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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 89074 times)

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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2013, 10:24:27 am »
0

Now with Scavenger, there exists even a more powerful combo for a guaranteed Province each turn in a deck with 4 Stashes and 2 Scavengers.
Scavenger itself produces $2, so you only need 3 Stashes and 2 Scavengers to make this work. Also it's stopped by Attacks that mess with your hand.

Like Tables said, 2 Scavengers and 3 Stashes is basically enough in practice, but you might be screwed by this unlucky hand. So this still doesn't guarantee you it.
And of course discarding attacks are ignored here like in every "Golden Deck", because then you probably wouldn't go for it in the first place.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2013, 12:17:44 pm »
+1

The bottom $5 cards is on of the hardest part of the rankings to do, because it involves a lot of cards that you want to use infrequently enough that it's hard to really have a good sense of their actual power, and if you miss chances to use them, you might not even notice. That said, I feel like Harvest is hands down the worst, since it is basically never strong. It's at best usable when you need disappearing money, have an action to spare, and aren't drawing your whole deck. Then I have Tribute, Royal Seal, Rogue, and Saboteur. Tribute and Royal seal aren't terrible a lot of the time, and you don't mind having them in your deck, but they're at best situational support cards, never really key cards. On the other hand, all the other cards here can really the key piece to your strategy at least some of the time. Other than Royal Seal escaping this tier (and Tribute nearly doing so as well) the biggest problem I see with this list is that Contraband is way too low. Sure it can be bad to play Contraband in the end of the game when you want to buy Provinces, but there are a lot of really good cards that you don't want to play at that stage of the game, like trashers. But in the early part of the game, Contraband is really good. $3 and a buy without using an action helps building up a lot. Most of the time there are multiple things you can do with $6 and 2 buys that are better that what you could do for $5 and 1 buy, and since only one of these can be blocked, it easily passes the Silver test and can often be better than whatever $2-producing 5's are out there for the build-up phase of the game.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2013, 12:59:13 pm »
+4

Now with Scavenger, there exists even a more powerful combo for a guaranteed Province each turn in a deck with 4 Stashes and 2 Scavengers.
Scavenger itself produces $2, so you only need 3 Stashes and 2 Scavengers to make this work. Also it's stopped by Attacks that mess with your hand.

Like Tables said, 2 Scavengers and 3 Stashes is basically enough in practice, but you might be screwed by this unlucky hand. So this still doesn't guarantee you it.

However, you suggested 4 Stash/2 Scavenger.  It's more likely that you should go 3 Stash/3 Scavenger, because Scavenger is only $4.
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2013, 03:05:19 pm »
+1

I think Counterfeit is pretty mediocre
I disagree, I think it's amazing.
I agree with Qvist. It's not the best thing ever, but if you want some trashing, it is clearly better than Moneylender. When you trash a Copper with it, you get the same +$3 as Moneylender, but it's a Treasure, so you don't need to worry about having the Actions to play it; it provides a +Buy so you can build a fun engine out of cheap components; even when it doesn't collide with Copper, or when you are out of Coppers, it provides $1; and at the end of a game you can start trashing Silvers and Golds for bigger money swings to start picking up extra Duchies (with those +Buys it handily gives anyway) or just to jump up to snagging those last couple Provinces.

And it combos pretty well with spoils.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2013, 08:45:30 pm »
0

Counterfeit is just good in general, and once in a while it stands out as excellent.

As for the rankings of DA cards, Cultist and Rebuild will very high I think, as maybe Graverobber. Bandit Camp I think will be middle/high middle too, along with Count.
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shraeye

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2013, 11:42:08 pm »
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I think Counterfeit is pretty mediocre

I disagree, I think it's amazing.
I very much agree.  I enjoy counterfeiting things.  Counterfeiting counterfeits is also fun.
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GiB

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2013, 06:14:59 am »
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Counterfeit is just good in general, and once in a while it stands out as excellent.

I agree too.

As for the rankings of DA cards, Cultist and Rebuild will very high I think, as maybe Graverobber. Bandit Camp I think will be middle/high middle too, along with Count.

My guess (maybe I'm underrating Graverobber, I think it's good but rather situational) :
  • Cultist : Top 5 (I'm curious to see how it was ranked compared to Wharf)
  • Rebuild : Top 10
  • Catacombs, Junk Dealer, Bandit Camp, Pillage : High, something like 11-16 ? (15-20 for Bandit Camp and Pillage)
  • BoM, Graverobber, Count, Counterfeit, Mystic : Middle or high middle (20-29)
  • Rogue, Knights : Lowish, but can also be deadly in the right conditions. I guess it was hard to rank Knights as a whole.
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Blueswan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2013, 07:41:11 am »
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I really enjoy playing Junk Dealers. Wonder how high it will be.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2013, 08:05:57 am »
0

How I would rank :
  • Cultist : Top 5
  • Rebuild : Top 10
  • Bandit camp, Graverobber, Count, Knights : 11-25
  • BoM, Counterfeit, Mystic, Catacombs, Junk dealer : middle
  • Rogue : 45-50 (this card really depends on the board, more than the majority of the cards in the game
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PitzerMike

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2013, 09:40:17 am »
+2

Heh, I have Graverobber fifth to last. I think it's almost the worst.  :)
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2013, 10:27:51 am »
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Heh, I have Graverobber fifth to last. I think it's almost the worst.  :)

Definitly not. In many boards it just really good. Essentially it makes Expand almost useless. True it doesn't have as much versatility, but turning your $5's into Provinces is amazing, then gainig them back, topdecking them and doing it again next turn is even better. It also works with itself, and lets not mention University where you would be crazy to ignore it. Top 20 I say, I buy it almost every board and usually regret it when I don't.
How I would rank :
  • Rogue : 45-50 (this card really depends on the board, more than the majority of the cards in the game

I agree on Rogue. It too rigid to normally be good. The $2 helps it, but its easily ruined by putting something like Loan in the trash. The best I've seen is to ruin Foragers that have Golds and Silvers in the trash. But is it worth it over the attack cards that probably trashed them? I'm not sure...
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2013, 10:39:05 am »
+1

[Graverobber] also works with itself, and lets not mention University where you would be crazy to ignore it.

Or Altar.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2013, 10:41:28 am »
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[Graverobber] also works with itself, and lets not mention University where you would be crazy to ignore it.

Or Altar.

Oh yeah, and Altar.
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GiB

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2013, 11:43:02 am »
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My biggest concern with Graverobber is that it needs some support to be useful. Just like Counting House, it often either really shines or sucks (only difference is that it shines much more often than Counting House).

On the other hand, all the other $5 (except BoM) will do their job almost whatever the kingdom. I don't think situational cards should be ranked so high, combo potential should only be a plus in the ranking.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2013, 11:46:03 am »
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It's better with suport, but good in it's own. There will always be other graverobbers to graverobber, and you can upgrade ever $2 Actions into them. Sure it's not the BEST strategy, but it's decent on an otherwise slow kingdom. For sure it beats straight BM at least.
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shraeye

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2013, 11:48:12 am »
0

[Graverobber] also works with itself, and lets not mention University where you would be crazy to ignore it.

Or Altar.

Oh yeah, and Altar.
I recently got smashed by an Altar/City combo.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2013, 12:17:33 pm »
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I think Saboteur should be higher and Harvest and Explorer should be lower.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2013, 01:06:51 pm »
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I think Saboteur should be higher and Harvest and Explorer should be lower.

Agreed. I've only taken explorer in weak boards where Feodum was present.

Like Ghost ship, you need to play Saboteur often to make it worth it. It provides no benefit to you, so it's harder to do, but if you can it's deadly (also why it provides no benefit to you).
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2013, 01:19:42 pm »
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Cultist and Rebuild are very powerful (Rebuild much more so than I first thought). Catacombs and Junk Dealer are also nice, and Counterfeit, too. But the rest of the DA cards, I'm quite worried will be over-ranked. Knights, Count, and Graverobber especially are less useful than they appear, I think.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2013, 01:53:58 pm »
+1

Cultist and Rebuild are very powerful (Rebuild much more so than I first thought). Catacombs and Junk Dealer are also nice, and Counterfeit, too. But the rest of the DA cards, I'm quite worried will be over-ranked. Knights, Count, and Graverobber especially are less useful than they appear, I think.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except regarding Count.  It can be an elite early trasher, or a pseudo-Mandarin in midgame (which I think is a much better card than some people realize) and can gain you Duchies straight-up in the late game when the +$3 option won't get you to a Province.  And that's not counting more unusual situations where the option to gain a Copper isn't so bad, or you really want to discard two cards (Menagerie, Tunnel).  It's not the strongest card but it's so flexible, which means you can use it in a lot of different situations, which makes it pretty solid I think.  I think it's a lot like Steward in that I've mostly used it for early trashing and then terminal money when I don't want to trash any more, it's just more complicated than Steward and not quite as good because you can't open with it every time.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2013, 02:03:53 pm »
0

Cultist and Rebuild are very powerful (Rebuild much more so than I first thought). Catacombs and Junk Dealer are also nice, and Counterfeit, too. But the rest of the DA cards, I'm quite worried will be over-ranked. Knights, Count, and Graverobber especially are less useful than they appear, I think.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except regarding Count.  It can be an elite early trasher, or a pseudo-Mandarin in midgame (which I think is a much better card than some people realize) and can gain you Duchies straight-up in the late game when the +$3 option won't get you to a Province.  And that's not counting more unusual situations where the option to gain a Copper isn't so bad, or you really want to discard two cards (Menagerie, Tunnel).  It's not the strongest card but it's so flexible, which means you can use it in a lot of different situations, which makes it pretty solid I think.  I think it's a lot like Steward in that I've mostly used it for early trashing and then terminal money when I don't want to trash any more, it's just more complicated than Steward and not quite as good because you can't open with it every time.

It's options cover each stage of the game. Early trashing, money boost then VP gains near the end.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2013, 04:34:43 pm »
+1

Cultist and Rebuild are very powerful (Rebuild much more so than I first thought). Catacombs and Junk Dealer are also nice, and Counterfeit, too. But the rest of the DA cards, I'm quite worried will be over-ranked. Knights, Count, and Graverobber especially are less useful than they appear, I think.
and can gain you Duchies straight-up in the late game when the +$3 option won't get you to a Province. 

Even if you already have $5 in hand, getting two Duchies can be a life saver if you would otherwise break PPR.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2013, 05:01:13 pm »
+3

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except regarding Count.
Count is not good.
Quote
It can be an elite early trasher,
Actually, it can't. I mean, chapel is an elite early trasher. Ambassador. Remake possibly. Count is hardly better than steward. Of course, if you're fortunate enough to get one on turn 1-2, then it's pretty good, but this will be rare. And after you've reshuffled a second time, its value as a trasher diminishes GREATLY. You must trash your whole hand, which is a pretty big negative, and you can save one card with the top-deck, but then you have to anti-cycle it, or you can save two, but then you have to discard them. And if you want to trash everything, then you have to gain a copper. So you end up netting only 3 cards trashing, which hey, that's not bad if you can get it t1-2, but I think I'd actually take steward half the time. And steward costs $3.
Quote
or a pseudo-Mandarin in midgame (which I think is a much better card than some people realize)
Mandarin IS a much better card than some people realize - but mostly for its on-gain effect! Buying count to be a mandarin is... well, it's not the worst thing ever, but you almost always have something better to do.
Quote
and can gain you Duchies straight-up in the late game when the +$3 option won't get you to a Province.
This situation actually comes up infrequently. If you have $5+, the $3 gets you a province. So you have less than $5. But if you have $2+, then the $3 gets you a duchy anyway. So gaining it only actually gets you a cheaper card - maybe an estate. Now, that's not nothing, but it isn't much. More useful is when you can already buy a province, or when you need to do 2 duchies rather than a province, because you're behind.[/quote]
And that's not counting more unusual situations where the option to gain a Copper isn't so bad, or you really want to discard two cards (Menagerie, Tunnel).[/quote]
It has to be incredibly rare that you discard two cards for menagerie. I mean, first of all, you need to have an extra action already, then you need to have multiple copies (often 3+ or you'd top-deck) of said card, and not be able to play them. Generally we are talking copper (you shouldn't have so many of these hands in a deck where menagerie and count are important cards) or like province. So province is a situation, but I have to say, that's a really low percentage thing - that you have so many provinces that they're colliding and you need to discard them with the count to have a menagerie activate to win? Got to be SUPER rare. And tunnel, well there yes, you are going to want to discard some. But, having played count and discarded 2 cards, you then have only two cards left in hand, which is not too much to make $8 with. Of course, with the amount of gold you might have floating, you can do it sometimes. But generally, well it can't be the backbone of a strategy really, it's just too slow.
Quote
It's not the strongest card but it's so flexible, which means you can use it in a lot of different situations, which makes it pretty solid I think.
The problem is... well, there are lots of decks where if you asked me 'would you like an extra count in your deck for free' then I would take it. Though even there, often I wouldn't, and many other times, I would take it but not by much. But the problem is, that isn't the question, EVER. It's always would you rather have it than anything else you can have. And that usually means over EVERY other $5, every cheaper card, and often enough some more expensive ones. And it doesn't pass that test too often, and when it does, it tends to not come too close to winning the game on its own, ergo it's not that good.

Quote
I think it's a lot like Steward in that I've mostly used it for early trashing and then terminal money when I don't want to trash any more, it's just more complicated than Steward and not quite as good because you can't open with it every time.
Steward is a much better card. First off, the drawing on steward is generally a lot better than the money. And often enough, 2 cards is better than 3 coin, and that's not even factoring in count's drawback. Of course, count has some plusses, too, but the big deal is that count costs $5, which is a LOT more than 3, and most of all makes it a MUCH less effective trasher, especially given how it has to trash things.

Okay, so what is count's best situation? Well, it isn't bad to spike a s a trasher on turn 1 or 2, but the best thing is alt-vp slogs, where gain a copper and a duchy, or gain a copper and $3, and sometimes top-decking, are very very useful.

Okay, I don't mean to pick on you here - it was just a convenient way of running down the points I want to make about count.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 05:02:20 pm by WanderingWinder »
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2013, 05:08:52 pm »
0

WW, what I'm getting from your post is, "Count is not a good engine card." Is that valid?
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 1/6)
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2013, 05:14:37 pm »
0

You do want to discard 2 cards often enough with Menagerie that a card like Horse Traders is a good enabler with a surplus of +action. The problem with Count is, obviously, that it's weaker than HT if you take +$3, discard 2 cards because it doesn't give +buy and it's not a Reaction.

Also, I wouldn't say that Count is necessarily a bad engine card. If you have a strong drawing engine, the topdecking from hand could be beneficial for improving consistency on subsequent turns. If you draw $8 with a Count, you can still gain Province + Duchy. It can serve as kind of a gimped Forge if you so desire. It's not really good, but the card is designed to be flexible at what it does, not good at what it does.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 05:18:14 pm by dondon151 »
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