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Author Topic: Expansion - "Underworld"  (Read 2946 times)

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Jimmy Jimmy

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Expansion - "Underworld"
« on: October 04, 2011, 02:08:51 am »
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The primary theme of the Cornucopia set was reward for having a variety of cards in your deck. This set seeks to reward the opposite: having many copies of the same card in your deck. A secondary theme is the introduction of 'Permanent' actions, which stay in play until and unless you choose to discard them during your cleanup phase. Underworld is a smaller expansion (like Cornucopia or Alchemy) of only 13 cards.
 

Agent

Action
Cost: 5

+1 action
+1 card for each Agent in play, including this one.
 

Inn

Victory
Cost: 5

Worth 1 VP for each Inn in your deck.

Loot

Treasure
Cost: 5

Value: ?

Before you play this card, name a card. This card is worth $1 for each copy of the named card that you have in play.


Abandoned Village

Action
Cost: 2

+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal your hand. You may discard cards from your hand until you only have a single type of card in your hand. If you do, +1 Action.

 

Mercenary

Action - Attack
Cost: 4

+1 Action
+1 card

You may discard a treasure card from your hand. If you do, each opponent discards his hand down to three cards.


Arsonist

Action
Cost: 3

Trash any three kingdom cards from the supply.
 

Double Agent

Action/Reaction
Cost: 4

+1 Card
+1 action
Each other player reveals his hand.

***

Reaction: play in response to another player playing a treasure card. That player discards that card. Then you discard this card.

 
Assassin

Action - attack
Cost: 5

Name a player and an action card. That player reveals his hand and, if he has any of the named action card in hand, he trashes one of them, then draws a card.

 
Sycophant

Action
Cost: 2

+1 card
+1 action
You may gain a sycophant.
 

Church

Action
Cost: 3

Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal the named card, then trash that card

 
Grave robber

Action
Cost: 4

Choose one:

+$2; or
Gain any card from the trash and put it on your deck.


Castle

Action - Permanent*
Cost: 8

So long as you have a greater number of castles in play than another player, that player's attacks do not affect you.

 
Investment

Action - Permanent
Cost: 7

At the beginning of each turn that this card is in play: +$1

 

*A permanent action stays in play until and unless you elect to discard it during your cleanup phase.
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def

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Re: Expansion - "Underworld"
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 06:11:52 am »
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Hi Jimmy Jimmy!

Generally, I think there are some great cards you came up with. With this special theme, there are some balancing problems, though.

Inn is somehow similar to Duke. However, Duke needs Duchies, is slower and can therefore be countered by either reacting early and buying Duchies and Dukes or coming up with a different strategy.
Inns don't need any support. Buy some Horse Traders or other helpers and get going. As an opponent, you can't afford to let one player grab all Inns, which could happen very fast and lead to more victory points than Provinces (or even Colonies in 3-player-games).
So, putting Embargo aside, this card forces both players to buy it if one player starts buying it. I don't like cards that do this.

Agent is similar to Labs until you start playing more than three copies, which is not this easy due to the slow start. Loot can become really strong with many Agents, Labs, Minions, Hunting Parties, and so on, which is a problem, but when you played 10 Labs, you probably win anyway (as long you didn't miss the moment to start going green).

What about this soft counter of its ability: "When you have Loot in play, you can't buy the card you named."?

Assassin: Think about all other attacks: None of them targets a specific player. This way, the game remains fair and ganging up on one player isn't easily possible in multiplayer games.
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Newcomer

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Re: Expansion - "Underworld"
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 09:39:52 am »
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Some fun ideas. Here are my two cents.

def hit on my thoughts with Inn.

Arsonist is a fun idea. I'd think long and hard about the consequences of having such a card, though. The game can end really quickly on piles, so a whole lot of strategy would change. I think that would encourage players to avoid trashing, grab a few Silvers and an Arsonist, and go green. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, I'd just say think about whether that will fit with your intent.

Sycophant enables Loot, Conspirator, Peddler, Gardens, and maybe a few other cards, but on most boards it seems like a completely useless card that doesn't do anything. I understand the thought, but I'm wondering if there's anything small you could do to make it buyable more often.

If you haven't read rinkworks's guide yet, I definitely recommend it. It's long but really, really good. His part on cards dealing with the trash is pertinent here. Looking at Grave Robber, most of the time there isn't going to be anything good to gain from the trash. And even with trash-for-benefit cards like Remake out, players will avoid trashing good cards if Grave Robber is out there to take them. So that leaves Grave Robber as a $4 terminal silver. I'd almost always buy Silver instead.

I think Castle is way overpriced. Right now, you'd have to choose it over a Province, and if anyone else buys one, you're back to square one against them. I kind of like the idea, but I could see it costing more along the lines of $4 and working fine.

Similarly, I've been toying with a card that is identical to Investment, but I currently have it as a $5 card. I think you're instinct is that the card is powerful, so it needs to cost a lot. But at such a price, I don't know if it's worth buying very often. But play-testing would reveal the answer. Maybe it's too much of a must-buy at a lower cost.
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AJD

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Re: Expansion - "Underworld"
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 10:00:16 am »
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Inn

Victory
Cost: 5

Worth 1 VP for each Inn in your deck.

I think it's a missed opportunity not to call this "Town Square".
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rinkworks

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Re: Expansion - "Underworld"
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 11:52:29 am »
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The primary theme of the Cornucopia set was reward for having a variety of cards in your deck. This set seeks to reward the opposite: having many copies of the same card in your deck.

I guess my concern here is that having lots of the same card in your deck just isn't very interesting.  It's also something that tends to happen anyway -- for example, someone spamming Laboratories or Hunting Parties or Minions.  Even in multi-card decks, you don't tend to go for a lot of variety.  Lots of Torturers + lots of whatever Village is available, for instance.

That said, you have some interesting ideas about building on this theme, so it's not completely unworkable.  In fact, Hunting Party is just such a card (despite being in Cornucopia) and is a lot of fun.

These are creative ideas you have, but I think a fair number of them will need tweaking to make work.  My thoughts below:

Quote
Agent
Action
Cost: 5
+1 action
+1 card for each Agent in play, including this one.
[/b]

This is the same card as Collaboration, from this thread.  My comments are there.
 

Quote
Inn
Victory
Cost: 5
Worth 1 VP for each Inn in your deck.

This card is actually how Duke started out.  When Donald was playtesting, he realized that it had a variance problem and changed it to what Duke is now to fix it.  You can read Donald's brief remarks on this in the Duke entry of The Secret History of the Intrigue Cards.

Quote
Loot
Treasure
Cost: 5
Value: ?
Before you play this card, name a card. This card is worth $1 for each copy of the named card that you have in play.

I think this is my favorite idea of yours.  I'd be worried that it's just too strong in some cases (for instance, in a Laboratory deck, this card is going to be worth $5+ every time you play it, and probably playable on every turn).  But it seems like this should be tweakable somehow.  def's suggested nerf seems like a great idea for balancing the card in the early- and mid-game, but still leaves it as a powerhouse in the endgame.

This is a pretty tricky card to balance, actually.  It reminds me of what Donald went through to try to balance Horn of Plenty, which is basically the same idea, just inverted.  The design of Horn of Plenty is very subtly delicate.  As such, it's worth reading its entry in The Secret History of the Cornucopia Cards, as many of the pitfalls with that card will apply to this one as well.

Quote
Abandoned Village
Action
Cost: 2
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal your hand. You may discard cards from your hand until you only have a single type of card in your hand. If you do, +1 Action.

Love this.  I might spice it up a bit by awarding +2 Actions if you discard down.  That would still be only a $2 card, as the situations where that additional action helps would be infrequent, but at least then it would be a card that can do something an ordinary Village can't do better.  Still, really intriguing idea.

Quote
Mercenary
Action - Attack
Cost: 4
+1 Action
+1 card
You may discard a treasure card from your hand. If you do, each opponent discards his hand down to three cards.

Not a fan of this at all, for the simple reason that it never benefits you.  It would be too weak even without the discard-a-treasure requirement, as all +1 Card/+1 Action does for you is give you the hand you'd have had if you hadn't bought the card in the first place.  You get a nice attack out of it, sure, but you're not furthering your own deck at all.  In fact, you're hurting it.  Moreover, there's an excellent chance you'll be hurting your own hand worse than the attack hurts your opponents hands, since often they will have a pair of Victory cards to discard.

Contrast with Militia, which may be a terminal action, but it provides some money instead of taking it away.  The only attacks that don't directly benefit you are Sea Hag, Saboteur, and Familiar.  The lack of a direct benefit to yourself is compensated for by the fact that the attacks are so harsh.  This one isn't severe enough to fall in that category.  It's not even severe enough when spammed, which would otherwise be the benefit for making it a non-terminal, because the attack can only hit each player one time, no matter how many of them you play.

Quote
Arsonist
Action
Cost: 3
Trash any three kingdom cards from the supply.

Probably balanced and fine, but I'm not sure it's as interesting to trash supply cards as it sounds.  Sometimes you'd really want to do it, in which case this card would be outstanding.  But you probably wouldn't want to do this very often within the course of a single game, and if you did, you'd probably need to be able to time that move more exactly than random shuffle luck can guarantee.

But I could be very wrong on this, so it's well-worth playtesting.  I suppose it could be a great way to counter to rush strategies (even better than as an aid for rush strategies), because you could quickly deny your opponent a lot of Minions or Labs that he might have been counting on.

Still, the fact that it offers no direct benefit to the player makes it highly situational, and perhaps so much so that you'd usually rather buy something else instead.
 
Quote
Double Agent
Action/Reaction
Cost: 4
+1 Card
+1 action
Each other player reveals his hand.
***
Reaction: play in response to another player playing a treasure card. That player discards that card. Then you discard this card.

I'd get rid of the reaction component and cost this at $2.  Knowledge of other players' hands is useful probably less often than you'd think.  Here's a great thread about that.

As for the reaction itself, here's an excerpt from the "Reactions to things other than attacks" section of this fan card creation guide:

Quote
Here's the problem: Do you really want all players to have to wait, every single time they play a Treasure card, to see if anybody is going to play this Reaction to it? Without such a card, players will often lay their Treasure cards down all at once, which keeps the game moving quickly. But with such a Reaction card in play, it's strategically disadvantageous to do this, as then the Reactor will be able to make a more informed decision about which Treasure card he'd like to trash with it.

To date, the existing Reaction cards only react to events that would require that player to do something anyway. When someone plays Militia, there is already a natural pause in the game to wait for the other players to discard down to 3 cards in hand. The natural pause allows for the timely revealing of a Reaction card, like Moat, and not slow the game down any further. Similarly, Watchtower activates when the player holding a Watchtower in hand gains a card -- another moment in the game when the Reactor would be expected to act anyhow.

Quote
Assassin
Action - attack
Cost: 5
Name a player and an action card. That player reveals his hand and, if he has any of the named action card in hand, he trashes one of them, then draws a card.

A few problems here:  (1) The attack is targeted, which is absolutely fine if you want to play the kind of game targeted attacks result in.  But is that what you're shooting for?  Targeted attacks mean one player can be ganged up on, and encourage players to launch their own protests and exhortations about who should be attacked next.  (2) The attack is super strong.  It's good that victory cards are (mostly) excluded, but still, the targeted trashing of other players' cards is brutal and probably unfun.  Even Saboteur, one of the least popular cards in the game, at least allows the player to get something back for it.  Of course this card can miss, because the player might not have one of the named card in hand, but arguably that only compounds the balance of the card by making it so variable.  (3) By specifically targeting attack cards, you're encouraging players to play only Big Money strategies, which is kind of boring.  Contrast with Thief and Pirate Ship:  they trash treasure only, which encourages players to use more interesting strategies to build up their decks.  The other big difference is that treasure is a plentiful resource, whereas specific action cards basically are not.

Quote
Sycophant
Action
Cost: 2
+1 card
+1 action
You may gain a sycophant.

Really cool for a few strategies, particularly Gardens, but essentially useless most of the time.

Quote
Church
Action
Cost: 3
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal the named card, then trash that card.

This one seems pretty good, though probably a bit weak.  I'd price it at $2 or offer an additional benefit on top of this.  But the idea is great:  it allows you to trash a Curse, for example, without waiting on the luck of drawing it with a trasher in hand.

Minor point:  The wording of the card should specify that the other revealed cards are discarded, as is the case with Hunting Party and Golem and Library.

Quote
Grave robber
Action
Cost: 4
Choose one:
+$2; or
Gain any card from the trash and put it on your deck.

Gaining from the trash is almost always useless.  There was a thread in this forum recently about making a trash-gaining card work.  I don't think it was successful, although the ideas there come a lot closer than the usual variations.  The problem is that many boards don't trash anything, and most trashing boards only put, you know, trash in the trash.

Quote
Castle
Action - Permanent*
Cost: 8
So long as you have a greater number of castles in play than another player, that player's attacks do not affect you.

I'd never ever buy this.  Why $8?  I think it's actually fine at $2.  Contrast with Moat.  It offers attack immunity, but you can't rely on it, since you need it to be in hand at the time.  Castle, similarly, also only offers unreliable immunity, albeit with a distinctly different distribution.  Moat also offers a benefit that applies even in the absence of attack cards (the +2 Cards), whereas this card is ONLY useful if there are other attack cards present AND if those attack cards are strong enough that they're worth spending a buy and action (and potentially multiple buys and multiple actions) to block.

That said, it's a neat idea to offer a benefit that only applies under these circumstances.  What about a +$ that you only get if you have more in play than anyone else?

Quote
Investment
Action - Permanent
Cost: 7
At the beginning of each turn that this card is in play: +$1

It's tough to know without playtesting, but this is probably fine as it is.  Lots of times you'd find more economical ways to roughly guarantee +$1 per turn, such as a Peddler in a deck that's already capable of drawing or cycling itself every turn.  But it's correct and appropriate that sometimes there will be a better way to do something.

The particular advantage of Investment is that it continues to provide the same benefit even after you start greening.  In particular, that's why it's superior than Treasury, which is basically the exact same card until you start greening.  I'd be inclined to test this card exactly as you've written it.  It might still turn out to be too weak or too strong, but I think there's an excellent chance it's correctly balanced.  Very nice.
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Jimmy Jimmy

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Re: Expansion - "Underworld"
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2011, 05:39:26 am »
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Thanks for the feedback. I found it very constructive, particularly rinkworks'.

I'll have to have a trawl through this part of the forum before I design another set. It sounds like there's some good reading to do here before I have another go.
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