estate, or a $3 or $4 card that doesn't matter as much if it gets swindled. Swindler is not great because it trashes your opponent's cards, it's great because it fills their deck with cards they don't want. It's closer to Jester than Saboteur, in my mind.
If Swindler didn't trash and just gave junk (like reveal a card and gain one of equal value), it would still be good -- mostly as a curser -- but not nearly as good as it is now. Non-trashing Swindler could be handled just fine with trashing. Swindler as it is now kills engines. If all your Worker's Villages turn into Coppersmiths, you're screwed, whereas if you are given a few Coppersmiths without losing your engine pieces, you can just trash them, no problem.

Swindler does hurt engines, but I maintain that it's not because it trashes your Workers Villages. Saboteur does that, does Saboteur destroy engines? Not really. Occasionally, if you can play it a lot, yes it does. Swindler hurts your deck because it deals out cards you don't want, mainly Curses and early Duchies. It's primarily a junking attack.

But junking attacks don't stop engines, and Swindler does. So clearly the trashing is doing some of the heavy lifting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #186 on: April 22, 2013, 02:53:32 pm »
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But junking attacks don't stop engines, and Swindler does. So clearly the trashing is doing some of the heavy lifting.

I tend not to pursue engines when junking attacks are present (with some exceptions: Chapel, Ambassador, Remake, etc.). Is that wrong? Are you saying that the presence of junking attacks has no impact on your decision whether to pursue an engine strategy?
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #187 on: April 22, 2013, 02:56:52 pm »
0

Well, I strongly disagree. On the Swindler point, I did mention Swindler (bolded above)! I just wasn't counting it as a trashing attack. Because the thing that's so destructive about Swindler isn't that it trashes your cards, it that it replaces them with bad cards in mandatory fashion. I mean, if Swindler just trashed your Coppers, that would actually be a good thing usually. No, what it does that's really strong is it replaces them with Curses. In which case, it's really a discounted Witch that actually hurts your economy more (because you lose a Treasure and gain a Curse), and can also grind $5 Actions into useless Duchies or vice versa. Of course it has the drawback of possibly hitting an Estate, or a $3 or $4 card that doesn't matter as much if it gets swindled. Swindler is not great because it trashes your opponent's cards, it's great because it fills their deck with cards they don't want. It's closer to Jester than Saboteur, in my mind.
If Swindler didn't trash and just gave junk (like reveal a card and gain one of equal value), it would still be good -- mostly as a curser -- but not nearly as good as it is now. Non-trashing Swindler could be handled just fine with trashing. Swindler as it is now kills engines. If all your Worker's Villages turn into Coppersmiths, you're screwed, whereas if you are given a few Coppersmiths without losing your engine pieces, you can just trash them, no problem.

Swindler does hurt engines, but I maintain that it's not because it trashes your Workers Villages. Saboteur does that, does Saboteur destroy engines? Not really. Occasionally, if you can play it a lot, yes it does. Swindler hurts your deck because it deals out cards you don't want, mainly Curses and early Duchies. It's primarily a junking attack.

But junking attacks don't stop engines, and Swindler does. So clearly the trashing is doing some of the heavy lifting.

? Junking attacks do stop engines, or at least slow them. Well, you have to deal with the junk. If you can effectively trash the junk, sure, you can still fire an engine. But you can't just ignore the junk and still go engine. If you go for an engine against Witch, or IGG, or Swindler, and don't contest the junking or pick up a card that neutralizes the junk, your engine will fail 90% of the time. And, this demonstrates my point well, because if you try to build an engine and your opponent tries to counter with Saboteur... you will probably be fine. You don't need to course correct nearly as much as when you are facing junking. So I still say that junking is much worse than trashing in general, and against engines, and the junking aspect of Swindler is more harmful than the trashing aspect.

Now, Swindler is certainly effective as well because it can trash your good cards, don't get me wrong. I think that ha something to do with the fact that Swindler has a better vanilla bonus than Saboteur, and is cheaper, so it's just a ridiculously effective little card. But its Witch effect hurts more than its Saboteur effect.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #188 on: April 22, 2013, 02:57:35 pm »
0

But junking attacks don't stop engines, and Swindler does. So clearly the trashing is doing some of the heavy lifting.

I tend not to pursue engines when junking attacks are present (with some exceptions: Chapel, Ambassador, Remake, etc.). Is that wrong? Are you saying that the presence of junking attacks has no impact on your decision whether to pursue an engine strategy?

Yeah, I think that comment was totally wrong. Junking attacks DO stop engines, far more than trashing attacks.
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #189 on: April 22, 2013, 03:14:41 pm »
+1

Upgrade is usually better than Junk Dealer when trashing Rats/Fortress/Cultist/Feodum. If nothing else, that makes the whole Upgrade-your-Upgrade-to-Gold thing easier. Junk Dealer still rocks though.

Knights are good if you have more knights than your opponent and can play them often. Even if you fall behind on provinces, If you do something crazy like KC-Knight to trash a bunch of their cards and then buy out all the duchies, you might be able to pull a come-from-behind victory. It really sucks to lose your knights to other knights though. Often you'll get knights just because your opponent got them, but both players might have been better off avoiding them altogether. I find it weird than Sir Martin only costs 4$. Is he really that much worse than the card gaining one or the VP one or the on trash one? Heck, when there are cost reducers or peddlers, I want Sir Martin most of all, but then I lose him to some other knight.

All in all, the knights are pretty unreliable and are most probably not underrated here.

This discussion of knights, however, indicates how cool the concept is.  If you had a kingdom and you had a bunch of knights and your neighboring kingdoms did not, then you could just clobber everyone.  So everyone else has to get knights too.  But then the knights go up against the knights in a big ugly calvary charge, wash each other out, and the battle gets decided by what's left (infantry, archers, whatever).  Unless of course someone has better knights, then they come out with a few surviving and have the upper hand in the battle.

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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #190 on: April 22, 2013, 03:32:58 pm »
0

But junking attacks don't stop engines, and Swindler does. So clearly the trashing is doing some of the heavy lifting.

I tend not to pursue engines when junking attacks are present (with some exceptions: Chapel, Ambassador, Remake, etc.). Is that wrong? Are you saying that the presence of junking attacks has no impact on your decision whether to pursue an engine strategy?

In fact I think junking attacks (and attacks in general) tend to FAVOR engines for a couple reasons:
1. The slow the game down. This gives engines more time to build up while the other player can't just rush down Provinces
2. When you have an engine, there are more ways of mitigating the attack. You draw more cards, so it's easier to line up your junk with your trasher.

? Junking attacks do stop engines, or at least slow them. Well, you have to deal with the junk. If you can effectively trash the junk, sure, you can still fire an engine. But you can't just ignore the junk and still go engine. If you go for an engine against Witch, or IGG, or Swindler, and don't contest the junking or pick up a card that neutralizes the junk, your engine will fail 90% of the time. And, this demonstrates my point well, because if you try to build an engine and your opponent tries to counter with Saboteur... you will probably be fine. You don't need to course correct nearly as much as when you are facing junking. So I still say that junking is much worse than trashing in general, and against engines, and the junking aspect of Swindler is more harmful than the trashing aspect.
Of course you can't ignore junk and go engine. But usually there's some way of dealing with the junk, and it's easier to deal with it in an engine. Swindler is a completely different beast because it actually strikes at the engine pieces themselves.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #191 on: April 22, 2013, 03:38:59 pm »
0

Of course you can't ignore junk and go engine. But usually there's some way of dealing with the junk, and it's easier to deal with it in an engine. Swindler is a completely different beast because it actually strikes at the engine pieces themselves.

But if all Swindler did was strike at your engine pieces, you could very often just ignore it, the same way you ignore Saboteur. In reality, you can never ignore Swindler because it destroys your deck like a Witch or a Mountebank or a Cultist, with some Saboteur mixed in.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #192 on: April 22, 2013, 03:52:53 pm »
+2

I don't know why you guys are arguing so hard on this. Clearly, it's both a junker and a trasher, and if it did only one or the other, it wouldn't be nearly so good. Also, it clearly costs 3, yet is dominating this part of the discussion. Well, I guess this is part 3....

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #193 on: April 22, 2013, 04:11:55 pm »
0

I don't know why you guys are arguing so hard on this. Clearly, it's both a junker and a trasher, and if it did only one or the other, it wouldn't be nearly so good. Also, it clearly costs 3, yet is dominating this part of the discussion. Well, I guess this is part 3....

I think this all came about from our disagreement on the nature of trashing attacks which have now all showed up, Saboteur, Rogue, and Knights. I'm really dismissive of trashing attacks (although Saboteur is so over-maligned that it's probably actually underrated, it's still not a very good card), and he was saying but look at Swindler, it's so good! And I was saying it's good because it's a junker, etc. And truly it is good because it does both, but realistically, I'm usually buying Swindler because I want to give my opponent Curses or early Duchies, because the junking is disruptive. Junking is really the top Dominion priority IMO.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #194 on: April 22, 2013, 04:33:09 pm »
0

And my point is that trashing attacks are not inherently bad. They can be strong (look at Swindler). Many of the existing ones are weak, but not because they are trashing attacks. I think Knights, while not nearly as good as Swindler, are much better than Saboteur and Rogue, and deserve to be in the top half of $5 cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #195 on: April 22, 2013, 04:34:32 pm »
0

Junking is really the top Dominion priority IMO.

I think that's only true because it's so much more consistent than trashing attacks. If I play a Witch, you always get a bad card. If I play a Knight, you sometimes lose a good card. An attack giving a curse is like a trashing attack trashing a Laboratory.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #196 on: April 22, 2013, 04:55:33 pm »
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Junking is really the top Dominion priority IMO.

I think that's only true because it's so much more consistent than trashing attacks. If I play a Witch, you always get a bad card. If I play a Knight, you sometimes lose a good card. An attack giving a curse is like a trashing attack trashing a Laboratory.

Well true, but... that doesn't make me wrong. You're right that trashing attacks are inconsistent. That's part of what makes them bad. I mean look, if you lump all the trashing attacks together--Thief, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand, Rogue, Saboteur, Knights, Swindler--you have a collection of some the weakest cards in the game. The star of the group is Swindler, which is also and primarily a junker.

And my point is that trashing attacks are not inherently bad. They can be strong (look at Swindler). Many of the existing ones are weak, but not because they are trashing attacks. I think Knights, while not nearly as good as Swindler, are much better than Saboteur and Rogue, and deserve to be in the top half of $5 cards.

Well agree to disagree. Maybe after I play 100 games with Knights I'll think better of them.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #197 on: April 22, 2013, 05:04:31 pm »
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Well true, but... that doesn't make me wrong. You're right that trashing attacks are inconsistent. That's part of what makes them bad. I mean look, if you lump all the trashing attacks together--Thief, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand, Rogue, Saboteur, Knights, Swindler--you have a collection of some the weakest cards in the game. The star of the group is Swindler, which is also and primarily a junker.

Really, I wasn't disagreeing with you; I was just noticing myself that the reason that the junking attacks that exist are so much more important than the trashing attacks that exist is because the junking attacks always work, and the trashing attacks don't; it's not necessarily the fact that 'junking' in a vacuum is stronger than 'trashing'.
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DG

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #198 on: April 22, 2013, 05:08:34 pm »
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Quote
I mean look, if you lump all the trashing attacks together--Thief, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand, Rogue, Saboteur, Knights, Swindler--you have a collection of some the weakest cards in the game."

Correction. Some of the weaker cards in 2 player games.
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math

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #199 on: April 22, 2013, 05:11:16 pm »
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It seems to me that junking attacks are inherently reliable, whereas trashing attacks are swingy.  The only trashing attack that's not a junking attack that is perfectly reliable is Saboteur, and it is nerfed by letting the opponent take a cheaper card and not giving any benefit to you.  If it didn't give the opponent anything and gave you some small bonus like the knights, it would be one of the most powerful attacks in the game.  This, again, suggests that junking is not automatically more powerful than trashing; junking is simply more reliable.
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