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Author Topic: Cards that can secretly change deck composition  (Read 5083 times)

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Warfreak2

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Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« on: April 13, 2013, 05:39:28 am »
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More of an observation than a question, but it does make me wonder if DXV realised this when he designed the cards: in a 3+ player game, since Masquerade doesn't instruct you to reveal the cards after passing them around, you don't know what cards are in your opponent's decks any more.

Also, theoretically Rogue/etc. can gain from the trash, and don't instruct you to reveal the gained cards, and other players can't normally look through the trash (I think?). Theoretically they can play Rogues themselves in order to look through and therefore find out what card you took, but they don't always have the opportunity, and if two cards are gained from the trash by different players, in between your trash-inspections, it may be impossible to know who has what cards in their deck. (An edge case when the gain-from-the-trash card is from the Black Market so the other players can't inspect the trash at all).

That has implications for counting the score; primarily, Curses and Estates get passed around, but also you might want to pass a Duchy, or another Victory card better than Estate, if the rest of your hand is exactly the right treasures for buying something good. (As an edge case, a lot of Rabbles followed by Minion and then Masquerade may well force you to pass a green card, and maybe you trashed the estates and only bought Provinces...). Good Victory cards are often in the trash because of being Expanded, or even just remodelled into themselves in the endgame, so Rogue/etc. can also secretly change the score. (Edge cases for gaining from the trash include Silver for Feoda, and Action cards for Vineyards).

Mainly just wondering if that effect is deliberate. Isotropic used to have a score counter, which might therefore actually reveal information to you that you couldn't have known just by watching your opponents very closely and having a good memory.

Edit: I should read the rules - "A player is allowed to count how many cards are left in his deck, but not his discard pile. A player may not look through his deck or his discard pile. A player may look through the trash pile, and players may count the number of cards in any pile in the Supply." So Masquerade is the only one, huh?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 05:43:22 am by Warfreak2 »
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achmed_sender

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2013, 05:42:11 am »
+1

You're allowed to look at the cards in the trash at any moment of the game.
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AJD

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2013, 03:55:52 pm »
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Yes, Masquerade is the only card that can secretly change deck composition. (I expect that's part of why it's called Masquerade—you don't know who's who anymore.) The Isotropic point counter carried a warning in 3+-player Masquerade games that it might not be accurate because it didn't keep track of cards being passed with Masquerade.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 10:27:10 am by AJD »
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florrat

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2013, 08:49:33 am »
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Yes, Masquerade is the only cards that can secretly change deck composition. (I expect that's part of why it's called Masquerade—you don't know who's who anymore.) The Isotropic point counter carried a warning in 3+-player Masquerade games that it might not be accurate because it didn't keep track of cards being passed with Masquerade.
And Isotropic amazes me again. I always assumed the point tracker would give you the correct point counts, such that you received some information "illegaly". But this solution is much better!
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qmech

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 01:02:32 pm »
+1

And Isotropic amazes me again. I always assumed the point tracker would give you the correct point counts, such that you received some information "illegaly". But this solution is much better!

That was true for the unofficial point counter extension: the built-in point counter was perfectly accurate, even with Masquerade.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2013, 07:11:42 pm »
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While we're on the subject of Rogue et al. not telling you to reveal the card you gain from the trash, is it really expected that each other player could pause the game when a Rogue is played, look through the trash to memorise it, resume and then pause again after Rogue is resolved, look through the trash, and identify the missing card? In the interests of not wasting everybody's time, it really seems like Rogue should say "reveal it", since omitting it doesn't enable you to hide what card you gained, and it can't improve gameplay.
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ftl

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2013, 07:24:47 pm »
+2

Eh, in general, you're supposed to tell the other player what you're doing; you're not allowed to just quickly lay some cards down and force the other player to reconstruct what you did from the changes in gamestate. I think saying what you gain with rogue would fall into that...
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Kirian

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2013, 07:39:52 pm »
+1

More specifically, Rogue gains a card, which goes to your discard pile.  The top of your discard pile is visible by everyone.  Therefore the card gained by Rogue is known to everyone--you are obliged to reveal it.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 08:51:03 pm »
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You obviously need to reveal the card gained by Rogue, if only to verify that the cost is between $3 and $6.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2013, 08:53:39 pm »
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And Isotropic amazes me again. I always assumed the point tracker would give you the correct point counts, such that you received some information "illegaly". But this solution is much better!

That was true for the unofficial point counter extension: the built-in point counter was perfectly accurate, even with Masquerade.

This rather ambiguous.  What was true of the unofficial counter?  The built-in was accurate in the sense of giving the true total, or in the sense of accurately reflecting the imperfection of information?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 08:57:26 pm »
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More specifically, Rogue gains a card, which goes to your discard pile.  The top of your discard pile is visible by everyone.  Therefore the card gained by Rogue is known to everyone--you are obliged to reveal it.

Triple post!

Graverobber puts it right on your deck, where it isn't visible.  But it is still public information when you gain something.  The trash is visible, just like the supply.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 07:24:06 am »
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You guys are schooling me a lot, which I appreciate! We've been revealing the cards gained from the trash, without thinking about it, and generally narrating our turns ("Cultist, +2 Cards, each other player gains a ruins, I may play a Cultist from my hand... Cultist, +2 Cards, each other player gains a ruins, I may play a Cultist from my hand... Cultist," is comedy). Just seemed like that "reveal it" should be on the card text.
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ftl

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 03:51:26 pm »
+1

You guys are schooling me a lot, which I appreciate! We've been revealing the cards gained from the trash, without thinking about it, and generally narrating our turns ("Cultist, +2 Cards, each other player gains a ruins, I may play a Cultist from my hand... Cultist, +2 Cards, each other player gains a ruins, I may play a Cultist from my hand... Cultist," is comedy).

I think that's the right way of doing it.

Well, I guess it's possible to go overboard on it, if you really are repeating "Cultist, +2 cards, each other player gains a ruin I may play a cultist from my hand,... I play a cultist" instead of shortening that to "I play a cultist [reach for your deck and draw 2 cards], everyone gain a ruins, I play another cultist with it, everyone gain another ruins". But I think narrating what you do so everyone knows what you did is what you're supposed to do while playing this game. Obviously with experienced players you can shorten what you say to however short it can be while still telling players what's going on. 

Quote
Just seemed like that "reveal it" should be on the card text.

I mean, I just think that it's implicit in the fact that you're supposed to tell other players what you're doing in general. You don't just reach for cards. When you do something in the game, you're supposed to let other players know you did it if it's something they're supposed to know about.

The rules say you "reveal" something when it's something that would OTHERWISE be secret if not revealed. They don't say you need to reveal something when that something is already supposed to be visible to everyone. What you gain from the trash isn't secret in the first place, so the rules don't need to repeat that you reveal it.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 07:17:49 pm »
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I narrate the Cultists in that detail because I find it very amusing! I did only get the cards a few weeks ago, though, and I've been playing mainly with people who I introduced to the game. It would be good to meet up with some other players, but this surely isn't the thread, or the sub-forum, for that.
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ftl

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 07:29:01 pm »
+1

Well, there's a map http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3401.0 where some people have posted their location, see whether there's anyone near you :)

It's pretty sparse sadly.
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qmech

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 04:49:10 am »
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This rather ambiguous.  What was true of the unofficial counter?  The built-in was accurate in the sense of giving the true total, or in the sense of accurately reflecting the imperfection of information?

I edited out AJD's post to keep the size down.  The unofficial counter could only see what you could see, so went haywire in the presence of Masquerade.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 09:52:02 am »
+1

This rather ambiguous.  What was true of the unofficial counter?  The built-in was accurate in the sense of giving the true total, or in the sense of accurately reflecting the imperfection of information?

I edited out AJD's post to keep the size down.  The unofficial counter could only see what you could see, so went haywire in the presence of Masquerade.

Oh of course.  It's an add on which you run yourself, so it doesn't have access to the secret information anymore than you do.  Well, assuming that doug knew better than to send that information (and simply not display it via the interface).
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