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[Grujah]

What is the least amount of turns one needs for a win?

[Axxle]

My initial thoughts assuming solo game and no echos:

Turn 0: Meld Writing

• Dogma Writing, drawing Mathematics.  Draw a 2.
• Dogma Math, Returning a 2 and melding Alchemy.  Dogma Alchemy, drawing an Experimentation and Melding it.
• Dogma Experimentation, drawing Astronomy and melding it. Dogma Astronomy, drawing a Canning and Melding it.
• Dogma Canning and Melding it. Dogma Canning, tucking Classification scoring Classification, Astronomy, Experimentation for 15 points
• Dogma Canning, tucking Democracy scoring Democracy, Alchemy for 9 points (total 24 points); Dogma Canning, tucking Machine Tools, scoring Math for 2 points (total 26 points)
• Dogma Machine Tools, scoring a 6 (total 32 points); Achievement 1
• Achievement 2/3
• Achievement 4/5
• Achievement 6

[/list]

[BitTorrent]

As I recalled the fastest base game on isotropic I played should be a 7-turn win I think...

Something like I Clothing 4/5 times to take monument and ~20 points, achieve 1,2,3,4 and Translation to meld all the points to end the game. 

[dondon151]

My initial thoughts assuming solo game and no echos:

Alchemy doesn't have 3 castles. How do you draw a card with Alchemy?

[Axxle]

My initial thoughts assuming solo game and no echos:

Alchemy doesn't have 3 castles. How do you draw a card with Alchemy?

Cheat/misread cards

[timchen]

1. (opponent opens tools and draw a card) open Writing and draw Mathematics and some other #2 (opponent draw a #2 as well)
2. (from now on, opponent just draw ) share math melding feudalism; opponent meld some castle #2 ; you draw a #3. Share again to meld reformation and draw a #4. (opponent meld some other #2.)
3. math again to 5,6
4. math to 7,8
5. math to 9, 10(bioengineering)
6. Win by bioengineering.

[Kirian]

Note: Solo play requires seven achievements on Iso.

[Kirian]

From here:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7644.0

Starting meld: Writing
1: Dogma Writing, draw Math; meld Math
2: Draw any 2; Dogma Math. draw and meld Paper
3: Dogma Paper, splay blue, draw any 4; Dogma Math, draw and meld [5]

Now, let's try:

3: ... draw and meld Astronomy
4: Dogma Astronomy, draw and meld Atomic Theory, draw any 6; Dogma Math, draw and meld Electricity
5: Dogma Electricity, return Atomic Theory and Astronomy, draw any 8 and Empiricism; Meld Empiricism
6: Dogma Empiricism, meld Computers; Dogma Computers, draw, meld, and execute Globalization; draw and score any 6, win by Globalization

[Hideyoshi]

From here:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7644.0

Starting meld: Writing
1: Dogma Writing, draw Math; meld Math
2: Draw any 2; Dogma Math. draw and meld Paper
3: Dogma Paper, splay blue, draw any 4; Dogma Math, draw and meld [5]

Now, let's try:

3: ... draw and meld Astronomy
4: Dogma Astronomy, draw and meld Atomic Theory, draw any 6; Dogma Math, draw and meld Electricity
5: Dogma Electricity, return Atomic Theory and Astronomy, draw any 8 and Empiricism; Meld Empiricism
6: Dogma Empiricism, meld Computers; Dogma Computers, draw, meld, and execute Globalization; draw and score any 6, win by Globalization

For more interesting purpose, in the sixth action:

6. dogma empiricism, meld computers; dogma computers, splay green up, draw and meld and execute software, score globalization, draw and meld database and self service, execute self service, execute software again by self service, score stem cells, draw and meld AI and robotics, execute robotics, score self service by robotics, draw and meld internet.

Now you have only two cards in the pile but you have more than 4 clocks, so you win by drawing age 11~

[BitTorrent]

For more interesting purpose, in the sixth action:

6. dogma empiricism, meld computers; dogma computers, splay green up, draw and meld and execute software, score globalization, draw and meld database and self service, execute self service, execute software again by self service, score stem cells, draw and meld AI and robotics, execute robotics, score self service by robotics, draw and meld internet.

Now you have only two cards in the pile but you have more than 4 clocks, so you win by drawing age 11~

The fastest cut as we talk about long ago should be you Math the 8(since Atomic Theory removed your top become Math again) and got computers. Go computer, splay your green up and got Software. Software score 1 and meld Database + Self-service. Run Software again, meld Bioengineering and Internet, proceed to blow the age 10 pile away. 

[Hideyoshi]

For more interesting purpose, in the sixth action:

6. dogma empiricism, meld computers; dogma computers, splay green up, draw and meld and execute software, score globalization, draw and meld database and self service, execute self service, execute software again by self service, score stem cells, draw and meld AI and robotics, execute robotics, score self service by robotics, draw and meld internet.

Now you have only two cards in the pile but you have more than 4 clocks, so you win by drawing age 11~

The fastest cut as we talk about long ago should be you Math the 8(since Atomic Theory removed your top become Math again) and got computers. Go computer, splay your green up and got Software. Software score 1 and meld Database + Self-service. Run Software again, meld Bioengineering and Internet, proceed to blow the age 10 pile away. 

Anyway, I forgot those kinds of things. That's too long long time ago, and the fact is that the dream never comes true...

[eyhung]

You can also win through this path with COMPUTERS executing SELF-SERVICE, because when you ASTRONOMY, you can draw a green 6, meld it over PAPER; then meld ATOMIC THEORY over math; and then achieve UNIVERSE for having all non-purple stacks age 6 or higher.  Then SELF-SERVICE provides the win since you have the most achievements (and it's appropriate since this is a solo win).  So 11 actions after the initial meld seems to be the lower bound.   

[BitTorrent]

For more interesting purpose, in the sixth action:

6. dogma empiricism, meld computers; dogma computers, splay green up, draw and meld and execute software, score globalization, draw and meld database and self service, execute self service, execute software again by self service, score stem cells, draw and meld AI and robotics, execute robotics, score self service by robotics, draw and meld internet.

Now you have only two cards in the pile but you have more than 4 clocks, so you win by drawing age 11~

The fastest cut as we talk about long ago should be you Math the 8(since Atomic Theory removed your top become Math again) and got computers. Go computer, splay your green up and got Software. Software score 1 and meld Database + Self-service. Run Software again, meld Bioengineering and Internet, proceed to blow the age 10 pile away. 

Anyway, I forgot those kinds of things. That's too long long time ago, and the fact is that the dream never comes true...

I do remember there are quite a lot of time which the first part (math -> paper) happens. There are once or twice that Astro actually followed up and quickly aged to 7....while your opponent is still in age 1.

[Hideyoshi]

For more interesting purpose, in the sixth action:

6. dogma empiricism, meld computers; dogma computers, splay green up, draw and meld and execute software, score globalization, draw and meld database and self service, execute self service, execute software again by self service, score stem cells, draw and meld AI and robotics, execute robotics, score self service by robotics, draw and meld internet.

Now you have only two cards in the pile but you have more than 4 clocks, so you win by drawing age 11~

The fastest cut as we talk about long ago should be you Math the 8(since Atomic Theory removed your top become Math again) and got computers. Go computer, splay your green up and got Software. Software score 1 and meld Database + Self-service. Run Software again, meld Bioengineering and Internet, proceed to blow the age 10 pile away. 

Anyway, I forgot those kinds of things. That's too long long time ago, and the fact is that the dream never comes true...

I do remember there are quite a lot of time which the first part (math -> paper) happens. There are once or twice that Astro actually followed up and quickly aged to 7....while your opponent is still in age 1.

It is not too rare for mathematics -> paper. But it never comes true for the whole path...

Actually, I have not seen for dogma computer and then end games with bursting all 10s yet.

[Tables]

From here:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7644.0

Starting meld: Writing
1: Dogma Writing, draw Math; meld Math
2: Draw any 2; Dogma Math. draw and meld Paper
3: Dogma Paper, splay blue, draw any 4; Dogma Math, draw and meld [5]

Now, let's try:

3: ... draw and meld Astronomy
4: Dogma Astronomy, draw and meld Atomic Theory, draw any 6; Dogma Math, draw and meld Electricity
5: Dogma Electricity, return Atomic Theory and Astronomy, draw any 8 and Empiricism; Meld Empiricism
6: Dogma Empiricism, meld Computers; Dogma Computers, draw, meld, and execute Globalization; draw and score any 6, win by Globalization

For more interesting purpose, in the sixth action:

6. dogma empiricism, meld computers; dogma computers, splay green up, draw and meld and execute software, score globalization, draw and meld database and self service, execute self service, execute software again by self service, score stem cells, draw and meld AI and robotics, execute robotics, score self service by robotics, draw and meld internet.

Now you have only two cards in the pile but you have more than 4 clocks, so you win by drawing age 11~

Executing Computers should just be an instant win no matter what: Computers draws and executes Robotics, which draws and executes Software, drawing and executing Botnet, which destroys you completely and utterly and therefore giving you the win.

[Razzishi]

I was thinking very casually about this and thought about a 2 player game with one player spamming shared Wheel and the other player using Clothing to fill their score pile quickly.  Let's see where we can take this....

Sorry, this doesn't quite work yet, The Wheel player shouldn't go first.  I'm working on fixing it.

0.1: Open Wheel over Sailing
0.2: Open Metalworking over Clothing

1.1: Share Wheel (5+4 9 cards from Age 1 gone), player 2 draws at least City States.
1.2: Meld Clothing, use Clothing to Meld City States, score 2 1s (11 cards from Age 1 gone, 3 left)

2.1: Share Wheel twice, (8 cards from Age 2 gone) player 2 draws at least Construction and Mathematics.
2.2: Use Clothing to meld Construction, score one 2 and two 3s (10 total), use Clothing to meld Mathematics, score four 3s (22) and get Monument. (3 cards in Age 3 left)

3.1: Share Wheel (getting partially into Age 4 by the second time)
3.2: Achieve 1, Activate Construction for Empire.

4.1: Meld Sailing, Share Sailing
4.2: Achieve 2, 3.

5.1: Mope
5.2: Achieve 4.

Many of the cards are random, you can probably figure out which ones are needed and why.

[Tables]

I was thinking very casually about this and thought about a 2 player game with one player spamming shared Wheel and the other player using Clothing to fill their score pile quickly.  Let's see where we can take this....

0.1: Open Wheel over Sailing
0.2: Open Metalworking over Clothing

1.1: Share Wheel (5+4 9 cards from Age 1 gone), player 2 draws at least City States.
1.2: Meld Clothing, use Clothing to Meld City States, score 2 1s (11 cards from Age 1 gone, 3 left)

2.1: Share Wheel twice, (8 cards from Age 2 gone) player 2 draws at least Construction and Mathematics.
2.2: Use Clothing to meld Construction, score one 2 and two 3s (10 total), use Clothing to meld Mathematics, score four 3s (22) and get Monument. (3 cards in Age 3 left)

3.1: Share Wheel (getting partially into Age 4 by the second time)
3.2: Achieve 1, Activate Construction for Empire.

4.1: Meld Sailing, Share Sailing
4.2: Achieve 2, 3.

5.1: Mope
5.2: Achieve 4.

Many of the cards are random, you can probably figure out which ones are needed and why.

Why is the player opening Wheel going before the one opening Metalworking?

[Razzishi]

Yeah, I noticed that too.  I should be able to fix it somehow though, there's some slack at the end to make up for the fact that Sharing Wheel right away requires going second.

[Razzishi]

0.1: Open Clothing over Masonry
0.1: Open Wheel over Sailing

1.1: Use Clothing to meld Masonry, score one 1. (5 Age 1 gone, 9 left)
1.2: Share Wheel twice (1 Age 2 gone, 8 left),
2.1: Use Masonry to meld Oars, Archery, City States, and Tools for Monument, use Clothing to score four 2s, 9 total (4 Age 2 left)
2.2: Share Wheel twice, (6 Age 3 gone, 3 left)
3.1: Use Clothing to score four 3s (23 total), Meld any 2 or 3 that gives us at least 2 crowns and 3 castles.
3.2: Share Wheel (into Age 4), meld Construction
4.1: Achieve 1, 2
4.2: Meld Sailing, Share Sailing, results such that player 2 has <= castles than player 1 and Construction still on top.
5.1: Achieve 3, 4
5.2: Activate Construction to give Player 1 the win.

Best I got so far.

[ksasaki]

I have a thought experiment for echoes:

0: ruler / whatever
1: ruler / draw watermill, meld watermill
2: draw card with bonus / watermill into age 11

here is a theoretical chain:

chaturanga (3) - almanac (4) - clock (5) - stove (6) - morphine (7) - jeans ( 8 ) - air conditioner (9) - wristwatch (10) - artificial heart (11)



If someone EVER achieves this they need to paste their gamelog ASAP!

For those not familiar with echoes, here is watermill's text:

Watermill (3 leaves):

Tuck a card with a bonus from your hand.  If you do, draw a card of value equal to that card's bonus.  If the drawn card also has a bonus, repeat this dogma effect.

[BitTorrent]

I have a thought experiment for echoes:

0: ruler / whatever
1: ruler / draw watermill, meld watermill
2: draw card with bonus / watermill into age 11

here is a theoretical chain:

chaturanga (3) - almanac (4) - clock (5) - stove (6) - morphine (7) - jeans ( 8 ) - air conditioner (9) - wristwatch (10) - artificial heart (11)



If someone EVER achieves this they need to paste their gamelog ASAP!

For those not familiar with echoes, here is watermill's text:

Watermill (3 leaves):

Tuck a card with a bonus from your hand.  If you do, draw a card of value equal to that card's bonus.  If the drawn card also has a bonus, repeat this dogma effect.

To make you rage more, you should tuck pagoda and horseshoes and scissor first so your board only got 2+1+1 points even you tuck all your way to age 11(since the cards tucked are not on the top by that drill) And now you can lose the game because your opponent have already Metalworking-ed 3 times and get 5 points 

I still remember a game with ksa where he jumped from age 7 to age 11 by one watermill...while I just meld all my score by translation.

[ray]

With Echo, I think it is possible to win within a turn.
0: Meld Dice
1: Dogma Dice, draw Soap and meld Watermill; Dogma Watermill, tuck Soap-Crossbow-Almanac-Clock-Lightning Rod-Hot Air Balloon-Ice Cream-Air Conditioner-Wristwatch-Artificial Heart-Game Over

[ksasaki]

nice ray!  i didn't even think of dice!  Echoes can be pretty broken at times, stupid almanac...

[Tables]

If the guy in my group who has Innovation gets Echoes, I'm definitely stacking the decks and doing that.

Edit: Erm, Hot Air Balloon doesn't have a bonus, according to http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7421.msg211661#msg211661. You'd need Morphine. Minor point though.

[WinterSpartan]

Also note that that assumes you go second (two actions on turn 1), so stacking the decks would need to take into account that player one could mess up your vital Soap draw. And he'd need to open with something like Clothing or Agriculture.

[Tables]

With Echo, I think it is possible to win within a turn.
0: Meld Dice
1: Dogma Dice, draw Soap and meld Watermill; Dogma Watermill, tuck Soap-Crossbow-Almanac-Clock-Lightning Rod-Hot Air Balloon-Ice Cream-Air Conditioner-Wristwatch-Artificial Heart-Game Over

Having thought about it, this doesn't work. The second draw from Dice must be a base card, as you have Soap in hand. So you draw and meld a base 2, not an echoes 2.

[GenericKen]

Solo base game (7 achievement win in 8 turns):

0 Clothing over Metalworking. (Green)

1.1 Clothing dogma metalworking (Red), score Code of laws, Pottery.
1.2 Metalworking dogma 8 castle age 1 techs, claim Monument, draw agriculture.
(score 10)

2.1 Clothing dogma agriculture (Yellow), score Sailing, Writing(1), Calendar(2).
2.2 Metalworking dogma 5 castle age 2 techs, draw math.
(score 23)

3.1 Clothing dogma Math (Blue), score canal building, currency, philosophy(2), compass(3).
3.2 Metalworking dogma 4 castle age 3 techs, draw education.
(score 44)

4.1 Clothing dogma education (Purple), score last 4 age 3 cards, Any age 4 card
4.2 Education dogma age 4 card from score, draw any age 5 card.
(score 56)

5.1 Dogma Math age 5 card to meld any age 6 card.
5.2 Claim Achievement 1

6. Achievement 2/3
7. Achievement 4/5
8. Achievement 6...

[GenericKen]

4: Dogma Astronomy, draw and meld Atomic Theory, draw any 6; Dogma Math, draw and meld Electricity

Pretty sure you can't dogma Math while it's underneath Atomic Theory. You can dogma Atomic Theory though.

Starting meld: Writing
1: Dogma Writing, draw Math; meld Math
2: Draw any 2; Dogma Math. draw and meld Paper
3: Dogma Paper, splay blue, draw any 4; Dogma Math, draw and meld Astronomy

4: Dogma Astronomy, draw and meld Atomic Theory, draw any 6 (may also draw and meld any green to claim Universe achivement); Dogma Atomic Theory, draw and meld Electricity
5: Dogma Electricity, return Atomic theory, draw any 8; Dogma math, draw and meld Computers
6: Dogma Computers, draw-meld-dogma-win with any 10 (I believe Bioengineering, Globalization, Self-Service, and Robotics->Software->AI all win in solitaire games).