Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All

Author Topic: Goko regrets  (Read 34718 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2013, 12:56:31 am »
0

But it is annoying to know that if Goko actually had to compete with other Dominion implementations they'd sink faster than a lead anvil.  They will get my money not because I'm enthusiastic about their product, but because it's (nearly) adequate and they have a monopoly.

This remind me of cellphone companies. Also ISPs 10 or 15 years ago. Also Windows in non-computer professional environments. I'm suddely (re-)realizing how bad monopolies are for the world.
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2013, 07:28:55 am »
+1

Strictly speaking, Goko's not got a monopoly - you can always play a different game online.

That few people seem to be considering that as a realistic option goes to show just how good Dominion is. (-8
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2013, 08:51:09 am »
+3

Strictly speaking, Goko's not got a monopoly - you can always play a different game online.

Like Monopoly? ;)

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1439
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2013, 06:50:45 am »
0

I haven't thought I, as a teetotaller wrt Goko, could contribute to this thread.

But I noticed that some links to older games (as in nine weeks) seem to be dead. As in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6817.msg189033#msg189033

Has anyone else noticed that? Is this a temporary issue? Is this a matter of restructuring the website? Or are game logs taken offline after a while?

Apologies if this is a known and well-discussed issues. I am not around Goko-specific threads too often.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2013, 07:41:49 am »
+1

Has anyone else noticed that? Is this a temporary issue? Is this a matter of restructuring the website? Or are game logs taken offline after a while?

All logs before April are gone from their website, I haven't see any anouncement of this, but it's like that for about a week, seems like it's intended.
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3603
  • Respect: +6121
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2013, 02:37:50 pm »
0

Strictly speaking, Goko's not got a monopoly - you can always play a different game online.

That few people seem to be considering that as a realistic option goes to show just how good Dominion is. (-8

You'd make a wonderful antitrust lawyer.  It's all about defining the relevant market!
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2013, 03:29:17 pm »
0

Strictly speaking, Goko's not got a monopoly - you can always play a different game online.

That few people seem to be considering that as a realistic option goes to show just how good Dominion is. (-8

You'd make a wonderful antitrust lawyer.  It's all about defining the relevant market!

Wouldn't that be more like a protrust lawyer?
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2013, 04:32:42 pm »
0

But it is annoying to know that if Goko actually had to compete with other Dominion implementations they'd sink faster than a lead anvil.  They will get my money not because I'm enthusiastic about their product, but because it's (nearly) adequate and they have a monopoly.

This remind me of cellphone companies. Also ISPs 10 or 15 years ago. Also Windows in non-computer professional environments. I'm suddely (re-)realizing how bad monopolies are for the world.

Except this is not a monopoly in that sense.  This is a monopoly in the sense that RGG has a "monopoly" on publishing Dominion, or that Tor has a "monopoly" on publishing John Scalzi's books.  Oddly, no one complains about lack of competition in those senses.  The competition there is other games in the first case, and other books in the second.

Or, basically what crj said--Goko doesn't have a monopoly on online games.  It doesn't even have a monopoly on online eurogames or online card games.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2013, 04:38:02 pm »
+1

It does have the monopoly on online dominion, though. The competition here would be other dominion implementations.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2013, 04:49:02 pm »
0

It does have the monopoly on online dominion, though. The competition here would be other dominion implementations.

Sure, but suggesting that there should be other, competing, online implementations is the same as suggesting there should be other, competing, offline implementations--that, say, Mayfair or FFG should be able to publish their own version of Dominion, and that we consumers would pick the one with better... I don't know, art?  Cardstock?  Packaging?  You get the point.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2013, 05:12:25 pm »
+1

Right, there's legit reasons for a game maker to have a monopoly on making their own game. Doesn't change the fact that they do. Most of the time it's not something anyone complains about because publishers are pretty good at, well, publishing their games, and the thought "dammit, somebody else could have done this better" doesn't really come to mind. 

In this case, it's not RGG's monopoly on Dominion which is mildly annoying, it's Goko's.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 05:20:22 pm by ftl »
Logged

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1439
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2013, 05:14:21 pm »
0

Yes,we should be entitled to buy Puzzle Strike or Tanto Cuore.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3603
  • Respect: +6121
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2013, 05:33:02 pm »
0

Right, there's legit reasons for a game maker to have a monopoly on making their own game. Doesn't change the fact that they do. Most of the time it's not something anyone complains about because publishers are pretty good at, well, publishing their games, and the thought "dammit, somebody else could have done this better" doesn't really come to mind. 

In this case, it's not RGG's monopoly on Dominion which is mildly annoying, it's Goko's.

I think you pointed out one of the reasons why this isn't a "monopoly": there are good incentives to make a good product because of the threat of substitution.  Make a bad product and the market self-corrects by not buying your item any more.  Contrast this with a true monopoly, where there is little incentive to improve your product quality because people have no adequate substitute.
Logged

GigaKnight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 169
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2013, 05:37:16 pm »
+1

Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2013, 05:41:35 pm »
0

Right, there's legit reasons for a game maker to have a monopoly on making their own game. Doesn't change the fact that they do. Most of the time it's not something anyone complains about because publishers are pretty good at, well, publishing their games, and the thought "dammit, somebody else could have done this better" doesn't really come to mind. 

In this case, it's not RGG's monopoly on Dominion which is mildly annoying, it's Goko's.

I think you pointed out one of the reasons why this isn't a "monopoly": there are good incentives to make a good product because of the threat of substitution.  Make a bad product and the market self-corrects by not buying your item any more.  Contrast this with a true monopoly, where there is little incentive to improve your product quality because people have no adequate substitute.

It's a monopoly because nobody else is allowed to make the same product. How does the threat of substitution of a different product matter to that? There aren't really any products in the world that don't have something you could substitute for them intead... [cue f.ds edge cases]
Logged

GigaKnight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 169
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2013, 05:44:07 pm »
+1

Right, there's legit reasons for a game maker to have a monopoly on making their own game. Doesn't change the fact that they do. Most of the time it's not something anyone complains about because publishers are pretty good at, well, publishing their games, and the thought "dammit, somebody else could have done this better" doesn't really come to mind. 

In this case, it's not RGG's monopoly on Dominion which is mildly annoying, it's Goko's.

I think you pointed out one of the reasons why this isn't a "monopoly": there are good incentives to make a good product because of the threat of substitution.  Make a bad product and the market self-corrects by not buying your item any more.  Contrast this with a true monopoly, where there is little incentive to improve your product quality because people have no adequate substitute.

I think this discussion is quickly getting into the realm of arguing about what "monopoly" means.  Regardless of connotations, we can all agree:

1) Goko is the only authorized producer of an electronic implementation of Dominion.
2) Their implementation is currently lacking.
3) If there were competing licensed implementations, Goko would have more pressure to fix their issues.

Now, whether anybody (RGG / DXV) has any business incentive to allow competing implementations is a different, even-more-hypothetical discussion.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2013, 05:47:41 pm »
+2

Heh, I doubt they'd face more pressure to fix their issues to be honest. They probably face a lot of pressure anyway from their investors, I think they're working as hard as they can anyway.

They've got their hearts in the right place it seems, and they fix things eventually. It's getting better, and maybe it'll be top-notch eventually. It'll just take a while.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 05:55:11 pm by ftl »
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3603
  • Respect: +6121
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2013, 06:00:53 pm »
0

Right, there's legit reasons for a game maker to have a monopoly on making their own game. Doesn't change the fact that they do. Most of the time it's not something anyone complains about because publishers are pretty good at, well, publishing their games, and the thought "dammit, somebody else could have done this better" doesn't really come to mind. 

In this case, it's not RGG's monopoly on Dominion which is mildly annoying, it's Goko's.

I think you pointed out one of the reasons why this isn't a "monopoly": there are good incentives to make a good product because of the threat of substitution.  Make a bad product and the market self-corrects by not buying your item any more.  Contrast this with a true monopoly, where there is little incentive to improve your product quality because people have no adequate substitute.

It's a monopoly because nobody else is allowed to make the same product. How does the threat of substitution of a different product matter to that? There aren't really any products in the world that don't have something you could substitute for them intead... [cue f.ds edge cases]

You do know that there are quite a few successful antitrust cases?  Utilities, sugar, oil, telecommunications, Microsoft Windows, Kodak, etc.  Those suits were successful because they were able to show inadequate demand-side substitution.

Of course, you can argue that Dominion can't be substituted because other games don't provide the same feel (e.g., compare to sports like NFL, which can't be substituted with MLB).  This is what antitrust lawyers are paid to do, to try to define the relevant market.  But the fact that other deckbuilders exist probably undercuts this argument.
Logged

GigaKnight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 169
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2013, 06:15:21 pm »
0

Heh, I doubt they'd face more pressure to fix their issues to be honest. They probably face a lot of pressure anyway from their investors, I think they're working as hard as they can anyway.

They've got their hearts in the right place it seems, and they fix things eventually. It's getting better, and maybe it'll be top-notch eventually. It'll just take a while.

You may be right; I assumed that since their business pitch was basically their platform, they'd probably be more concerned about getting everything to an "acceptable" state and branching out to other games.  Playable and awesome are pretty different, but people often don't know what they're missing until they see awesome.  Their hearts may be in the right place, but I doubt there will be sufficient business incentive for Goko to reach "awesome" in the absence of a good competitor.
Logged

Ozle

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3625
  • Sorry, this text is personal.
  • Respect: +3360
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2013, 06:46:17 pm »
+6

But we're all agreed Monoploy is shit right though?
Stupid game
Logged
Try the Ozle Google Map Challenge!
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7466.0

Sullying players Enjoyment of Innovation since 2013 Apparently!

Ozle

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3625
  • Sorry, this text is personal.
  • Respect: +3360
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2013, 06:46:56 pm »
+2

Wait.....are not there loads of different versions of Monopoly made all over the world these days.....oh the irony!
Logged
Try the Ozle Google Map Challenge!
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7466.0

Sullying players Enjoyment of Innovation since 2013 Apparently!

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2013, 06:49:40 pm »
+4

You do know that there are quite a few successful antitrust cases?  Utilities, sugar, oil, telecommunications, Microsoft Windows, Kodak, etc.  Those suits were successful brought because they were able to show inadequate demand-side substitution.

Of course, you can argue that Dominion can't be substituted because other games don't provide the same feel (e.g., compare to sports like NFL, which can't be substituted with MLB).  This is what antitrust lawyers are paid to do, to try to define the relevant market.  But the fact that other deckbuilders exist probably undercuts this argument.
Right, and in those cases, there's obviously things that can be substituted for the product, so "there isn't any substitute" isn't necessary for something to be a monopoly, which was my point in the first place, I think? Just because you can not use the product and use something else instead doesn't mean that there's no such thing as a monopoly over the product...

Anyway, context matters. I think it's obvious that in the context of Dominion, Goko has a monopoly on making online dominion at the moment, as they're the only ones that can do it. In the context of board games as a whole, obviously nobody has a monopoly on making online games! When talking to a bunch of people on a dominion board, the "relevant market" is, well, playing Dominion, when talking to antitrust lawyers and/or filing a lawsuit, the relevant market is whatever the law says it is, I assume, I don't know antitrust law.

Though I'm surprised that there's even an argument there. Isn't the whole point of intellectual property basically to give somebody a monopoly over the thing they design? Of course inventing Dominion gives DXV has a monopoly on making Dominion (which he can then sell/license/whatever to RGG, who can then do the same for Goko). That's the whole point, isn't it?

But we're all agreed Monoploy is shit right though?
Stupid game

Agreed.
Logged

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1439
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2013, 03:36:45 am »
0

Though I'm surprised that there's even an argument there. Isn't the whole point of intellectual property basically to give somebody a monopoly over the thing they design?

Have an upvote. Monopolies are discussed about here only in the context of antitrust suits, which leads us to thinking that they are a thing to be battled rather than respected.

If I got it right, a dominant market position amounting to a monopoly is not something which can be tackled at the court level. Only if someone abuses their market position to for instance obtain a share of another market, the monopoly may be challenged. In the case of Microsoft, the dominant market share of desktop computer operating systems (and more or less a monopoly on operating systems where most software would run on) was not challenged before they tried to use it to dominate the web browser market.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

yudantaiteki

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 234
  • Respect: +167
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2013, 11:14:31 am »
+2

A product like a game introduces a factor that makes the concept of monopoly a little fuzzier than with other products.  Prestige Brands is the only company that can make and market Comet (cleanser), but that's not a "monopoly" since you can buy other cleansers from different companies.

With a game it's a little different; Square-Enix is the only company that can make Final Fantasy games -- of course there are other games out there, but a Final Fantasy game can't just be swapped for another game in the same way that Comet can be swapped for another cleanser.  It's the same thing with Dominion; saying that you can play Innovation or Ticket to Ride instead is different from saying that you can buy 409 or generic cleanser instead of Comet.

I'm certainly not saying that the antitrust laws should be revised for games, but the issues are a little different than most products.  Personally, if I thought that a game is a game is a game, I would delete the Goko bookmark from my browser and never give it a second thought, but I like Dominion enough that I'm willing to put up with their (nearly) adequate implementation to be able to play it online.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 11:15:42 am by yudantaiteki »
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2013, 11:47:02 am »
+1

I don't really care about the word monopoly, and I agree there is no ilegal or illegitimate usage of the exclusive rights (look, I avoided the word monopoly) of a Dominion implementation going on.

My point when comparing goko Dominion to cellphones or ISPs is that they get away with a bad implementation because they rest assured on their money buying the success of others (in this case, the great game put together by DXV/RGG -for this argument, we can consider them one giant team, even though they are not). ISPs rest on the great thing that is to have internet access (or some particular access like broadband or something) and cellphone carriers rest on the fact that is a great idea to have working cellphones. So, ISPs provided a shitty and/or overpriced service but as long as they had some sort of monopoly (which was actually an oligopoly, at least in Argentina) they could get away with it because the internet is so awesome. Same thing with cellphones and same thing with online Dominion.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All
 

Page created in 0.145 seconds with 21 queries.