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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 157398 times)

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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #150 on: April 19, 2013, 05:35:44 pm »
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I don't know. My mind isn't totally made up on the issue. Council Room and Library are not my favorite draw cards. Well, I want to like Library, but it never seems to work as well as you'd want.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #151 on: April 19, 2013, 05:40:34 pm »
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I suppose we'll agree to disagree, but CR's popular buys indicate that Trading Post is not as bad of a card as you make it out to be.
How much are those stats skewed by games where Trading Post is the only trasher, so even though it's not good you still may want to go for it because you really need trashing?

I mean, more than once I've used Trading Post to successfully help set up a Scrying Pool engine when there were no other trashers on the board.  But that only worked because even comparatively weak trashing helps Scrying Pool a lot.  It was the Pools that made my TP buy good, more than TP itself.  That's how I see it, maybe I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 05:42:35 pm by jaybeez »
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #152 on: April 19, 2013, 05:49:19 pm »
+3

I suppose we'll agree to disagree, but CR's popular buys indicate that Trading Post is not as bad of a card as you make it out to be.
How much are those stats skewed by games where Trading Post is the only trasher, so even though it's not good you still may want to go for it because you really need trashing?

I mean, more than once I've used Trading Post to successfully help set up a Scrying Pool engine when there were no other trashers on the board.  But that only worked because even comparatively weak trashing helps Scrying Pool a lot.  It was the Pools that made my TP buy good, more than TP itself.  That's how I see it, maybe I'm wrong.

That's not SKEWING the stats, though. Those situations where TP is the only trasher should count toward its consideration. If that's one of the things that gives it a boost (I think it is, in a very very small way), than yes, it deserves that credit. That's a situation that should be accounted for.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #153 on: April 19, 2013, 06:35:37 pm »
+1

The only real problem with Trading Post is that it costs $5, and there are often other trashers that cost less, and thus can usually be obtained quicker. If you have a 5/2 opening, a lot of the time you're going to prefer Trading Post to another trasher, but if you open with another trasher, then adding the Trading Post doesn't seem that useful. I do think that Trading Post is one of the best, if not the best trasher to have for Lab-type engines which don't need to get as tight as +cards/+actions engines. As long as you have a little drawing, it's easy to hit effective Trading Posts that can quickly collapse all your starting cards into 5 Silvers, which provides most of the economy you need while getting your deck slim enough to work.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #154 on: April 19, 2013, 09:59:50 pm »
0

I suppose we'll agree to disagree, but CR's popular buys indicate that Trading Post is not as bad of a card as you make it out to be.
How much are those stats skewed by games where Trading Post is the only trasher, so even though it's not good you still may want to go for it because you really need trashing?

I mean, more than once I've used Trading Post to successfully help set up a Scrying Pool engine when there were no other trashers on the board.  But that only worked because even comparatively weak trashing helps Scrying Pool a lot.  It was the Pools that made my TP buy good, more than TP itself.  That's how I see it, maybe I'm wrong.

That's not SKEWING the stats, though. Those situations where TP is the only trasher should count toward its consideration. If that's one of the things that gives it a boost (I think it is, in a very very small way), than yes, it deserves that credit. That's a situation that should be accounted for.
You're right.  But I guess the point I was trying to make (which I did a poor job of) is this: how much do those stats really tell us about the strength of TP?  The frequency at which it is bought certainly has a correlative relationship with how strong a card it is.  But how close is that correlation?  To pick what might be a bad example, Fishing Village gets bought more than Ambassador because it's nice to have lots of Fishing Villages, whereas you almost never need more than two Ambassadors and most times you only want one.  Ambassador is definitely the stronger card, even if that particular statistic doesn't demonstrate that fact.

I mean, Trading Post has a higher Win Rate With on CR than Highway, Horn of Plenty, Duke.  It has a lower Win Rate Without than Jester, Bazaar, and HoP and Highway again.  That doesn't necessarily mean that TP is a better card though.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #155 on: April 19, 2013, 11:31:17 pm »
+1

No, it doesn't, but it strongly suggests that Trading Post is roughly in the same tier of cards as the examples that you just brought up. My point is that Trading Post is not a $5 card that deserves to be in the bottom-one-third-tier. You can't just wave your hand and say, oh, statistics don't matter.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #156 on: April 20, 2013, 11:35:43 am »
0

No, it doesn't, but it strongly suggests that Trading Post is roughly in the same tier of cards as the examples that you just brought up. My point is that Trading Post is not a $5 card that deserves to be in the bottom-one-third-tier. You can't just wave your hand and say, oh, statistics don't matter.
As a statistician, I can! These statistics aren't strong indicators of what you say they are - it's a classic example of using a statistic that is set up over a very particular population and trying to (invalidly - this is always invalid) apply them to a different population. Basically, here, they're inflating trading post in a couple of ways. First is that if they are both or neither getting trading post, things are drawn toward 50%, which simply dilutes things. More important is that most of these games are played a somewhat lower level - in which case, there are some advantages to trading post. First of all, it's incredibly simple to play - there's almost never a decision on it that isn't a no-brainer, and while there is a little bit of fancy stuff you can do, it isn't much. Second, it thrives in games played where there is that little bit of extra slack because the opponent isn't being so sharp - i.e. you're getting an extra shuffle, or maybe just half a shuffle, but this is enough to make the card a good bit better, since one of its two big flaws is that you can't get it fast enough. And again, the other issue is that it isn't a bad card, just other things are better. Still, here we can see it's getting bought in less than half of games, and people do better without it than with it. It clearly is below-par, and we're mostly quibbling over 5-10 spots here.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2013, 07:29:00 pm »
0

No, it doesn't, but it strongly suggests that Trading Post is roughly in the same tier of cards as the examples that you just brought up. My point is that Trading Post is not a $5 card that deserves to be in the bottom-one-third-tier. You can't just wave your hand and say, oh, statistics don't matter.
As a statistician, I can! These statistics aren't strong indicators of what you say they are - it's a classic example of using a statistic that is set up over a very particular population and trying to (invalidly - this is always invalid) apply them to a different population. Basically, here, they're inflating trading post in a couple of ways. First is that if they are both or neither getting trading post, things are drawn toward 50%, which simply dilutes things. More important is that most of these games are played a somewhat lower level - in which case, there are some advantages to trading post. First of all, it's incredibly simple to play - there's almost never a decision on it that isn't a no-brainer, and while there is a little bit of fancy stuff you can do, it isn't much. Second, it thrives in games played where there is that little bit of extra slack because the opponent isn't being so sharp - i.e. you're getting an extra shuffle, or maybe just half a shuffle, but this is enough to make the card a good bit better, since one of its two big flaws is that you can't get it fast enough. And again, the other issue is that it isn't a bad card, just other things are better. Still, here we can see it's getting bought in less than half of games, and people do better without it than with it. It clearly is below-par, and we're mostly quibbling over 5-10 spots here.

Another thing worth noting is, let's roll with the assumption that it's a strong opener with 5/2, and bad to get otherwise. Then, there's a good chance a large amount of people buying it will be on those 5/2 hands - when it is good to get. This would skew it's win rate with upwards and win rate without downwards.

The question from here becomes, "How strong an opener at 5/2 is it, and how bad is it afterwards?" That's a question I'm sure you guys can tackle far better than I can.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #158 on: April 20, 2013, 07:30:33 pm »
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No, it doesn't, but it strongly suggests that Trading Post is roughly in the same tier of cards as the examples that you just brought up. My point is that Trading Post is not a $5 card that deserves to be in the bottom-one-third-tier. You can't just wave your hand and say, oh, statistics don't matter.
As a statistician, I can! These statistics aren't strong indicators of what you say they are - it's a classic example of using a statistic that is set up over a very particular population and trying to (invalidly - this is always invalid) apply them to a different population. Basically, here, they're inflating trading post in a couple of ways. First is that if they are both or neither getting trading post, things are drawn toward 50%, which simply dilutes things. More important is that most of these games are played a somewhat lower level - in which case, there are some advantages to trading post. First of all, it's incredibly simple to play - there's almost never a decision on it that isn't a no-brainer, and while there is a little bit of fancy stuff you can do, it isn't much. Second, it thrives in games played where there is that little bit of extra slack because the opponent isn't being so sharp - i.e. you're getting an extra shuffle, or maybe just half a shuffle, but this is enough to make the card a good bit better, since one of its two big flaws is that you can't get it fast enough. And again, the other issue is that it isn't a bad card, just other things are better. Still, here we can see it's getting bought in less than half of games, and people do better without it than with it. It clearly is below-par, and we're mostly quibbling over 5-10 spots here.

Another thing worth noting is, let's roll with the assumption that it's a strong opener with 5/2, and bad to get otherwise. Then, there's a good chance a large amount of people buying it will be on those 5/2 hands - when it is good to get. This would skew it's win rate with upwards and win rate without downwards.

The question from here becomes, "How strong an opener at 5/2 is it, and how bad is it afterwards?" That's a question I'm sure you guys can tackle far better than I can.
Well, but if that's what it is, as in the previous 'skewing' comment, then it deserves the credit.

Also, Depends on the Kingdom.

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #159 on: April 20, 2013, 07:58:10 pm »
0

As a statistician, I can! These statistics aren't strong indicators of what you say they are - it's a classic example of using a statistic that is set up over a very particular population and trying to (invalidly - this is always invalid) apply them to a different population.

It is certainly a stronger indicator than "WanderingWinder says" or "dondon says."
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #160 on: April 21, 2013, 12:07:44 am »
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As a statistician, I can! These statistics aren't strong indicators of what you say they are - it's a classic example of using a statistic that is set up over a very particular population and trying to (invalidly - this is always invalid) apply them to a different population.

It is certainly a stronger indicator than "WanderingWinder says" or "dondon says."

I disagree. I think "WanderingWinder says" and "dondon says" are actually stronger indicators...
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #161 on: April 21, 2013, 02:56:20 am »
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Not when they say opposite things ;)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #162 on: April 21, 2013, 08:37:01 am »
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Not when they say opposite things ;)
Well, if it helps, I think just 'dondon says' is a stronger indicator - even if you happen to be slightly off in this particular instance. ;)

The reason is... well, I am sure you are saying that it's better because it's more objective. But the problem is, for a statistic to be good, it has to be established that it has meaning, that it actually shows you just what it is that you are looking for. And nobody has done that for these statistics. I mean, I could assign a card to each starting hitter, positions 2-6, in the major leagues and then loo at those guys' on-base percentage for the next year, and then proclaim that they show something. Of course, I think CR stats will be more relevant than that, but but still not actually particularly relevant. I don't think they're entirely nothing, but the correlation is very weak and general.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #163 on: April 21, 2013, 09:41:57 pm »
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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225805#msg225805

Part 3/6 is online. I'm looking forward to hear your thoughts.

One quick note from me. As already said in the last part, I'm dissappointed Counterfeit being so low. I rated at #13. While I think it's proabably a bit high, I'm pretty sure it's a Top 20 card.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #164 on: April 21, 2013, 10:20:06 pm »
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Pillage and Knights are good here.  I think Junk Dealer should be higher than Upgrade, but maybe I'm just bad with Upgrade.

Band of Misfits is too low.  You do need to consider what $3-4 cards are available, but when it shines, it's just so good.  If you're building any sort of engine that uses cheap components, this is practically a must-buy if you have $5 in the absence of other power cards.  It's just so flexible.

Counterfeit should definitely be higher.  At worst, it's a non-terminal Moneylender, and it can provide critical huge amounts of cash and +Buy for game-winning turns.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #165 on: April 21, 2013, 10:49:39 pm »
+2

Band of Misfits is criminally underrated here. I would put it higher than all these other cards, at least. I'm surprised to see Junk Dealer already as well, but it's probably close to where it needs to be. Market is better than Trading Post, but that's probably just Trading Post getting overranked, not market getting underranked.

I'm not of the opinion that Counterfeit is so game warpingly good, but I could be wrong. I don't have a lot of experience with it.

City and Venture got exactly what they deserved. Merchant Ship is a shade more contentious, I'll have to see what comes next, but I'm okay with its placement.

I would put Knights last on this list, behind even Pillage. I would probably place several cards from the last list above them. Not every Knight is the one that makes your opponent discard or the one that draws you two cards, you know. There's the stupid gaining one, the VP one that never survives the whole game, the one that becomes a Gold... they are really terrible.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #166 on: April 21, 2013, 11:44:13 pm »
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I think I'm happy with the rankings so far except for maybe Junk dealer, which I don't really like.
Quote
I'm not of the opinion that Counterfeit is so game warpingly good, but I could be wrong. I don't have a lot of experience with it.
At the start of the game it has the same effect as Moneylender, but it doesn't cost an action, and gives you a +buy, towards the end of the game you can counterfeit silvers or golds to reach for Province or Province+Duchy (or to stretch for platinum/colony), or at least just take the $1 and +buy, so for sure its pretty powerful.
Quote
I would put Knights last on this list, behind even Pillage.
Knights deserves the placement. I've seen more than one engine game dissolve into a knights rush, and at least one where my entire engine got chewed up by knights and there was nothing I could do about it. If played correctly Knights are much, much worse than saboteur. Of course, its not as good as the better attack cards like Mountebank, so I think it deserves its ranking. Honestly, if anything I think Junk Dealer is slightly overrated but I guess it depends on the kingdomTM
If anything, Pillage is overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #167 on: April 22, 2013, 12:46:50 am »
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I think I'm happy with the rankings so far except for maybe Junk dealer, which I don't really like.
Quote
I'm not of the opinion that Counterfeit is so game warpingly good, but I could be wrong. I don't have a lot of experience with it.
At the start of the game it has the same effect as Moneylender, but it doesn't cost an action, and gives you a +buy, towards the end of the game you can counterfeit silvers or golds to reach for Province or Province+Duchy (or to stretch for platinum/colony), or at least just take the $1 and +buy, so for sure its pretty powerful.
Quote
I would put Knights last on this list, behind even Pillage.
Knights deserves the placement. I've seen more than one engine game dissolve into a knights rush, and at least one where my entire engine got chewed up by knights and there was nothing I could do about it. If played correctly Knights are much, much worse than saboteur. Of course, its not as good as the better attack cards like Mountebank, so I think it deserves its ranking. Honestly, if anything I think Junk Dealer is slightly overrated but I guess it depends on the kingdomTM
If anything, Pillage is overrated.

Sure, but Counterfeit is more expensive than Moneylender in a non-trivial way. There are a lot of great, less expensive cards, that also gobble up your Copper efficiently.

As for Knights, fine, I'm sure they are good some of the time, if you have like a ton of extra actions or something, and they do hurt engines. But hey, a  lot of times, the bad one is on top to begin with. And you don't want to buy the bad one--then your opponent will get the good one! And I mean it's not even that good Yeah, better than Saboteur, but still not very good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #168 on: April 22, 2013, 12:50:44 am »
+1

Really it's similar to the Thief situation.

Thief turned out be a really pathetically weak card. Okay, so we got an upgraded Thief: Pirate Ship. Wow, that's a lot better! Except it actually isn't. Okay okay, well what about this: Noble Brigand! That's going to be great! No, no, it's still south of mediocre. The cards all rely on the same mechanic, and it turns out that that mechanic just isn't useful very often.

Saboteur, Rogue, and Knights are kind of the same deal, I think. Trashing your opponent's cards (or stealing their Treasures) just isn't as good as junking their decks with Ruins, giving them negative VP with Curses, decreasing their hand size, leaving them garbage on top of their deck, swindling their cards, or making them reveal cards and then choosing who gains that card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #169 on: April 22, 2013, 01:31:51 am »
0

Quote
Sure, but Counterfeit is more expensive than Moneylender in a non-trivial way. There are a lot of great, less expensive cards, that also gobble up your Copper efficiently.

Its also better in a non-trivial way, especially since the effect doesn't cost an action-- More for BM strategies than for engines though. with most BM strategies a $5 turn is often wasted, so its priced well for them. For engines, an extra +buy at no cost to your engine is nice, but not as nice as other engine cards, but look, most of the engine piece 5's are/will be ranked above it, so no surprises there.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #170 on: April 22, 2013, 01:32:40 am »
0

Really it's similar to the Thief situation.

Thief turned out be a really pathetically weak card. Okay, so we got an upgraded Thief: Pirate Ship. Wow, that's a lot better! Except it actually isn't. Okay okay, well what about this: Noble Brigand! That's going to be great! No, no, it's still south of mediocre. The cards all rely on the same mechanic, and it turns out that that mechanic just isn't useful very often.

Saboteur, Rogue, and Knights are kind of the same deal, I think. Trashing your opponent's cards (or stealing their Treasures) just isn't as good as junking their decks with Ruins, giving them negative VP with Curses, decreasing their hand size, leaving them garbage on top of their deck, swindling their cards, or making them reveal cards and then choosing who gains that card.

While this is something that can possibly happen, I don't think it's the case with the trashing attacks. For one, you left out Swindler, which is like one of the best cards in the game. Secondly, one of the big things holding Saboteur back from being usable (maybe not good, but usable) is that it allows your opponent(s) to gain cards, which can push the game toward a 3-pile ending. So you can't really just build up your engine to play Sabs and then catch up on score. With Knights, you just straight-up kill cards. They don't gain anything. Of course, you can't kill Provinces (without cost-reduction), so you need some other source of points to beat someone rushing Provinces, but you can quite effectively screw things up pretty badly for your opponent(s). I think Knights are underrated on this list.

Also underrated are Pillage and City. All 3 of these cards have the ability to (at least reasonably often) completely dominate the board to the point where the whole game revolves around them, and this attribute keeps them in the top half of the $5 cards in my book. Maybe I'm wrong on how often Pillage and Knights dominate, but I feel like (from very limited games) it's pretty often, like at least a third of the time. If you can draw most of your deck, Pillage's disadvantage of being a one-shot is largely negated by its ability to produce enough money (in the form of Spoils) to buy another Pillage to replace it. So if you draw your deck with $7, a spare buy, and a Pillage, you do the completely brutal attack, get a Province, and in a sense keep your Pillage (until they run out).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #171 on: April 22, 2013, 02:14:38 am »
0

Really it's similar to the Thief situation.

Thief turned out be a really pathetically weak card. Okay, so we got an upgraded Thief: Pirate Ship. Wow, that's a lot better! Except it actually isn't. Okay okay, well what about this: Noble Brigand! That's going to be great! No, no, it's still south of mediocre. The cards all rely on the same mechanic, and it turns out that that mechanic just isn't useful very often.

Saboteur, Rogue, and Knights are kind of the same deal, I think. Trashing your opponent's cards (or stealing their Treasures) just isn't as good as junking their decks with Ruins, giving them negative VP with Curses, decreasing their hand size, leaving them garbage on top of their deck, swindling their cards, or making them reveal cards and then choosing who gains that card.

While this is something that can possibly happen, I don't think it's the case with the trashing attacks. For one, you left out Swindler, which is like one of the best cards in the game. Secondly, one of the big things holding Saboteur back from being usable (maybe not good, but usable) is that it allows your opponent(s) to gain cards, which can push the game toward a 3-pile ending. So you can't really just build up your engine to play Sabs and then catch up on score. With Knights, you just straight-up kill cards. They don't gain anything. Of course, you can't kill Provinces (without cost-reduction), so you need some other source of points to beat someone rushing Provinces, but you can quite effectively screw things up pretty badly for your opponent(s). I think Knights are underrated on this list.

Also underrated are Pillage and City. All 3 of these cards have the ability to (at least reasonably often) completely dominate the board to the point where the whole game revolves around them, and this attribute keeps them in the top half of the $5 cards in my book. Maybe I'm wrong on how often Pillage and Knights dominate, but I feel like (from very limited games) it's pretty often, like at least a third of the time. If you can draw most of your deck, Pillage's disadvantage of being a one-shot is largely negated by its ability to produce enough money (in the form of Spoils) to buy another Pillage to replace it. So if you draw your deck with $7, a spare buy, and a Pillage, you do the completely brutal attack, get a Province, and in a sense keep your Pillage (until they run out).

Well, I strongly disagree. On the Swindler point, I did mention Swindler (bolded above)! I just wasn't counting it as a trashing attack. Because the thing that's so destructive about Swindler isn't that it trashes your cards, it that it replaces them with bad cards in mandatory fashion. I mean, if Swindler just trashed your Coppers, that would actually be a good thing usually. No, what it does that's really strong is it replaces them with Curses. In which case, it's really a discounted Witch that actually hurts your economy more (because you lose a Treasure and gain a Curse), and can also grind $5 Actions into useless Duchies or vice versa. Of course it has the drawback of possibly hitting an Estate, or a $3 or $4 card that doesn't matter as much if it gets swindled. Swindler is not great because it trashes your opponent's cards, it's great because it fills their deck with cards they don't want. It's closer to Jester than Saboteur, in my mind.

City and Pillage are nice sometimes, but everything ahead of them is nice more often. Well, not Knights. Seriously, they are so bad.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #172 on: April 22, 2013, 03:28:55 am »
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I think the list is ok, except for merchant ship which is really overrated.

I don't think Knights are particularly good, but not too bad either. And Dame Josephine (the VP one) is clearly the most underrated, she survives very often in the game !

I would put pillage lower though, but I'm not sure.
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loppo

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #173 on: April 22, 2013, 04:49:28 am »
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The thing with Counterfeit is, that its not gamewarpingly good in a sense that games are won and lost with the counterfeit split (like Minion...). It's a card i gladly pick up as my first 5 and very rarely pick up more than 2. I would only pick the strongest attacks over it.

It provides money, +buy and improves your deck in a subtle way. In the endgame you can safely break PPR if your opponent ignores Counterfeit. I also noticed a lot of people don't use Counterfeit on goko. And in a lot of theese games they tell me afterwards, they didn't know Counterfeit is SOOO GOOD.

Counterfeit is a strong card probably top 15-20 in my opinion. It just doesn't have superstar written all over it, it's more a reliable workhorse that will never let you down. And very often this is what your deck needs.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 09:14:30 am by loppo »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #174 on: April 22, 2013, 06:46:25 am »
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The thing with Countereit is, that its not gamewarpingly good in a sense that games are won and lost with the counterfeit split (like Minion...). It's a card i gladly pick up as my first 5 and very rarely pick up more than 2. I would only pick the strongest attacks over it.

It provides money, +buy and improves your deck in a subtle way. and in the endgame you can safely break PPR if your opponent ignores Counterfeit. I also noticed a lot of people ignore Counterfeit on goko. And in a lot of theese games they tell me afterwards, they didn't know Counterfeit is SOOO GOOD.

Counterfeit is a strong card probably top 15-20 in my opinion. It just doesn't have superstar written all over it, its more a reliable workhorse that will never let you down. And very often this is what your deck needs.

I couldn't have said it better. I absolutely agree.
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