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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 86388 times)

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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #100 on: April 17, 2013, 02:53:43 am »
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I'd also put Mystic a bit higher and Rogue a bit lower.

Mystic on its own is just a silver, but so is Festival. But Mystic has this neat self-synergy and makes a really strong comob with some cards (Cartographer being one of the best). It's certainly not a power card, but I would put it either on top of this second fifth or even into the next one.

And Rogue... well, it CAN be good on some boards, but many many times it's not only a weakish attack, it's also only an attack half the time, AND it's terribly slow if you really intend to steal your opponent's cards (which might be only Silvers).
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #101 on: April 17, 2013, 05:49:33 am »
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I think Rogue is one of the complex and interesting card of Dark Ages.
Complex, because it really depends on the board (if there are trashers, weak card that could end on the trash pile) AND your opponent's strategy. The lack of choice (you are forced to one of the two effects) make it particularly weak but also particularly interesting. I love this card, and I think it is more or less well ranked. However, Graverobber is obviously better because it's more flexible and self-synergizing.

Mystic seems also too low.

I would put Inn and Library above Council room. Maybe library should even be in the third part.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #102 on: April 17, 2013, 06:29:16 am »
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I have rarely seen Rogue be good. There are too many ways to slow down the attack and make the gaining useless. Not only do you not get to choose whether to attack, but if you reveal a Gold and an Urchin from your opponents deck you can't even choose what to trash. Maybe i you play 2 everyturn to attack+gain, but then what if you trashed a bad card from his deck, like loan or Scout? You can't attack until that card is out of the trash and in your deck. And you can't get rid of it, because you would need to pick it up again if you want to keep attacking.
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Watno

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #103 on: April 17, 2013, 07:48:10 am »
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Mystic its way too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #104 on: April 17, 2013, 08:13:25 am »
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I am going to have to disagree with many of you about Rogue and Graverobber. I think Rogue is ranked about right here, but Graverobber should actually be worse. Graverobber isn't nearly as general as Rogue. I played a game the other day trying to go Graverobber, and multiple times I ended up not playing it because there were no cards to gain from the trash and I didn't have an Action card to remodel in my hand. For Graverobber to work, you need strong trashing plus the ability to gain a lot of $5s quickly, since you want to be able to trash them into Provinces. Plus, it's terrible in Colony games. I might be wrong here, since I don't have a ton of experience with either card, but at least Rogue gives you a terminal Silver with a bonus, and is improved in multiplayer games.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #105 on: April 17, 2013, 09:18:48 am »
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Graverobber lower than Rogue? Hmm...it sort of makes sense, but I was expecting Graverobber to be higher. Graverobber can be really nice to have in games with lots of draw and lots of cards at the 5$ price point, but in other games it ends up with nothing to gain or trash. It's not as general as Rogue, although personally I find Graverobber more fun to use and when it's good it's really good. Both cards are great to have with TfB cards, but only Graverobber is itself a TfB card.

One thing I will say about Rogue based on personal experience with it: It's nice to have in alt-VP card games, or at least in games where you can trash your Feodums (I just realized, Feodum can also be a good defense against Rogue if you want silvers). Trashing the contested alt-VP card from your opponents deck and even gaining it if you're lucky is nifty.

I should use Mystic more. The opportunity cost tends to be high at 5$, but it's a good support card. Like a conspirator, but with less risk.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #106 on: April 17, 2013, 09:53:45 am »
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One key thing with Rogue I think is that it gives +$2. That's quite considerable, I think. Terminal +$2, gain a silver is sometimes what it is, and that's about the same as Explorer. Of course, being about the same as Explorer isn't anything special, but that's pretty close to the worst it gets. +$2, gain a Gold, or +$2, trash your opponent's stuff are both very, very nice.

It's definitely board dependent, and I think one of the most interesting cards in the set. I don't disagree with it's rating.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #107 on: April 17, 2013, 10:06:50 am »
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One key thing with Rogue I think is that it gives +$2. That's quite considerable, I think. Terminal +$2, gain a silver is sometimes what it is, and that's about the same as Explorer. Of course, being about the same as Explorer isn't anything special, but that's pretty close to the worst it gets. +$2, gain a Gold, or +$2, trash your opponent's stuff are both very, very nice.

It's definitely board dependent, and I think one of the most interesting cards in the set. I don't disagree with it's rating.

Actually, the worst it gets is +$2, discard the top 2 cards of your opponent's deck. It won't always successfully trash.

Actually, the worst it gets is probably +$2, gain a Sea Hag from the trash (after Curses are all gone). Of course in that situation you probably just don't play the Rogue.
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RTT

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #108 on: April 17, 2013, 10:26:27 am »
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One key thing with Rogue I think is that it gives +$2. That's quite considerable, I think. Terminal +$2, gain a silver is sometimes what it is, and that's about the same as Explorer. Of course, being about the same as Explorer isn't anything special, but that's pretty close to the worst it gets. +$2, gain a Gold, or +$2, trash your opponent's stuff are both very, very nice.

It's definitely board dependent, and I think one of the most interesting cards in the set. I don't disagree with it's rating.

Actually, the worst it gets is +$2, discard the top 2 cards of your opponent's deck. It won't always successfully trash.

Actually, the worst it gets is probably +$2, gain a Sea Hag from the trash (after Curses are all gone). Of course in that situation you probably just don't play the Rogue.

So the attack is like dame silvya :) i dont like rouge as well its to unflexible
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clb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #109 on: April 17, 2013, 11:28:24 am »
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I think that the Graverobber is much stronger than Rogue.
If there are cantrips and/or decent thinning on the board (or esp. $5 cantrips), Graverobbers basically become $5 Provinces. I don't think it is too hard to design a deck where 2 Graverobbers collide with some consistency. This means you need very little economy - once you have a few, you will either be trashing them for Provinces or recovering them from the trash to recycle.
I am not saying it is a top-tier card, but I do think it is better than it is ranked presently.
That was the only card I felt was markedly out of place on this set.
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achmed_sender

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #110 on: April 17, 2013, 11:39:14 am »
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Library is far too low. I would rank it about 25th-30th
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #111 on: April 17, 2013, 12:05:23 pm »
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Library is far too low. I would rank it about 25th-30th

I can be really good, but many times it's weak because there isn't a way to lower your hand size. Or if there is it's not effective. Sure Cellar lowers your hand size, but unless cards like Feast are present Library's not that good.

And about Count, the Discard option is good for Library, while the $3 helps to hit $5 for both cards. Just throwing that information out there! :)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #112 on: April 17, 2013, 12:14:15 pm »
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I agree that Rogue should be much lower. Yeah it gets you $2, so it's not the worst thing to have, but how often do you really want it? Rarely. If you want to destroy their deck, you need to play it a lot, but then every other time you play it, you're picking up whatever you trashed, so you need to play it twice as much. And then what if the stuff you're trashing just gets in the way of your engine? Seems too hard to use to any great effect. Graverobber I think is better (and reasonably ranked), since even though having it in a random deck is not useful, there's a decent amount of situations where you can make it pretty useful. Throning it with a $5 action in hand is just " discard a $5 action, gain a Province".

It's hard to be too picky with this list, since I think we're getting into the section where most people (including me) semi-randomly ranked the cards. There's probably not a lot separating the top of this list from the top of the next set, but with that said, I have Inn near the top of the next list, not on this one. Just being a village is really useful, so it gets a decent amount of points for that, and even though as an action it nearly didn't get printed for being too weak for $5, once you throw in the on-gain effect, I think it becomes really good, a great way to set up mega-turns.

Since I don't have much to say about the cards that have shown up so far, I want to bring up a card that hasn't: Merchant Ship. When Council Room came back up, it wouldn't load my Popular Buys page since I had too many games, so I started an alt account (Psi Disruptor) to get stats. In 22 games with Merchant Ship, I never bought/gained one, and neither did any of my opponents! Now 22 is a pretty small sample size, and I don't really think it should never be bought, but it was just kind of striking to see. The only other cards I never bought were Thief and Scout. This seems a bit weird since Merchant Ship is "good". It gives a good amount of money. But the problem is that it's really pretty vanilla. It's like Mystic. There's nothing wrong with it, but nothing good about it. This turn it's just a terminal Silver, next turn it's a successful Mystic, and it has problems missing shuffles. I'm usually happy to it with a spare action in a money deck, but if it weren't there, I don't think I'd ever really miss it. I think it's a bottom 20 kind of card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #113 on: April 17, 2013, 12:20:24 pm »
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Graverobber I think is better (and reasonably ranked), since even though having it in a random deck is not useful, there's a decent amount of situations where you can make it pretty useful. Throning it with a $5 action in hand is just " discard topdeck a $5 action, gain a Province".

Fixed that for you.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2013, 12:31:49 pm »
+1

I've never been all that convinced that Merchant Ship is good. I accept that it's not bad, and can find a place in money or engines, and is less likely to collide... but still. I didn't expect (or want) to see it yet, but it should be coming soon.
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DG

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2013, 12:48:03 pm »
+2

Merchant ship is fine. People seem obsessed with big engine cards when sometimes you just need some coins. Merchant ships certainly give coins and the disadvantage from missing shuffles can sometimes be an advantage, so that's the time to buy them. Looking back at my council room stats I was getting in 46% of games, but overbuying it since I was doing a bit better without, so I'm guessing 30-35% would have been right for me.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #116 on: April 17, 2013, 12:50:44 pm »
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Merchant ship is fine. People seem obsessed with big engine cards when sometimes you just need some coins. Merchant ships certainly give coins and the disadvantage from missing shuffles can sometimes be an advantage, so that's the time to buy them. Looking back at my council room stats I was getting in 46% of games, but overbuying it since I was doing a bit better without, so I'm guessing 30-35% would have been right for me.

Oh I agree that it's fine, and probably close to 30% gain rate is reasonable. But it's still a bottom 20 $5 card.
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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2013, 02:46:41 pm »
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I completely agree that Merchant Ship belongs down in this echelon as well.

I remember the last time we did this list, I put Merchant Ship right next to Harvest on the grounds that both were basically just terminal sources of Treasure that give you not quite $4 (on the grounds that the time value of money makes Merchant Ship's duration $2 worth less than $2).  Obviously this is not quite right, the Merchant's duration effect actually significantly improves it, since the next turn effect is actually equivalent to an activated Conspirator, not a terminal silver.

But it's still a fairly boring and mediocre effect.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 02:49:50 pm by chwhite »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2013, 03:18:38 pm »
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So, uh, guys.... where's trading post?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2013, 03:28:30 pm »
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I don't think Trading Post is this bad. It's good for money strats and it's not even that bad for engine strats because it removes a card from the deck (and it will usually replace bad cards with a better one).
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Jack Rudd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #120 on: April 17, 2013, 03:52:58 pm »
+1

Laboratory was once considered the second best $5 card!
If I recall Theory's article correctly, it said no such thing: it said Laboratory was the second-best non-Attack $5 card. He was well aware of the power of Mountebank, Witch and Torturer.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #121 on: April 17, 2013, 04:00:57 pm »
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Laboratory was once considered the second best $5 card!
If I recall Theory's article correctly, it said no such thing: it said Laboratory was the second-best non-Attack $5 card. He was well aware of the power of Mountebank, Witch and Torturer.

Yeah I should have specified that. But even calling Laboratory the second-best non-Attack $5 card at this point seems crazy. But my point was not to insult theory, whose lists were very good, just to point out how the strategic landscape has changed such that Laboratory is not even close the second best $5 non-Attack card (Wharf, Ill-Gotten Gains, Hunting Party, Governor, Tactician, Embassy, Apprentice, Rebuild, Stables... and that's just off the top of my head.)
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #122 on: April 17, 2013, 04:01:42 pm »
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So, uh, guys.... where's trading post?

You think Trading Post should be this low? I don't think so. Soon, but not yet.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #123 on: April 17, 2013, 05:33:17 pm »
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Yes, I think Trading post and merchant ship should be lower than Library, Inn, Treasury and maybe Mystic. Merchant ship is really close to Harvest.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 2/6)
« Reply #124 on: April 17, 2013, 05:34:37 pm »
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I don't think Trading Post is this bad. It's good for money strats and it's not even that bad for engine strats because it removes a card from the deck (and it will usually replace bad cards with a better one).

It's only good for money if you can open with it. After that, it's kind of too late, as it will rarely even produce $2. And yeah, it's not bad for engines, but not that good either, unless there's cursing or something. I think it belongs down here, though I won't be disappointed if it's one of the next 2 cards to show up or something.
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