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Author Topic: Goko regrets  (Read 34715 times)

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dondon151

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2013, 10:51:28 pm »
0

I don't doubt that some people who have not played Iso before dislike Goko because it's not very good.
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DrKlahn

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2013, 10:54:22 pm »
+28

I'm a Dominion n00b, for the most part. I discovered the game just before xmas this past year and immediately bought all of the cards. I discovered Isotropic in January and started playing every night. I was rated ~35 on Iso before it shut down and I switched to Goko.

Despite all the problems with Goko, I've really enjoyed playing against the bots that Goko provides. For someone at my skill level, it's a great way to learn the game at a fast pace. I've played about 500 - 600 games on Goko, almost all against the bots. As a n00b, I found the community on Isotropic to be a bit intimidating-- I played several games where an opponent ended up bitching at me in the chat box because I was taking too long. I eventually stopped playing automatches against strangers because I was encountering a lot of people who were hostile and ridiculously impatient (complaining if a turn takes more than 10s).

Now that I've learned the cards and have a grasp on basic strategy, I'm trying to switch to multiplayer on Goko and am having a very difficult time. The bugs and interface issues are just as bad as everyone says. I get the black screen probably every other day. It randomly moves from browser to browser. Some days Chrome is fine, other days the game will only run in Firefox. Sometimes it will only run on Firefox Nightly. Sometimes it won't start in any of my browsers. I've had many days where the game just randomly dies and times out while I'm playing, which probably sets my rating back. One afternoon a couple of weeks ago I hit reload on probably 40 - 50 hands before I just gave up. I'd finish a game without any issues, then go through a string of 5 - 10 attempts that would hang after a few turns. Fantastic for my win/loss ratio.

Regarding the interface issues, all of the points raised are spot-on. I've spent most of the last decade as a user experience designer (design lead on Gmail for ~3.5 years, among other things), and there are a lot of fairly small changes that could make the experience much, much better. My biggest frustrations have already been mentioned-- I end up discarding things by accident all the time, particularly when playing at "fast" or "very fast," and I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally ended my turn when I meant to play treasures. These are muscle memory mistakes that are the result of poor design. These things often get worse as you spend more time with the product. You get used to clicking in a certain place after playing the game several hundred times, and when an exception occurs, it's very easy to click before you realize that you're not in the state you thought you were. It took me forever to figure out how to find the second page of cards in games that have more than 10. For a while I thought the bots were cheating and were somehow able to buy stuff that wasn't in the supply. These are not  issues of paying more attention to the game or learning its quirks-- they are design flaws, pure and simple. One round of usability studies conducted on players of varying skill levels would bring these issues to light, along with a ton of other small things.

There are many other threads on the forum about the other issues-- the joyless adventure mode that requires you to use zaps in order to balance your bad hand against the bot's overly generous hand, the poorly-conceived use of virtual currency, the lack of automatch, the lack of point tracking, etc, etc.

All of those things aside, the thing I find most surprising about Goko is that they are failing pretty miserably when it comes to building a strong community of fans. Yes, I want them to build a solid version of the basic game before they move on to other stuff, but there are so many obvious community features that should have been launched with the game: profile pages, statistics, logging and analysis, spectator mode, friend lists, forums, etc. As someone who is pretty new to the game, I want to connect with other people who are at roughly the same skill level and are interested in learning and exploring the game at the same pace. I want to get better at the game and learn new strategies from more experienced players. It's really hard, if not impossible, to do that on Goko.

I guess the bright spot is that the black screen finally got me to register for this site, which is a real treasure. :)
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spiritbears

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2013, 11:11:56 pm »
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Ooh, ooh! Are we talking about Goko interface issues?!

LastFootnote, IMO, the Goko misclicks are 100% bad interface design.  I've played through the free Adventure mode stuff because I was curious, and I can't tell you how many times I discarded cards I meant to play because my opponent had actually played a Militia.  You say "play slower," but that's exactly the thing I hate about Goko.  I want to play *fast* and... guess where I could do that before?  Iso!  Now I have to artificially slow my pace of play to accommodate a bad (albeit pretty) interface.  Iso let me play much faster, for a variety of reasons.

Which touches on a larger issue.  I think the main reason people are disappointed in Goko has very little to do with Goko and a lot to do with the fact that Iso was so much better.  It's like we were given gourmet ice cream and now they're charging for the cheap stuff.  Sorry, I got a taste of the good stuff and now I'd happily pay for that - but I'm not going to pay for an inferior product.  That may make it sound like Iso was bad for Dominion, but the big thing it did was create an online community that really loves the game.  It's too bad the poor execution of Goko couldn't capitalize on that well.
Yes. I paid for all goko. But it is and always will be an inferior product to Iso for many (well most) players.  The kind folks at RGG (and probably x) either don't comprehend this, or just don't care, or maybe are deeply regretting  their decision right now.  Even as fast as the rooms are growing I really doubt they are selling nearly enough to cover the investment. Keeping iso up and actively supporting it could have been a way to keep the old and the new players.  It seems more and more people are moving on to iso innovation, and if I can learn the game, I probably will too.  Such a pity that such a great product (isodom) was so undervalued by the real decision makers. The "you're getting something for free" mindset was so unfortunate....they should have been thinking:  this product is damn good, how can we be involved, or how can we develop it/integrate it.  A smart lawyer would have never let his client kill something of such obvious value to the franchise.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2013, 11:28:57 pm »
0

All of those things aside, the thing I find most surprising about Goko is that they are failing pretty miserably when it comes to building a strong community of fans. Yes, I want them to build a solid version of the basic game before they move on to other stuff, but there are so many obvious community features that should have been launched with the game: profile pages, statistics, logging and analysis, spectator mode, friend lists, forums, etc. As someone who is pretty new to the game, I want to connect with other people who are at roughly the same skill level and are interested in learning and exploring the game at the same pace. I want to get better at the game and learn new strategies from more experienced players. It's really hard, if not impossible, to do that on Goko.

Man, that is a very good point! This community (me included) has been so hung up on Isotropic vs. Goko that I'd never considered some of these features that Iso never had, but that Goko really should. Ugh, it's really depressing how much they've dropped the ball when I think about it that way.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2013, 12:11:37 am »
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Hypothetical, slightly in response to yuma's worry:

If Goko goes under, and Goko Dominion is no longer available, does iso become available again?

Sounds like a reason to boycott...
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2013, 12:24:12 am »
0

Hypothetical, slightly in response to yuma's worry:

If Goko goes under, and Goko Dominion is no longer available, does iso become available again?

Sounds like a reason to boycott...
If the answer is yes, then we should all cross our fingers for failure! But really, If it does fail, RGG should reapproach Dougz and try to renegotiate something. If there are hurt feelings involved (on any side) let the lawyers do the negotiating.   That's what they exist for....
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2013, 03:45:24 am »
+2

Such a pity that such a great product (isodom) was so undervalued by the real decision makers. The "you're getting something for free" mindset was so unfortunate....they should have been thinking:  this product is damn good, how can we be involved, or how can we develop it/integrate it.  A smart lawyer would have never let his client kill something of such obvious value to the franchise.

I still hate this argument.  isotropic was absolutely valued by Donald X, and almost certainly by RGG as well.  They WERE involved with iso.  It was used for tons of play testing!  They approached dougz before Goko was ever in the picture! 

I have no idea what you mean when you say that the "you're getting something for free" mindset is unfortunate.  do you mean that RGG should have let iso continue as a free service, never monetizing their product?  It's unreasonable to say that a company should not be allowed to do what they can to make money.  Do you mean that they should have tried to monetize iso?  Again, they totally did approach dougz about it.  We don't know the details, but it's not like we need them.  All we need to know is that dougz turned down the offer, and whatever reasons for that are between him and RGG.
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Reyk

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2013, 05:33:56 am »
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I still hate this argument.  isotropic was absolutely valued by Donald X, and almost certainly by RGG as well.  They WERE involved with iso.  It was used for tons of play testing!  They approached dougz before Goko was ever in the picture! 

I have no idea what you mean when you say that the "you're getting something for free" mindset is unfortunate.

I guess it's the pizza thing. Donald complains about people who are complaining about the free stuff gone when in reality they would have paid for Iso. It's not so much a Goko vs. Iso thing, but the general approach: Making an online version that is oriented at the real life experience.

I've learned Dominion real life (and with 4 players -> another mistake) and stayed away from the game for 2 years. I've tried Iso nevertheless (when prosperity came out) and it teached me how great and deep Dominion is.

I've tried Goko then and recently the Dark Ages cards real life due to the lack of alternatives. It was a real pain. It might have been possible in the old days with the base game, but turns become much more complex. You simply need an Isotropic like interface to play competitively and notice all things you have to notice and play mega turns appropiately. Both Goko (animation speed, general view) and real life (administrative effort) fail in that regard.

So, yes: I'm playing RftG (Goko threatening here as well, but it's good real life too) now and will try Innovation. I probably won't fully explore Dark Ages, which is a pity.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 05:35:57 am by Reyk »
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2013, 08:55:00 am »
+2

that's exactly the thing I hate about Goko.  I want to play *fast* and... guess where I could do that before?  Iso!


When you started playing Iso, did you play fast? Did you play flawlessly? Were you able to grok the interface right away?

Unless you're really a robot, I'm going to presume the answer to all three of those questions is no.

It can take time to grok the Goko interface, and you're not going to be fast. Not immediately. You're going to pick up on certain cues and know that a Bishop's been played before you click on a card. It'll happen, but it'll take several games to get those cues in your brain. I experienced a lot of issues playing Androminion; I was screwing up games left and right because I tried to play too quickly before I was at the point where I could recognize cues. Now I play games quickly on Androminion because I'm used to the interface.

That's not to say the Goko interface can't be improved. It most certainly could. There can be some interface changes that make full integration a quicker process. Androminion improved its UI, and my games became even faster, so don't think I'm wholly dismissing the interface concerns. But part of it also boils down to playing enough games that these things become automatic. The Isotropic experts didn't start off that way.

You might still dislike the UI, but that doesn't mean you couldn't become proficient with it. And hopefully Goko will implement thoughtful suggestions to make the experience easier.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2013, 09:05:51 am »
+1

that's exactly the thing I hate about Goko.  I want to play *fast* and... guess where I could do that before?  Iso!


When you started playing Iso, did you play fast? Did you play flawlessly? Were you able to grok the interface right away?

Unless you're really a robot, I'm going to presume the answer to all three of those questions is no.

It can take time to grok the Goko interface, and you're not going to be fast. Not immediately. You're going to pick up on certain cues and know that a Bishop's been played before you click on a card. It'll happen, but it'll take several games to get those cues in your brain. I experienced a lot of issues playing Androminion; I was screwing up games left and right because I tried to play too quickly before I was at the point where I could recognize cues. Now I play games quickly on Androminion because I'm used to the interface.

Wishful thinking. At least in my case. I've played almost 1000 games on Goko since Iso went down and still hate the interface as much as when I started out. It makes me do more unintentional stuff in a single day than I did in all my games on iso combined.
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spiritbears

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2013, 10:02:24 am »
+1

Such a pity that such a great product (isodom) was so undervalued by the real decision makers. The "you're getting something for free" mindset was so unfortunate....they should have been thinking:  this product is damn good, how can we be involved, or how can we develop it/integrate it.  A smart lawyer would have never let his client kill something of such obvious value to the franchise.

I still hate this argument.  isotropic was absolutely valued by Donald X, and almost certainly by RGG as well.  They WERE involved with iso.  It was used for tons of play testing!  They approached dougz before Goko was ever in the picture! 

I have no idea what you mean when you say that the "you're getting something for free" mindset is unfortunate.  do you mean that RGG should have let iso continue as a free service, never monetizing their product?  It's unreasonable to say that a company should not be allowed to do what they can to make money.  Do you mean that they should have tried to monetize iso?  Again, they totally did approach dougz about it.  We don't know the details, but it's not like we need them.  All we need to know is that dougz turned down the offer, and whatever reasons for that are between him and RGG.
This is exactly why lawyers should have done the negotiating. When it's personal....good results are hard to come by.  And no one can say killing iso Dom was a good thing (unless you buy x's freeloader argument outweighs the good, and you readily admit that iso had value beyond gameplay (testing, coding, etc, community of players (hard to replace that, and goko doesn't seem to be trying to).  The thing is, the freeloader problem always has an answer---killing the host to smite the virus, is just an incredibly bad one. 
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2013, 11:45:22 am »
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Two things wrong with that. First, maybe lawyers were involved. Again, we don't know the details. Second, maybe dougz doesn't have a lawyer on retainer, you know?

Besides, lawyers only ever make things worse. /jokes  ;)
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2013, 11:52:26 am »
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And also, you keep saying that Donald complained about freeloaders, but I don't think tthat's true. He complained (and rightfully, imo) that people were arguing against monetizing online Dominion. IIRC, those arguments weren't made against people who would have paid for Iso. Rather, it was addressing the entitled idea that people shouldn't have to pay for what was once free to them.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2013, 02:30:22 pm »
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And also, you keep saying that Donald complained about freeloaders, but I don't think tthat's true. He complained (and rightfully, imo) that people were arguing against monetizing online Dominion. IIRC, those arguments weren't made against people who would have paid for Iso. Rather, it was addressing the entitled idea that people shouldn't have to pay for what was once free to them.

The problem I saw was that his frustration leaked into at least one thread where people were doing nothing but pleading to pay for Iso.  That was never a real possibility and I'm sure he got tired of people suggesting it, but it looks really crappy to insult people who love your product.  It would have been wiser, IMO, to simply not engage in that no-win discussion.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2013, 02:49:36 pm »
+1

that's exactly the thing I hate about Goko.  I want to play *fast* and... guess where I could do that before?  Iso!


When you started playing Iso, did you play fast? Did you play flawlessly? Were you able to grok the interface right away?

Unless you're really a robot, I'm going to presume the answer to all three of those questions is no.

It can take time to grok the Goko interface, and you're not going to be fast. Not immediately. You're going to pick up on certain cues and know that a Bishop's been played before you click on a card. It'll happen, but it'll take several games to get those cues in your brain. I experienced a lot of issues playing Androminion; I was screwing up games left and right because I tried to play too quickly before I was at the point where I could recognize cues. Now I play games quickly on Androminion because I'm used to the interface.

Wishful thinking. At least in my case. I've played almost 1000 games on Goko since Iso went down and still hate the interface as much as when I started out. It makes me do more unintentional stuff in a single day than I did in all my games on iso combined.

To add to this, it's really not just an issue of training.  DrKlahn hit on this when he said this type of problem can actually get worse over time instead of better.

Fundamentally, it's the problem of poorly-designed context-sensitive actions.  It's bad design to assign multiple meanings to the same action because it requires the user to fully know the game state to know what, for example, clicking on a card will do.  On Iso, discarding and playing happen in different areas with very distinct actions (and a confirm button).  Ending your turn is a specific button, also with a specific confirm action.

On Iso, I can't ever remember misclicking because I didn't understand the game state.  It was always a mechanical error or a tactical error.  I can't say the same for Goko.

Don't get me wrong, Iso had problems, but very few of them got in the way of core gameplay.  It's totally possible to make a quick, beautiful interface that enables fast play instead of hinders it.  Goko has so-far failed in this respect; I hope they can eventually get it right.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 03:12:54 pm by GigaKnight »
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2013, 03:02:18 pm »
+6

Go lurk Dominionstrategy a bit...leave sad =(
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2013, 03:05:31 pm »
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And also, you keep saying that Donald complained about freeloaders, but I don't think tthat's true. He complained (and rightfully, imo) that people were arguing against monetizing online Dominion. IIRC, those arguments weren't made against people who would have paid for Iso. Rather, it was addressing the entitled idea that people shouldn't have to pay for what was once free to them.

I can only remember him talking about freeloaders when people were complaining either that Goko was too expensive or that it didn't have all the sets and therefore wasn't worth spending any money on.  I don't believe he ever talked about it in response to criticisms of Goko's interface or features.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2013, 03:48:42 pm »
+1

Fundamentally, it's the problem of poorly-designed context-sensitive actions.  It's bad design to assign multiple meanings to the same action because it requires the user to fully know the game state to know what, for example, clicking on a card will do.  On Iso, discarding and playing happen in different areas with very distinct actions (and a confirm button).  Ending your turn is a specific button, also with a specific confirm action.

Iso did have one major UI flaw that falls under this category. On other players' turns, the "Info" button was in the same location as the "End Turn" button on your own turn (or maybe it was the "+$" button) - see this thread. This often made me click the wrong button. Of course, Iso had a "are you sure" red text to make it so that at least you could take back the click.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2013, 04:00:44 pm »
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I don't hate Goko's interface SO much... but I'm always trashing the card I want to play whenever I just played Masquerade, or Jack, or my opponent played Bishop.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2013, 04:52:22 pm »
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Fundamentally, it's the problem of poorly-designed context-sensitive actions.  It's bad design to assign multiple meanings to the same action because it requires the user to fully know the game state to know what, for example, clicking on a card will do.  On Iso, discarding and playing happen in different areas with very distinct actions (and a confirm button).  Ending your turn is a specific button, also with a specific confirm action.

Iso did have one major UI flaw that falls under this category. On other players' turns, the "Info" button was in the same location as the "End Turn" button on your own turn (or maybe it was the "+$" button) - see this thread. This often made me click the wrong button. Of course, Iso had a "are you sure" red text to make it so that at least you could take back the click.

Yes, that's true and I thought of it but also thought the confirmation made it excusable.  Not good design (in fact, exactly the main problem with Goko), but I didn't ever actually end my turn unless I meant to.  I should have abstracted my comment from "misclicked" to "taken the wrong action".
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2013, 07:57:52 pm »
0

Such a pity that such a great product (isodom) was so undervalued by the real decision makers. The "you're getting something for free" mindset was so unfortunate....they should have been thinking:  this product is damn good, how can we be involved, or how can we develop it/integrate it.  A smart lawyer would have never let his client kill something of such obvious value to the franchise.

I still hate this argument.  isotropic was absolutely valued by Donald X, and almost certainly by RGG as well.  They WERE involved with iso.  It was used for tons of play testing!  They approached dougz before Goko was ever in the picture! 

I have no idea what you mean when you say that the "you're getting something for free" mindset is unfortunate.  do you mean that RGG should have let iso continue as a free service, never monetizing their product?  It's unreasonable to say that a company should not be allowed to do what they can to make money.  Do you mean that they should have tried to monetize iso?  Again, they totally did approach dougz about it.  We don't know the details, but it's not like we need them.  All we need to know is that dougz turned down the offer, and whatever reasons for that are between him and RGG.
This is exactly why lawyers should have done the negotiating. When it's personal....good results are hard to come by.  And no one can say killing iso Dom was a good thing (unless you buy x's freeloader argument outweighs the good, and you readily admit that iso had value beyond gameplay (testing, coding, etc, community of players (hard to replace that, and goko doesn't seem to be trying to).  The thing is, the freeloader problem always has an answer---killing the host to smite the virus, is just an incredibly bad one.

On the "community of players" bit -- I can so see Goko creating a players' forum for people to log onto, have threads on strategy, articles on cards, etc.  WoW has one, just about every online game has official forums.

They can't make theory shut us down, though.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2013, 08:24:44 pm »
0

If I understood the rating system better and there was automatch, I would probably start playing on Goko more. But it would have to be with the log extension.

The interface is okay, but I feel it isn't quite as good. Once I got used to the Iso interface, it all felt very intuitive and streamlined. Whereas with the Goko interface, it took much longer for me to understand all of its quirks. There was only so much time for the interface to win me over, and it didn't make it.

I'm more focused on automatch than the interface though.
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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2013, 10:14:19 am »
+5

After playing about a dozen games or so on Goko (enough for an opinion), here's what I can say about it:

It's not as bad as you'd think, it's not as good as you'd hope.

Finding a game is very annoying and obviously the multi-screens issues, but the games themselves play out decently fast though. I would have just liked if they made it more "pro friendly", not that I'm such a great player, but more options to turn off fancy stuff and be able to focus on the actual gameplay a bit better.
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dondon151

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2013, 08:00:38 pm »
+1

On the "community of players" bit -- I can so see Goko creating a players' forum for people to log onto, have threads on strategy, articles on cards, etc.  WoW has one, just about every online game has official forums.

They can't make theory shut us down, though.

Or they could, you know, just support the existing "unofficial" community. We are pretty well-established and it is completely baffling that they almost do not interact with us in any way.

After playing about a dozen games or so on Goko (enough for an opinion), here's what I can say about it:

It's not as bad as you'd think, it's not as good as you'd hope.

And unfortunately, this is what is going to keep Goko afloat. It is depressing to see a company get away with providing a thoroughly mediocre product, but as long as they are just "good enough," they have sole rights to many of the games that the players desperately want.

I would have just liked if they made it more "pro friendly", not that I'm such a great player, but more options to turn off fancy stuff and be able to focus on the actual gameplay a bit better.

Oh, don't be so modest, Davio, we all know that you're among the best in the world  :)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 08:01:58 pm by dondon151 »
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Goko regrets
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2013, 10:44:19 pm »
+2


After playing about a dozen games or so on Goko (enough for an opinion), here's what I can say about it:

It's not as bad as you'd think, it's not as good as you'd hope.

And unfortunately, this is what is going to keep Goko afloat. It is depressing to see a company get away with providing a thoroughly mediocre product, but as long as they are just "good enough," they have sole rights to many of the games that the players desperately want.

Agreed.  Goko is good enough and the price is low enough that if they just get automatch working I will pay for the sets -- I don't really have a problem with the speed or interface.

But it is annoying to know that if Goko actually had to compete with other Dominion implementations they'd sink faster than a lead anvil.  They will get my money not because I'm enthusiastic about their product, but because it's (nearly) adequate and they have a monopoly.
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