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[Tables]

Hmm, the thoughts on Harvest here are interesting. I feel it's generally quite a good card - it's usually +$3, sometimes +$4 and rarely +$2/+$1, as long as you don't buy it as an opener. But how good is terminal +$3? It's decent, but there's usually something better. It does also give you cycling, and by the time cycling's bad, it's reaching the point where it's more likely to give +$4.

But yet at the same time, I struggle to think back to games where I've bought Harvests. Or even games where I remember seeing Harvests in the supply. It could be that I just don't see it that often, but more likely, it's just never really significant.

[Dsell]

Where is Mandarin??

[math]

I actually think Mandarin is a decent card.  I don't buy it very often, but I get it more than Outpost or Explorer.  I think it'll probably show up in the first few cards of the next list.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I'm not sure if this idea has been posted on here before (seems likely) but one way to evaluate the $5 cards is to consider the Gold Test. How often and how many times per game would you purchase this card with $6 hands instead of Gold. Like the Silver Test, it basically means nothing, but maybe you can have fun thinking about it! Variants of the Gold Test include questions like: how often do you buy this card with your first $6 hand instead of Gold? The potential for analysis is endless.

If you look at the top tier $5 cards, the answer for the Gold Test is: a lot. If you look at the cards down at the bottom, the answer is: not much. For some of the treasure cards, the answer is: almost never. That's why the Silvers with a bonus and the Golds with a penalty aren't good. That's why terminal cash is terrible unless there's a nifty effect too.

[brokoli]

Now we just wait for brokoli to show up and defend Saboteur/Harvest.

Sorry
Well, I agree with you... I think all bottom $5 card are underrated somehow. I am sad to see counting house last even if I agree.
It's true that I do think Saboteur deserves more defense than the others, and I feel that most people hate it and that's why it's still so low.
I won't repeat the same speech, but yes these two (+ outpost) are too low for me ^^ And I have an irrational love for Harvest, I often use it even if it's not the best move.

That said, I recently (thanks to the article) realized I absolutely underused Contraband.

Mandarin, Royal Seal and Rogue should probably be there, but it wouldn't change much.

[Dsell]

I actually think Mandarin is a decent card.  I don't buy it very often, but I get it more than Outpost or Explorer.  I think it'll probably show up in the first few cards of the next list.

I'm sure it will, but I'd put it behind a lot of these. Personally I'd probably put it right behind Harvest. Neither is great for big money, but harvest is better in flimsy engines going for 1-2 provinces a turn. In a draw-your-deck engine (and obviously after you've drawn your whole deck) Mandarin probably gains the edge for being able to top-deck to set up for the next turn.

The on-gain is cool and sometimes useful. It definitely gives it a niche over Harvest, but I think harvest tends to be consistently better.

I definitely find more uses for Mine and Tribute than Mandarin.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Now we just wait for brokoli to show up and defend Saboteur/Harvest.

Well, I agree with you... I think all bottom $5 card are underrated somehow. I am sad to see counting house last even if I agree.

You are 100% correct about all the bottom $5 cards being underrated, and it's a vicious cycle where these lists reinforce the underrating.

But these cards are underrated in the sense that people don't play them often enough or don't play them correctly. They aren't underrated in the sense that they should be higher on the ranking list (well, some of them are underrated that way too).

[Hks]

I would've put Contraband above Harvest and Cache, I never buy them anyway.

[WanderingWinder]

I actually think Mandarin is a decent card.  I don't buy it very often, but I get it more than Outpost or Explorer.  I think it'll probably show up in the first few cards of the next list.

I'm sure it will, but I'd put it behind a lot of these. Personally I'd probably put it right behind Harvest. Neither is great for big money, but harvest is better in flimsy engines going for 1-2 provinces a turn. In a draw-your-deck engine (and obviously after you've drawn your whole deck) Mandarin probably gains the edge for being able to top-deck to set up for the next turn.

The on-gain is cool and sometimes useful. It definitely gives it a niche over Harvest, but I think harvest tends to be consistently better.

I definitely find more uses for Mine and Tribute than Mandarin.

Mandarin is better than harvest. I mean, let's face it, neither one is a barrel full of laughs. But the on-gain is actually really big for big money. It's actually fairly high on the list of cards for BM strategies on its own, though it's a lot better in supplementing another BM strategy. Something like BM/Smithy, BM/Monument, BM/Envoy... actually almost any terminal BM will be happy to pick this up in the right spot even early on as a second terminal, and will definitely love picking it up as a third or fourth in the late going. Of course, it's tricky on when exactly to do that, and well, money strategies aren't so hot nowadays, so it deserves to be pretty low. But if you are playing money, it's going to put you over the top in, I dunno, 30-40% of the games?

[dondon151]

Sab belongs in this tier but is too low within this tier, IMO. Outpost is criminally underrated. In almost any engine game with trashing, if Outpost is in the kingdom and my opponent doesn't go for the engine, I know that Outpost will give me more than enough time to win.

[Schneau]

My biggest problem with this group is that Royal Seal hasn't appeared yet. I entirely agree with WW that it's one of the worst $5 - it's almost always better than Silver, but never excitingly so.

[Willvon]

So happy to have the list back again, but sorry you are still fighting your bug, Qvist.

l like the list so far, other than I am starting to agree that perhaps Harvest should be lower. When it is in the kingdom, I never buy it unless there are no other 5's worth buying. And if that is true, there are probably 4's in the kingdom that are better.

[Chuckleslovakian]

I've found games where Contraband, Stash, Saboteur, were all useful. Hell even remember a game where Counting House was key. Don't ever remember Harvest being useful.

[Blueswan]

YES, it's back. Thank you Qvist. Looking forward to the rest of the list. I didn't participate in the voting since I only started playing Dominion this january and I'm still not a very good player, but I plan to take part if there is a list next year - hopefully there is to accommodate the Guilds cards.

For my money I would rate Counting House and Saboteur higher. I think I would rate Explorer and Harvest as the bottom two cards.

[brokoli]

I think the best uses for Mandarin are :
- When the on-gain effect is a benefit (Buy province + Mandarin and put golds on top of your deck)
- When the courtyard effect is a benefit (Play mandarin, put tunnel on top then play venture).

On the other side, Harvest is almost always worth $3 - $4 which is usually better than mandarin, and Harvest is nice for deck-cycling. Maybe in BM or even slogs Mandarin is better, but not in engines...

Actually, I would rank Harvest just above Merchant ship.

And Explorer is fine where it is.

[Blueswan]

Harvest better than Merchant Ship? For real?

[WanderingWinder]

I think the best uses for Mandarin are :
- When the on-gain effect is a benefit (Buy province + Mandarin and put golds on top of your deck)
- When the courtyard effect is a benefit (Play mandarin, put tunnel on top then play venture).

Sure.

On the other side, Harvest is almost always worth $3 - $4 which is usually better than mandarin,

Well, by $0-1. Not to mention that sometimes it only gets you 2 or even 1. So, usually it's the same amount of cash, more often more than less, but on average, probably what, $.2 better? Ok, a grant you that's a plus.

and Harvest is nice for deck-cycling.

Well, yes and no. If you get it really early, then yes. But if you are getting Mandarin where forward cycling is good, you are probably doing it wrong. One of mandarin's biggest draws, no THE biggest draw, is that it anti-cycles for you, selectively. Cycling through four cards generally isn't that important though - that's a bit of a fallacy. I mean, it helps a little bit, but usually you want cycling because cards that help you cycle will help you to make an engine you can draw your deck with, rather than being dead-to-draw cards other stuff has to lift. Cycling itself also has a benefit, but it's a small one.

Maybe in BM or even slogs Mandarin is better, but not in engines...

But the problem in engines is that you have to play harvest before you draw your deck, and that is a pain, particularly because it essentially means you have to have more villages, which is a pretty significant nuisance, actually. And the Courtyard effect of mandarin can help engines where you're over-drawing, by being able to seed your next hand with an important card, thus allowing you to be sure not to have the engine sputter next turn. So I have actually found Mandarin more useful in engines, too, though to be fair, you usually want neither one of them in an engine.

[Tables]

and Harvest is nice for deck-cycling.

Well, yes and no. If you get it really early, then yes. But if you are getting Mandarin where forward cycling is good, you are probably doing it wrong. One of mandarin's biggest draws, no THE biggest draw, is that it anti-cycles for you, selectively. Cycling through four cards generally isn't that important though - that's a bit of a fallacy. I mean, it helps a little bit, but usually you want cycling because cards that help you cycle will help you to make an engine you can draw your deck with, rather than being dead-to-draw cards other stuff has to lift. Cycling itself also has a benefit, but it's a small one.

By the time Harvest's cycling is bad, it's going to be getting to the big numbers more reliably, though, as by endgame, you generally have a much more varied deck.

[DG]

I'll stick up for stash actually. I think it's fine and plenty of people do buy it, get value from it, and forget about it. There are plenty of kingdoms where you can't afford to overload with terminal cards so that leaves stash as good value at cost 5. As with the explorer, not all cards can be always be exciting. Unlike all the other cards on that bottom list, it is practically always better than silver.

[jaybeez]

Its kind of interesting how bad all the $5 Treasure Cards are. Ill-Gotten Gains is the star, and Horn of Plenty is pretty good. I think Counterfeit is pretty mediocre, and the rest are deserving of very low ranks.

Venture's solid.

[dondon151]

Venture is still ranked in the bottom half of $5 cards IIRC.

[Robz888]

Its kind of interesting how bad all the $5 Treasure Cards are. Ill-Gotten Gains is the star, and Horn of Plenty is pretty good. I think Counterfeit is pretty mediocre, and the rest are deserving of very low ranks.

Venture's solid.

Yeah, Venture is okay, but there's actually no other card that has fallen as far in my estimation. I used to think it was really good (and to be fair, it probably used to be better, relative to other things). Now, you know what? Meh. Meh, I say. Occasionally you see a really great set up for it, and that's fun, but the entirely-Venture-based-deck is an increasingly rare and disappointing thing.

[heatthespurs]

I've found games where Contraband, Stash, Saboteur, were all useful. Hell even remember a game where Counting House was key. Don't ever remember Harvest being useful.

I remember having a game once which my opponent successfully combo Scrying Pool with Harvest (similar to how SP-Vault work) and won him a game. Of course it is much weaker than SP-Vault, but I was pretty amazed how he worked that out.

For me the biggest plus for Harvest is that you get the satisfaction when you hit +$4... It feels like winning a lottery

[Fragasnap]

Paragraph defending Counting House incoming:
I think Counting House is better than people give credit. Assuming there is no trashing, it can be decent for swinging up to a higher money value, and it is half-decent in Colony games. It is not very often that it can be used as your primary strategy, but if there is any amount of a slog going on, it can be a decent buy. I would say that Saboteur has fewer instances where it can be used (and to be clear, I like Saboteur). You're not really getting anywhere with Saboteur unless you're playing 3-4 in a turn (and if you can do that, surely there's something better to play than Saboteur) or two other players decide to start a Saboteur war. Mine is probably harder to justify than Counting House in more games.
Tribute is too inconsistent to be good: It is all the swinginess of Counting House but without any certainty of its actual effect. It is similar to how one cannot rely upon Ironmonger to build an engine-- either drawing cards or providing actions-- except that Ironmonger is nice because it's at least a Cantrip, so you always know you'll end up ahead when you play it. If you have Tribute and another great Action in your hand, which do you play? Tribute might end up being nonterminal, but you can't be certain, so you have to play your other Action.
Also, I harbor an irrational grudges against Explorer and Outpost. I know neither are that bad, but I always feel a little bit sad when one of the Kingdom card slots is occupied by one of them.

Now with Scavenger, there exists even a more powerful combo for a guaranteed Province each turn in a deck with 4 Stashes and 2 Scavengers.

Scavenger itself produces $2, so you only need 3 Stashes and 2 Scavengers to make this work. Also it's stopped by Attacks that mess with your hand.

I think Counterfeit is pretty mediocre

I disagree, I think it's amazing.

I agree with Qvist. It's not the best thing ever, but if you want some trashing, it is clearly better than Moneylender. When you trash a Copper with it, you get the same +$3 as Moneylender, but it's a Treasure, so you don't need to worry about having the Actions to play it; it provides a +Buy so you can build a fun engine out of cheap components; even when it doesn't collide with Copper, or when you are out of Coppers, it provides $1; and at the end of a game you can start trashing Silvers and Golds for bigger money swings to start picking up extra Duchies (with those +Buys it handily gives anyway) or just to jump up to snagging those last couple Provinces.

Prediction: Rebuild is Dark Ages's strongest $5. Maybe people don't think it now (mabye they put Cultist higher), but Rebuild is one of those cards that requires you to completely change your thinking for the game-- particularly if you start with three Estates.

[Tables]

Now with Scavenger, there exists even a more powerful combo for a guaranteed Province each turn in a deck with 4 Stashes and 2 Scavengers.

Scavenger itself produces $2, so you only need 3 Stashes and 2 Scavengers to make this work. Also it's stopped by Attacks that mess with your hand.

Not true. What if you draw Scavenger/Scavenger/Stash/Stash/Stash after the reshuffle?