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Author Topic: Conquest - the 5s  (Read 8582 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Conquest - the 5s
« on: October 04, 2011, 12:13:37 am »
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Probably the real heart of almost any set are the 5 cost cards. Here they are:

Bandwagon
Victory-Reaction   5
2 VP
Whenever a player buys a non-victory card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard this and gain a copy of that card.

This was one of the first cards I designed for the set. Once again, one of the keys is that you can duplicate your own buys. Interesting I think. I'm more worried about it being weak than strong, but I think it's probably good. Sorta like a nonterminal smugglers with 2 vp, but you can also wait to get whatever it is you'll buy.

Quartermaster      
Action         5
+2 cards
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Discard 1 card

Lab with a buy where you have to discard. A buy isn't so great, but needing to discard one of six isn't often so terrible anyway. Maybe not different enough from lab to actually have, but probably it's balanced.

Jump
Action         5
+1 Buy
Discard 1 card
+4 Cards

Compares with Council Room, I think slightly favourably, but not probably fairly close power level. Agian maybe too close overall, but maybe not either.

rinkworks

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 09:50:45 am »
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Bandwagon:  Maybe a bit strong?  Neither Smugglers nor Jester let you cherry-pick what you're allowed to gain, but this can just stay in hand until someone grabs a Grand Market, Goons, Peddler, etc.  And if they don't, you just get a duplicate of whatever you grab for yourself.  On the other hand, maybe it's okay since it's otherwise a dead card in your hand.  Plus, you can only use it to grab one card, not multiples, as is the case with Jester in 3p+.  Jester provides money, too.  I think I'm talking myself into thinking the card is probably balanced after all.

Quartermaster may look similar to Laboratory, but I think it will play very differently.  It will require a better quality deck than Laboratory does.  A Laboratory deck can reach $9 with only a Silver and your starting Coppers.  Quartermaster, however, won't be able to amass a lot of junky cards; you'll need quality to filter down to.  I suspect that will be less effective overall, for the same reason that Tactician is a better card than Warehouse.  Okay, so that analogy only goes so far.  The other thing is that the demand for quality support means you'll have fewer turns available to buy Quartermasters than you would Labs.

This isn't a criticism of Quartermaster -- I'm just thinking through how different it really is from merely "Lab with a buy."  I suspect this will be a very nice engine enabler/supporter, and also one of the most desirable sources of +Buy on any given board (right up there with Market, which is not a weak $5 card when you actually *want* the +Buy).

Jump is a tough one to visualize, for some reason.  But I'd probably always want this over Council Room, I think.  When would I not happily discard my weakest card if it meant my opponents don't get a free Laboratory effect?
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ChaosRed

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 11:35:57 am »
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I love Bandwagon, great name/ability combo, I love cards that have great synergy with their name and ability. It could feature some great art too, I see a bunch of minstrels and jesters on a cart, like the band wagons of old.

It would require play testing, but I think this card is a real winner, a fascinating card. If there are a lot of cards worth 6 or more on the board, I think it becomes a must buy.
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timchen

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 01:02:13 pm »
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I think quartermaster would be a bit weaker than lab, probably similar to the market.
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DG

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 06:14:56 pm »
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You probably need to specify a "card from the supply" for the Bandwagon.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2011, 08:17:47 pm »
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You probably need to specify a "card from the supply" for the Bandwagon.

I don't think so. You can discard your Bandwagon and try to gain the Black Marketed card (I can't think of any other case when this will come up) and fail, no differently than if you try to gain a card whose pile has emptied.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2011, 08:53:15 pm »
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I think Bandwagon needs to cost $6. Here's why. Without the VP, it's very comparable to Smugglers, which costs the same as Silver. It has pros (nonterminal, can get $7+ action/treasure cards, more chances to get what you want), which, in my opinion, probably just outweigh the cons (can't get Duchies or Estates). It would cost either $3 or $4. Now compare it to Silver. I'd say it's definitely better than Silver in the early/mid game. Now add 2 VP onto each and you get Bandwagon and Harem.

Now there's clearly no hard and fast rule with adding VP onto cards. Harem costs $3 without the VP, and Nobles would have to be $5. But especially with the precedence these two cards have set, and unless there is some compelling reason for Bandwagon to be available with a 5/2 opening, I think it should be bumped up to $6.

Having said that, I like it. :)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2011, 02:42:31 pm »
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I think Bandwagon needs to cost $6. Here's why. Without the VP, it's very comparable to Smugglers, which costs the same as Silver. It has pros (nonterminal, can get $7+ action/treasure cards, more chances to get what you want), which, in my opinion, probably just outweigh the cons (can't get Duchies or Estates). It would cost either $3 or $4. Now compare it to Silver. I'd say it's definitely better than Silver in the early/mid game. Now add 2 VP onto each and you get Bandwagon and Harem.

Now there's clearly no hard and fast rule with adding VP onto cards. Harem costs $3 without the VP, and Nobles would have to be $5. But especially with the precedence these two cards have set, and unless there is some compelling reason for Bandwagon to be available with a 5/2 opening, I think it should be bumped up to $6.

Having said that, I like it. :)
If it's too strong, I would much rather drop it to 1 VP than bump it up to 6. The thing is, it costing 5 is a really big deal. Getting this later lets you get less stuff with it, having it less time and having more of your opponent's remaining buys by non-victory. Also, gaining stuff later means you get to use it even later, as you have to wait for the reshuffle, and that slows it down even more. I think it's actually probably okay as is (gaining stuff is not as good as it at first seems, like all the time), but I think it's definitely not going to be too strong at 1 VP. But who knows, I haven't tested it.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 02:44:49 pm »
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Quote
Jump is a tough one to visualize, for some reason.  But I'd probably always want this over Council Room, I think.  When would I not happily discard my weakest card if it meant my opponents don't get a free Laboratory effect?
When you have a militia effect coming, for one. It's also a little hard to chain. And if your opponents' decks are less I-need-lots-of-cards dependant than yours. But overall, yes, it's most usually better.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 02:48:02 pm »
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Investment
Action         5
Gain a gold

A very simple card. I won't say much until there's discussion here.

General
Action         5
Name a card type. Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. For every card of the named type revealed, +1 Card. For every different type revealed (including the named type), +$1. Discard the revealed cards.

Originally this had an action and it was almost certainly too strong. Here it's probably too weak, but it's usually going to be 2 cards and a coin or two coin and a card, which is reasonable if not great for 5. And it's got the potential to be much better in the right deck.

Calvary
Action-Victory      5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
_______________
Worth 1 VP

Another vanilla peddler. Compared to market, you get a vp instead of a buy.

rinkworks

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 03:12:51 pm »
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Investment
Action         5
Gain a gold

A very simple card. I won't say much until there's discussion here.

Tough to call.  I guess the best comparison is Hoard, the differences being that Hoard doesn't require an action but does require the purchase of a victory card (which may [Province] or may not [Estate] be ideal).  I guess Hoard also allows you to gain multiple Golds, since you can buy multiple victory cards.  It's a very loose comparison, actually, but sufficient enough that I suspect $5 is probably fine for this.

But is it interesting enough to want to play with?  Not so sure.

Quote
General
Action         5
Name a card type. Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. For every card of the named type revealed, +1 Card. For every different type revealed (including the named type), +$1. Discard the revealed cards.

Originally this had an action and it was almost certainly too strong. Here it's probably too weak, but it's usually going to be 2 cards and a coin or two coin and a card, which is reasonable if not great for 5. And it's got the potential to be much better in the right deck.

Really, really interesting and innovative idea here.  I think it needs tweaking, but it's definitely an idea worth working to perfect.  So let's think it through a bit.

This card is strengthened with dual-type cards and/or knowledge of the top of your deck.  Usually, however, you won't have either, which means the benefits can't be arranged or relied upon.  That needs to be taken into account.

Now what about the range of possible benefits?  The upside (again, barring dual-typed cards) is a total of 3 cards and coins.  On a terminal action, +cards and +coins are roughly equal, with the +cards often being slightly better.  Paradoxically, though, Smithy costs $4, and I'm basically positive that a terminal +$3 would have to cost $5.  But I think that's because +cards requires support to be stronger than +$, whereas +$ is sufficient on its own to have a good turn.

So let's say that +2 Cards/+$1 and +1 Card/+$2 is somewhere around a $4.5-cost card in terms of power level.

Now, what's the down side?  Pretty weak.  If you guess Treasure and turn up two Estates, you get +$1 and that's it.  Seems to me that will happen quite often, too.  I really don't think you can price the card at $5 when the best possible outcome is barely a $5 effect if at all, while the worst possible outcome is worse than a Copper.

With dual-typed cards, you can get up to +2 Cards, +$2, which is very nice, but still inadequate compensation for the risk of whiffing entirely.

I think you can price this at $4 and be just fine.  Even then, Smithy will probably usually be stronger.

Edit:  Oh, but an Action/Attack card would be worth +$2 on its own, wouldn't it?  So the upside is better than I realized.  Hmmm.

Quote
Calvary
Action-Victory      5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
_______________
Worth 1 VP

Another vanilla peddler. Compared to market, you get a vp instead of a buy.

Seems solid to me.  This is essentially a money-earning Great Hall, which makes it a fun pile to race for.  Although nothing it does is unique, it's still an interesting card in a board that also had Great Halls, Treasuries, and Peddlers.  Depending on the circumstances, there would be reasons to prefer any one of the four.  Good card.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 03:16:31 pm by rinkworks »
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Epoch

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2011, 05:15:19 pm »
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Investment
Action         5
Gain a gold

A very simple card. I won't say much until there's discussion here.

Meh.  I kind of hate it.

I think that the useful comparison is Mint.  Mint is...  not a great $5.  It's useful when you can make good use of its trashing (largely limited to scenarios in which you happen to draw 5x Copper early), or when you can have a very thin deck with lots of Gold or Platinum.

This card is reliably a little more useful than Mint, but not a ton, and its best uses are clearly much worse than Mint's.  It's slow.  It doesn't have any of the interest of Mint.  It's I guess an okay BM enabler, but not a great one because of the $5 cost, and do we really want cards that are BM enablers?  It's a terminal that's not very good even in an engine deck because it dilutes the engine.

I don't think it's terribly balanced, but why is the game improved by having it?
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ChaosRed

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2011, 05:25:34 pm »
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Investment
Action         5
Gain a gold

A very simple card. I won't say much until there's discussion here.

Meh.  I kind of hate it.

I like it. Simple. Relatively fair for its price.

Might be useful for a BM player like me. I can shift acquisition to VP, knowing this card pads it with a gold, to help insulate a big VP draw. Also Gold remodels well so a Remodel / Investment engine might work. I'd experiment with the card anyway, gaining a gold on turns where I have 8$ on the other four cards, is really useful.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 07:35:28 pm »
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Calvary
Action-Victory      5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
_______________
Worth 1 VP

Another vanilla peddler. Compared to market, you get a vp instead of a buy.

Quick question... do you mean Cavalry?
Cavalry = Horsemen.
Calvary = Place where Jesus died.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2011, 11:38:25 pm »
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Yes, I mean cavalry. Yes investment is weak, but it buffs up BM a little bit, as opposed to almost every card out there that weakens it. You know, I want BM to still be viable a lot. General... well, I don't think I can add much to it without it being too powerful. I could pop an action back on, but I'd need to bump it to 6 I think. I could maybe add a buy and have it be ok. But it might just be ok as is.

Elyv

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2011, 02:27:28 pm »
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General feels like it's at best +2 cards/+1 $, which seems more like a 4. Since it's not even always going to be that, I don't think it would be a particularly good 4.

The others seem fine, I think.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 12:21:53 am »
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I could swear I posted this yesterday, but...

Charge
Action         5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$2
Gain a copper

Yeah so this is Grand Market without the buy and with a pretty decent drawback, but costed at 5, I think it's probably still a good bit too strong.

Inspectors
Action-Attack      5
+1 Action
Every player (including you) reveals their hand. You choose one card from each player's hand for them to discard. Then each player draws 2 cards.

Compares to lab, but I'm not sure if it's overall better or worse. Probably not one or the other SO often, so it's balanced. At least that's what I hope.

Commander
Action-Attack      5
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. For each card revealed this way, if it's:
A treasure, +$1
An Action, +1 Action
A victory card, +1 Card
An attack, each opponent gains a copper
A Reaction, +1 Buy
A curse, each opponent gains a curse


This is a bear of a card that I know I'll probably have to scale back. But it was nice in the cares-about-type subtheme I have going to go with every card type there is (yes, yes, duration, but I don't want to reference duration out of seaside. Sorry). Compare it to tribute. Without the fancy attack stuff (the effect on attacks and on curses), it's probably going to be a touch worse than tribute, but on the other hand, you can set up what you get better, you can get buys off of reactions, and it cycles you rather than your opponent. Well, that's still probably a bit weaker than one of the weaker 5s.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 12:29:50 am »
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And to stay on track, here's the last two 5s, which I had planned to post tonight:

Royal Guard
Action-Attack-Reaction   5
+1 Action
+$1
Each opponent discards a card or gains a curse in hand.
________________________________
Whenever an opponent plays an attack, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, +3 cards and you are unaffected by attacks for the rest of the turn.

Much easier to spam than torturer, but then again they don't naturally draw each other, and they only give a copper's worth of money rather than drawing three cards, which is a lot weaker, and they only have to discard one, which is a lot weaker. So even with the spammability, I think this might not actually be so strong. I do like the idea of your guard taking the bullet for you and giving you a benefit though, and that benefit should befit the high cost of having to trash a precious 5-cost. Most likely thing to try to balance it if I need to make it stronger is add a buy - anything else and it's going to be too strong.

Training
Action         5
+1 Card
+1 action
Trash a treasure card. For each $1 it would have produced upon being played, +1 card.

(i.e. copper = 1, silver = 2, etc. How should I word this?)
This compares to upgrade and apprentice. It's a little better than both, except that it can only trash treasures. Originally I had a buy instead of the +1 card, but I think that was too weak. Here it's probably good, but maybe a touch strong? Sort of hard to tell.

biopower

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 01:02:18 am »
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For Inspector, do you have to pick a card out of your own hand to discard? If you do, it's much worse than a lab because you're increasing everyone else's handsize while making yours constant.

For Commander, you probably need to put "reveal and discard" on the card instead of just reveal, because it's ambiguous where the revealed cards go (hand? back on deck? etc.)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2011, 01:03:34 am »
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Have you thought about how Training would treat Bank, Venture, Horn of Plenty etc?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2011, 10:10:32 am »
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Have you thought about how Training would treat Bank, Venture, Horn of Plenty etc?
Horn of Plenty is very easy - it's 0. Venture and Bank should be 1. Potion is 0. Phil Stone is the tough one. I'm still looking for a good way to word this so that everything is clear.

AJD

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2011, 10:23:32 am »
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Presumably for Philosopher's Stone you count your cards and draw a fifth of them, right?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2011, 10:26:27 am »
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I assume that if you play (Village+) Black Market, drop 3 Treasures, and then play Training and trash a Bank, you would draw 4.(?)

rinkworks

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2011, 01:18:08 pm »
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Investment
Action         5
Gain a gold

A very simple card. I won't say much until there's discussion here.

Something I just posted in ChaosRed's thread just made me realize:  Isn't this strictly superior to Explorer at the same price?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 5s
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2011, 01:18:56 pm »
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Investment
Action         5
Gain a gold

A very simple card. I won't say much until there's discussion here.

Something I just posted in ChaosRed's thread just made me realize:  Isn't this strictly superior to Explorer at the same price?
No. You don't gain anything in hand.
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