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Author Topic: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?  (Read 7808 times)

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Davio

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Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« on: April 11, 2013, 09:19:38 am »
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I believe it has been said that trashing a bunch of cards in one go is an atomic operation, it can't be interrupted. Same with discarding cards with Cellar, Inn, etc... I just don't remember the exact ruling however.

This matters of course for cards like Steward, Forge etc in combination with on-card on-trash abilities.
What happens is that you trash a bunch of cards in one go and then get to activate the on-trash ability of say, Rats.
Problem is that by this time Rats isn't necessarily the top card of the trash pile so you might forget to activate it.

Maybe in real life a good way to solve this problem is to set aside all of the "trashed" cards first (in a way that you can see each one), activate their on-trash abilities and after you've resolved them, finally move them to the actual trash pile. But I'm just not sure whether this conflicts with the lose-track rule.

The infamous lose-track rule specifies that a card can't do something to another card if that other card isn't the place the first card expects it to be anymore. But here this rule doesn't apply for two reasons, it seems:
1. There is no card trying to do something to another card, Rats is trying to act on account of its own trashing
2. Rats is still where it expects to be, in the trash, it's just not necessarily the top card, but it doesn't specify it has to be


The same arguments can be made for Inn and Tunnel. Luckily, the top card of your discard pile doesn't matter, same as the top card of the trash pile. This means that you could discard a Tunnel (first) and a Copper (second, so on top) through Inn, pull Tunnel out from the discard, reveal it, grab a Gold and put it on top of the Copper and finally put Tunnel back on top. Again, this can be solved by temporarily putting the "discarded" cards aside so you don't "mistakenly" reveal some Tunnel that was already in there (but not discarded by Inn).

Some reflections on this?
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Morgrim7

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 09:30:52 am »
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I would assume that once you trash it, even if you are in the middle of resolving another card, you immediately get the bonus?
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clb

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 09:43:06 am »
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I think Donald made that ruling as he was testing DA and shared it with us just before its release. You cannot play a Forge, trash a Cultist, draw 3 cards, then trash a Silver (to the previously played Forge) to gain a Province. You select cards to trash from your hand, trash them, and then decide what order to resolve on-trash instructions.
I believe Remake is worth mentioning because it says "do this twice", the two cards are not trashed simultaneously, and you are allowed to trash the same Fortress twice with a Remake.
I will see if I can find the thread.
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Davio

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 10:02:24 am »
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I guess it matters especially for Forge since you could indeed potentially draw extra cards you'd want to trash off the Cultist.

I guess the timing is something like:

1. Play Forge, select cards to trash from hand and put them all aside
2. Resolve on-trash effects in any order from all of the "trashed" cards
3. You could reveal Market Square here as a reaction to "one of your cards" being trashed (even if multiple cards are trashed)
4. Continue resolving Forge, gain a card with cost in coins equal to the sum of the trashed cards
5. When you're all done with Forge, move all of the cards to the actual trash

So let's assume you are Forging a single a single Rats (costing $4) and 10 Curses.
1. Rats makes you draw a card
2. Since on-card effects have priority over external reactions, in this case Market Square, we could only now reveal and discard MS to gain a Gold
3. Now we can gain a card costing exactly $4
4. For the heck of it, let's gain a Rats and reveal Watchtower to trash it, we must resolve this Rats
5. We're drawing a card, <shuffle>, hey, it's the same MS as before!
6. Since we've now fully resolved trashing that Rats, we could reveal the same MS to gain yet another Gold

This is all allowed, right?
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Morgrim7

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 10:06:18 am »
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No, on Goko when you play a Forge, you click on the cards and they immediately go to the trash, thus immediately executing its ability.
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Davio

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 10:27:54 am »
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No, on Goko when you play a Forge, you click on the cards and they immediately go to the trash, thus immediately executing its ability.
I understand that cards go directly to the trash in an online environment since the system can just track which cards it had to resolve, but in a real life game, it would make more sense to just set the cards aside for a moment and not throw them into the unordered spreadout pile that is the actual trash.

If you Forge away a bunch of Cultists, Rats, Feoda and Fortresses, I think it's a pretty good idea to set everything aside, resolve everything you want/need to resolve and continue counting the coins for Forge (you usually do this in your head beforehand, but still good to check). Just remember to add the coins from the Fortresses that are now back in your hand.

Also, if the trashing operation is not atomic, it could create an endless loop with Fortress. Forge Fortress, put it back, Forge the same Fortress, put it back, etc... hey I can now gain a card costing $400!
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clb

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 11:34:51 am »
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I guess it matters especially for Forge since you could indeed potentially draw extra cards you'd want to trash off the Cultist.

I guess the timing is something like:

1. Play Forge, select cards to trash from hand and put them all aside
2. Resolve on-trash effects in any order from all of the "trashed" cards
3. You could reveal Market Square here as a reaction to "one of your cards" being trashed (even if multiple cards are trashed)
4. Continue resolving Forge, gain a card with cost in coins equal to the sum of the trashed cards
5. When you're all done with Forge, move all of the cards to the actual trash

So let's assume you are Forging a single a single Rats (costing $4) and 10 Curses.
1. Rats makes you draw a card
2. Since on-card effects have priority over external reactions, in this case Market Square, we could only now reveal and discard MS to gain a Gold
3. Now we can gain a card costing exactly $4
4. For the heck of it, let's gain a Rats and reveal Watchtower to trash it, we must resolve this Rats
5. We're drawing a card, <shuffle>, hey, it's the same MS as before!
6. Since we've now fully resolved trashing that Rats, we could reveal the same MS to gain yet another Gold

This is all allowed, right?

Based on my understanding, you have the right of it.
It makes sense for IRL games to have a sort of limbo where cards go on their way to the trash. It seems like one of those things you can do, like oplaying durations sideways, to help make sure you don't miss or skip something.
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ftl

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 12:05:17 pm »
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No, on Goko when you play a Forge, you click on the cards and they immediately go to the trash, thus immediately executing its ability.

No, they fixed that. All on trash abilities are activated at the end, after you have trashed all the cards.
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florrat

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 03:26:50 pm »
+1

1. Play Forge, select cards to trash from hand and put them all aside
2. Resolve on-trash effects in any order from all of the "trashed" cards
3. You could reveal Market Square here as a reaction to "one of your cards" being trashed (even if multiple cards are trashed)
4. Continue resolving Forge, gain a card with cost in coins equal to the sum of the trashed cards
5. When you're all done with Forge, move all of the cards to the actual trash
Aren't you allowed to choose which of 2 and 3 happens first? I thought you could, so it is also allowed to reveal Market Square before resolving on-trash effects, and even a mixed case (reveal MS, resolve on-trash effect 1, reveal another MS, resolve on-trash effect 2, etc). But please correct me if I'm wrong

So consider the following situation:
Hand: Forge, Rats, Market Square, 10 Curses
Deck: Empty, Discard pile: Empty.

You can play forge, trash rats and 10 curses. Reveal MS to gain gold. Resolve rats on-trash effect: reshuffle discard, say you draw your market square. Then you can reveal the exact same market square again as reaction to the trashing.

Can someone confirm or deny that this is allowed?

By the way, on Goko steps 2 and 3 are reversed if I'm correct: you have to reveal all your market squares before you execute the on-trash effects.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2013, 03:29:36 pm »
+1

Yeah, Market Square and Rats trigger at the exact same time -- when you trash a card (Rats is pickier about what card it is).
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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 03:30:32 pm »
+1

Because this is F.DS and nothing can be so simple...

Remake is different, right? Because of the "Do this twice" wording.

GendoIkari

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 03:36:17 pm »
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Because this is F.DS and nothing can be so simple...

Remake is different, right? Because of the "Do this twice" wording.

Yup. Just realized, not only can you trash the same Fortress twice with a Remake, but you can trash a Rats/Cultist/Overgrown Estate, and then trash one of the newly drawn cards as your second card.
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ftl

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2013, 03:42:09 pm »
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With remake, it's

1) Trash one card
2) Resolve on-trash effects
3) Gain a card (maybe), resolving all on-gain effects
4) Trash another card
5) Resolve on-trash effects
6) Gain a card (maybe), resolving all on-gain effects

With other multi-trashers, it's
1) Trash a lot of cards at the same time
2) Resolve all on-trash effects (in any order)
3) Continue with whatever else the trasher told you to do, if anything

If I remember right, currently on Goko, they correctly do that ordering, but they don't let you pick the order of on-trash effects, they just pick an order for you. It only matters when you have multiple on-trash effects AND their default order isn't the one you want, so it's pretty rare for it to matter, but sometimes it does. (I think the edge case I can think of is with one on-trash effect which gains you cards and one which draws you cards, where you might want to do it in one order or the other depending on the details of the reshuffle manipulation.)
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AJD

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2013, 04:27:49 pm »
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I guess the timing is something like:

1. Play Forge, select cards to trash from hand and put them all aside
5. When you're all done with Forge, move all of the cards to the actual trash

I mean, formally that's not what happens; but that seems like a reasonable mechanical way of keeping track of what's going on.

Quote
So let's assume you are Forging a single a single Rats (costing $4) and 10 Curses.
1. Rats makes you draw a card
2. Since on-card effects have priority over external reactions, in this case Market Square, we could only now reveal and discard MS to gain a Gold

As others have noted, you can choose the order of (1) and (2); they're both 'when you trash'.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2013, 05:14:26 pm »
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If I remember right, currently on Goko, they correctly do that ordering, but they don't let you pick the order of on-trash effects, they just pick an order for you. It only matters when you have multiple on-trash effects AND their default order isn't the one you want, so it's pretty rare for it to matter, but sometimes it does. (I think the edge case I can think of is with one on-trash effect which gains you cards and one which draws you cards, where you might want to do it in one order or the other depending on the details of the reshuffle manipulation.)

I recall being asked what order I wanted to activate on-trash abilities in, maybe they fixed it. It even asked for me to pick when the two cards being trashed were the same cards (two hunting grounds).
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ftl

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 05:20:20 pm »
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Hmm. I just tested with Market Square and Rats; it didn't give me the choice of whether to discard market square first to gain a gold or to draw a card first.

I guess it's just Market Square then, since it a reaction and doesn't fit in to the same interface.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 08:46:28 pm »
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Hmm. I just tested with Market Square and Rats; it didn't give me the choice of whether to discard market square first to gain a gold or to draw a card first.

I guess it's just Market Square then, since it a reaction and doesn't fit in to the same interface.


Should it be giving you the choice there? I thought that Market Square being a reaction meant it had to happen first, but I'm not sure.
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ftl

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 09:02:58 pm »
+1

No, it should give you the choice. When you trash something, there's a few different effects that can activate:

1) The card itself can say "when you trash this..."
2) Market square says "When you trash something..."

They're referring to the same event - a card being trashed. They're supposed to happen at the same time, and so the current player should choose which order they happen.
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ftl

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2013, 09:05:24 pm »
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I remember it being discussed as an edge case - technically it's possible to discard the same Market Square card twice to the same trashing event!

(You play Forager, trashing a Cultist. Discard a Market Square from your hand to gain a Gold. Then draw three cards, triggering a shuffle and drawing a Market Square, maybe even the same one. Discard that Market Square to gain a Gold.)
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Davio

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2013, 02:27:17 am »
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No, it should give you the choice. When you trash something, there's a few different effects that can activate:

1) The card itself can say "when you trash this..."
2) Market square says "When you trash something..."

They're referring to the same event - a card being trashed. They're supposed to happen at the same time, and so the current player should choose which order they happen.
You're right, I don't know where I got that idea...  :-\
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florrat

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2013, 06:54:32 pm »
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I remember it being discussed as an edge case - technically it's possible to discard the same Market Square card twice to the same trashing event!

Well... It has been mentioned 10 posts above yours :)
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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 07:43:46 pm »
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Is there a reason to Forge 10 Curses along with the Rats in the examples?

(please don't answer that it is preferable to do that than to keep the Curses)
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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm »
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I remember it being discussed as an edge case - technically it's possible to discard the same Market Square card twice to the same trashing event!

Well... It has been mentioned 10 posts above yours :)

Oops! I didn't notice you'd already said that, sorry for repeating you.
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Davio

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2013, 01:46:12 am »
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Is there a reason to Forge 10 Curses along with the Rats in the examples?

(please don't answer that it is preferable to do that than to keep the Curses)
Well, otherwise you have to get a Copper.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2013, 04:15:26 am »
+1

Is there a reason to Forge 10 Curses along with the Rats in the examples?

(please don't answer that it is preferable to do that than to keep the Curses)
Well, otherwise you have to get a Copper.

Or if the question is, "Why not just forge a single Rats in the example?  Why include 10 curses?"

The thread is about the atomicity of trashing multiple cards at once, so we need multiple trashed cards in the example.  Might as well make it a sweet turn where you take out 10 Curses at once.
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Re: Trashing with Steward/Forge/Chapel is atomic, right?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2013, 11:33:07 am »
+1

The infamous lose-track rule specifies that a card can't do something to another card if that other card isn't the place the first card expects it to be anymore. But here this rule doesn't apply for two reasons, it seems:
1. There is no card trying to do something to another card, Rats is trying to act on account of its own trashing
2. Rats is still where it expects to be, in the trash, it's just not necessarily the top card, but it doesn't specify it has to be

You have the lose-track rule wrong. It's not about a card "doing something" to another card. It's specifically about an effect moving a card. The only card being moved by Rats is the top card of your deck when you draw it into your hand.

Tunnel is not moved when you reveal it from your discard pile, it's revealed but technically stays in the same place.

1. Play Forge, select cards to trash from hand and put them all aside
2. Resolve on-trash effects in any order from all of the "trashed" cards
3. You could reveal Market Square here as a reaction to "one of your cards" being trashed (even if multiple cards are trashed)
4. Continue resolving Forge, gain a card with cost in coins equal to the sum of the trashed cards
5. When you're all done with Forge, move all of the cards to the actual trash

It works as long as you only keep the cards away from trash in order to remind yourself, and you know that they're technically in trash. Not sure if it matters for any current cards though. But yeah, they're technically moved to trash in (1), not (5).
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