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Author Topic: Revaluating Writing  (Read 6213 times)

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teasel

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Revaluating Writing
« on: April 05, 2013, 08:33:48 pm »
+1

you know i've been thinking... is writing really that useless? think about it,sure all it does is that it draws you a 2,but 2 is the age with math and fermenting,those 2 card so powerfull whole strategy revolve around them,isn't being able to get them first a huge advantage?
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theory

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 11:00:59 pm »
0

Mathematics is sorely overrated.  I would rather have any of the Seven (Domestication/Clothing/The Wheel/Sailing/Metalworking/Mysticism/Pottery) than Mathematics at that stage.
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Razzishi

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 11:45:03 pm »
0

I'm not a fan of Writing at all.  Let's look at All of Age 2 from the first few turns' perspective.  What do you want to do on the opening turns?  Meld cards and draw cards to give you more options, and compete for Castle dominance to force them to share the good dogmas.  What does this in Age 2?

Calendar - You need to score at least one card first.  Metalworking and Clothing do that well.  If those are your other starting cards, this is at least a useful draw off Writing.
Canal Building -  Useless.
Currency - Useless.
Construction - Demand is useless if you've used Writing to bypass Age 1, as it gives them a 2.  Achieve is not going to happen in the first few turns, especially without something like Domestication.
Fermenting - To be better than Writing, you'd need Pottery or Clothing as your other card.  In those exact situations, this is a good card to draw.
Mapmaking - If your opponent scored big early with Clothing and Metalworking this could be huge, but you'd need to make sure you're up on crowns.  Plus, this is much better when the bonus score is a 3 or higher.
Mathematics - Potentially useful.  A lot can be said about this elsewhere, but this is incredibly risky without anything else on your board.
Monotheism - Ok, maybe nice, 3 Castles, plus a potentially neat demand effect when you have no board.
Philosophy - Useless.
Road Building - Without 2 cards to meld in hand, useless. 

So, why do I want to draw 2s instead of a chance at draw Wheel, Domestication, Mysticism, Sailing, Clothing, or Metalworking?
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Awaclus

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 03:10:58 am »
+1

Writing's not useless, but it often is worse than the other options you have available. I'd meld it over Agriculture, City States, Code of Law, Masonry, Oars and Archery, because with those cards, I would be using my basic draw action anyway so I might as well advance to the second age.
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timchen

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 05:31:52 am »
+1

Mathematics is sorely overrated.  I would rather have any of the Seven (Domestication/Clothing/The Wheel/Sailing/Metalworking/Mysticism/Pottery) than Mathematics at that stage.

This I do not agree. Actually I'd very much like to see some essay on how those two-for-ones are so useful as their direct benefit are not that easy to measure. How does melding random stuff onto your board do you good?

Mathematics is a game changer. It CAN lead to a runaway victory. When my opponent is going math and I am not scoring big, I am always worried about either I cannot get to those card stealing cards quick enough, or he gets very good draws. It's maybe not that strong in average, but the swing can be huge.

Back to writing, I think it is not a bad start if you can find math very quickly. Finding Fermenting is not that useful as you don't have the leaves for it. The big problem is that if you have to draw several cards to get math, you leave some big scoring potential for your opponent and also he is more likely to have his tableau built up a bit.
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Awaclus

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2013, 07:48:53 am »
0

Mathematics is sorely overrated.  I would rather have any of the Seven (Domestication/Clothing/The Wheel/Sailing/Metalworking/Mysticism/Pottery) than Mathematics at that stage.

This I do not agree. Actually I'd very much like to see some essay on how those two-for-ones are so useful as their direct benefit are not that easy to measure. How does melding random stuff onto your board do you good?
Isn't that exactly what Math does?
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teasel

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2013, 08:01:00 am »
+1

math randomly melds BETTER stuff on your board

anyway the advantage of random melding is simple

1. it saves you an action
2. even if you don't want the actual card,you probably want the symbols on the card

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timchen

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2013, 08:42:04 am »
+1

That is only the advantage comparing to a standard action. From this perspective math is almost strictly better, except it cost you a card in hand.

I think in the early game lots of cards melded this way will have symbols that you don't really care about later. Or say if we think about mysticism, it necessarily covers up a card when it works so in average (suppose you are neutral about the card it melds and the card that is covered) it is just draw a card. It doesn't really matter if you draw and meld a card that does you no good at all.

If you let me guess, I would say those two-for-one cards are overvalued at mid level play but may be undervalued at high level.
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theory

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2013, 09:59:09 am »
0

I think in the early game lots of cards melded this way will have symbols that you don't really care about later. Or say if we think about mysticism, it necessarily covers up a card when it works so in average (suppose you are neutral about the card it melds and the card that is covered) it is just draw a card. It doesn't really matter if you draw and meld a card that does you no good at all.

This is crazy.  This is like saying Sailing has no net benefit whatsoever.  The reason Mysticism is so good is because it directly melds new cards onto your board while drawing you new ones.  You don't use it when you have powerful dogmas in hand or on the board, you use it because it's the most efficient way to "explore".

Also I dispute the claim that you don't want these cards later.  Even in Age 1 plenty of cards have lovely symbols, and by Age 2-3 the majority have useful symbols.

Mathematics is sorely overrated.  I would rather have any of the Seven (Domestication/Clothing/The Wheel/Sailing/Metalworking/Mysticism/Pottery) than Mathematics at that stage.

This I do not agree. Actually I'd very much like to see some essay on how those two-for-ones are so useful as their direct benefit are not that easy to measure. How does melding random stuff onto your board do you good?

Mathematics is a game changer. It CAN lead to a runaway victory. When my opponent is going math and I am not scoring big, I am always worried about either I cannot get to those card stealing cards quick enough, or he gets very good draws. It's maybe not that strong in average, but the swing can be huge.

The odds of:

1) Mathematics finding something powerful (not something like Encyclopedia);
2) Mathematics finding something powerful that doesn't give me compensation (e.g. Vaccination catches me right up)
3) Me being unable to find something in the low ages that takes tech (there are just so many ... Construction, Road Building, Machinery, Archery, Sailing etc. etc.) while he is literally not drawing form those piles
4) Me being unable to find something that empties the piles and therefore is equivalent to teching (Fermenting/Pottery/Reformation)
5) Me being unable to score fast (Metalworking/Currency/Pottery/Clothing/etc.) OR he lands one of the few high cards that hurts my score pile (Vaccination is the best option but that catches me right up in tech)
6) Me being unable to share/block his dogmas with superior icon count

make me say that Math is overrated.  It is very powerful, but still overrated.  Like Shakespeare.
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theory

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2013, 10:01:44 am »
0

In my experience the only time teching is really terrifying is when he gets to 8-10 too fast. This is basically possible only if I keep sharing his math or if he printing presses multiple times in a row.
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teasel

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2013, 11:00:07 am »
+1

Quote
The odds of:
3) Me being unable to find something in the low ages that takes tech (there are just so many ... Construction, Road Building, Machinery, Archery, Sailing etc. etc.) while he is literally not drawing form those piles

i don't mind opponent stealing my tech,the point of math is not to have the cards with the highest number,the point of math is to get to 10... why? because that's where bioengineering and other insta-win card are,because that's where all the card that says "score a 10" are,because as soon as i hit 10 i can win the game as soon as my score is higher simply by discarding a card,so sure go ahead and steal my green 6-8 with road building

Quote
4) Me being unable to find something that empties the piles and therefore is equivalent to teching (Fermenting/Pottery/Reformation)

fermenting is the only card that can probably be fast enough to catch up with math,even then it also has many "IF" condition,even when all the if condition are involved there is always a chance for me to blow it up with gunpowder

Quote
5) Me being unable to score fast (Metalworking/Currency/Pottery/Clothing/etc.) OR he lands one of the few high cards that hurts my score pile (Vaccination is the best option but that catches me right up in tech)

it's not like vaccination is the only one,there is rocketry,database,combustion...

Quote
6) Me being unable to share/block his dogmas with superior icon count

a lot of dogma have industry/clock symbols for that specific purpouse,that's actualy another advantage of teching up,getting to clock/industries first is a pretty big effect



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theory

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2013, 12:43:57 pm »
0

You are so completely wrong in every aspect of your post except the last (Industry/Clock dogmas are not shareable/blockable by lower ages, that is true).  You plan to tech all the way to Age 10 with Math?  Age 10 cards are not insta-win by any stretch.  Metalworking empties the piles even faster than Fermenting, and most shared effects will empty fine.  Where are you finding Gunpowder if you're teching to Age 10?  If you really are counting on Databases to save you from a Metalworking spree you are in for a rude awakening.  How many score killers are there?  Vaccination (can be blocked by leaves, teleports me to Age 6 so your tech lead is gone); Combustion (can be blocked by Crowns, takes only 2 cards at a time so weak vs Metalworking); Rocketry (stops your teching up and only returns 1 card at a time at first).  How do you plan to maintain all other symbols?  Are you magically hitting all the splay cards and building depth at the same time you're teching up?  What am I doing in the interim?

I don't even know what to say.  It is astonishing to me that you can get to Level 30+ and still think it's worth melding and executing Writing to go for Mathematics.  It can work against slow opponents who mainly use draw actions, but any kind of early scoring will be on average more consistent than Math.  Math is just too slow and luck-dependent otherwise.

Really it is that you are fixated on the idea that Math "randomly melds BETTER stuff on your board".  This is the core misunderstanding -- in most ages, I would rather have a card that says, "Draw and meld a card of whatever age you are on" rather than Mathematics.  The most powerful card in each age does get much more powerful in each age, but the average power rises much more slowly.
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popsofctown

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2013, 01:12:29 pm »
0

I would really love to get involved with this debate, but since 80% of the games I play are echoes now, I can't.  Bleh :(

Echoes 2's are great off of Writing, but that's because they are echoes 2's.
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timchen

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2013, 03:09:43 pm »
+1

I think in the early game lots of cards melded this way will have symbols that you don't really care about later. Or say if we think about mysticism, it necessarily covers up a card when it works so in average (suppose you are neutral about the card it melds and the card that is covered) it is just draw a card. It doesn't really matter if you draw and meld a card that does you no good at all.

This is crazy.  This is like saying Sailing has no net benefit whatsoever.  The reason Mysticism is so good is because it directly melds new cards onto your board while drawing you new ones.  You don't use it when you have powerful dogmas in hand or on the board, you use it because it's the most efficient way to "explore".

Also I dispute the claim that you don't want these cards later.  Even in Age 1 plenty of cards have lovely symbols, and by Age 2-3 the majority have useful symbols.


No it is not crazy. Also I am not saying there are no good symbols there, but the problem is that lots of times you'll just cover them-- and by the time you can splay it may already be too late, so it does not matter.

Think about Canning for example. If you get and use it early it just blow up your board hard, if you count the number you unmelded. Does it matter? Usually not that much.

The odds of:

1) Mathematics finding something powerful (not something like Encyclopedia);
2) Mathematics finding something powerful that doesn't give me compensation (e.g. Vaccination catches me right up)
3) Me being unable to find something in the low ages that takes tech (there are just so many ... Construction, Road Building, Machinery, Archery, Sailing etc. etc.) while he is literally not drawing form those piles
4) Me being unable to find something that empties the piles and therefore is equivalent to teching (Fermenting/Pottery/Reformation)
5) Me being unable to score fast (Metalworking/Currency/Pottery/Clothing/etc.) OR he lands one of the few high cards that hurts my score pile (Vaccination is the best option but that catches me right up in tech)
6) Me being unable to share/block his dogmas with superior icon count

make me say that Math is overrated.  It is very powerful, but still overrated.  Like Shakespeare.
Your reason is faulty because you need several of them to happen at the same time to really block math.
(1) is not so bad since you have plenty chances to try. And if you get to higher ages it is even easier.
(2) chances are they can choose not to use it.
(3) They can choose not to take cards in their hand. Then you are only limited to road building and compass in lower ages.
(4) This one is the most far-fetched. It's too slow comparing to instant mathing in average to find those cards.
(5) fast scoring is stronger I agree, but that usually happens before one decides to math. And this has nothing to do with math since if he cannot block he loses either way.
(6) again it is unlikely one can share/block every dogma, let alone the clocks and factories.

I am not saying I will write to math. I am saying I think it is not a good idea, but if given that I can draw math as the first card out of writing, then I will.

I am just saying the claim that domestication/sailing/wheel/mysticism are better than math is crazy. Even if say I accept that the effect of those are better and stronger, there are so many of them in the deck that I will not mind my opponent get one of them. There is only one copy of math and this sole fact makes me feel better when I have math in hand comparing to any of those.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 03:12:29 pm by timchen »
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teasel

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2013, 09:29:16 pm »
+1

Quote
You plan to tech all the way to Age 10 with Math?  Age 10 cards are not insta-win by any stretch.

why not? if you didn't meld any leaf all i need to win the game is a single application of bioengineering,if your score is around 30,i win as soon as i use the internet/software/ai 4 times,if it's really bad i might need to use some mass media/combustion/vaccination/databases/rocketry combination

Quote
Metalworking empties the piles even faster than Fermenting

metalworking is as luck dependant as much if not more than math,even assuming everything goes well and dandy it becomes a useless card after age 3 is done,how do you plan to empty pile higher than that? besides what happens if i get metalworking and math together? what's your cunning plan to beat me then?

Quote
Where are you finding Gunpowder if you're teching to Age 10?

there is no rule that says if the situation calls for it,you can't stop at a specific age to find a certain card....

Quote
How do you plan to maintain all other symbols?  Are you magically hitting all the splay cards and building depth at the same time you're teching up?

...and also there is no rule that says i can't use other cards than math to splay my pile,if anything being higher in tech means having better splays option like metric system and flying... why would i have trouble building my board anyway? drawing and feeding a card to math isn't much different than drawing and melding a card normaly...

Quote
If you really are counting on Databases to save you from a Metalworking spree you are in for a rude awakening.  How many score killers are there?  Vaccination (can be blocked by leaves, teleports me to Age 6 so your tech lead is gone); Combustion (can be blocked by Crowns, takes only 2 cards at a time so weak vs Metalworking); Rocketry (stops your teching up and only returns 1 card at a time at first).

this part makes so many stupid assumption,what makes you think by the time i get to one of these cards you have the lead in every single symbol ever? or that i don't want to use vaccination because you get a free 6 (as i said the important thing with math is to get to 10) even if you somehow ends up having the lead in everything,there is no way at all for you to defend against mass media... what do you intend to do against that? if i meld rocketry,there is a chance i've melded lightning or railroad in age 7 therefore being able to return 2 cards without no extra cards... also i'm still in age 8... time to search for quantum theory and get to 10 with that then...

what happens if i scored earlier before getting math and already claimed age 1 or 2,or says you claimed age 1 and 2 and then i catch up with and claim age 3 and 4,what do you intend to do with your big score pile then?

here's the thing...there is a chance i never get any score attacking card,and you never get metalworking or another scoring card,the scenario's are infinite and calling every score-screwing scard powerless against the almighty metal working is just plain stupid

Quote
I don't even know what to say.  It is astonishing to me that you can get to Level 30+ and still think it's worth melding and executing Writing to go for Mathematics.  It can work against slow opponents who mainly use draw actions, but any kind of early scoring will be on average more consistent than Math.  Math is just too slow and luck-dependent otherwise.

math and fermenting are cards that are worthwhile for the whole game and which you can build a whole strategy around them,metalworking and clothing become useless as soon as your opponent has all the colors and all the card with castle's are gone,what would you draw? a card that you use the whole game or one that is only usefull for the first 5 turns?

Quote
Really it is that you are fixated on the idea that Math "randomly melds BETTER stuff on your board".  This is the core misunderstanding -- in most ages, I would rather have a card that says, "Draw and meld a card of whatever age you are on" rather than Mathematics.  The most powerful card in each age does get much more powerful in each age, but the average power rises much more slowly.

and you think of a math player as a clueless idiot who just think bigger is better,if i'm playing math that doesn't mean i can't score,splay or use board building cards,what it means is that i have every deck avaiable to me instead of just the current one,and any deck also include the deck that ends the game,that's seriously the biggest effect in the game i can think of

this is also why i don't mind sharing the tech or having it stolen,sure go ahead,meld that 6 with vaccination,i'm getting to the deck that ends the game in 3 turns anyway,the only stealing card that i fear are societies and enterprise... BECAUSE THEY STEAL MATH

 



« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 09:51:54 pm by teasel »
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teasel

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2013, 12:34:50 pm »
+1

anyway i don't want to turn this into an internet argument were people bicker with each other so i'm sorry if i came off as offensive or angry,i'm pretty sure we can make tons of argument,example,counter example etc... but as far as i'm concerned math is better than any card in age 1,in fact it so much better that writing might actualy better than what i would have tought which was the whole point of the thread anyway
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 12:40:17 pm by teasel »
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BitTorrent

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2013, 11:44:00 pm »
0

To solely reply to the topic itself, Writing is not that useful as expected.

Ignoring what they said about Mathematics, assume mathematics is the only card you are hoping to get, the chance of drawing Mathematics with your very first trial is 10%, which makes the expected actions required to draw math(if it exists) become 4.5 writing action. (Don't bother about the case if it doesn't exists...) 5 Actions means that your opponent can use The Wheel the wipe out 10 age 1 cards, to use clothing to score 10 age 1 cards, or even more weird, using Metalworking to wipe out every card in age 1 if he/she holds another non-castle card as their hand.

And actually most expert players won't writing twice on their first turn since they are well aware of Archery, as archery is not usually used as a starting hand and may be hidden in your opponent's hand. If you writing twice and get things like Construction + Calender and your opponent pulls out Archery then you could be in huge trouble. This is what I say in another article of mine which 'The usage of age 1 cards could be altered a lot from its original dogma since it is the start of the game'.
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BennyD

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2013, 06:22:02 pm »
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I'll admit that for awhile I overvalued Writing, but it's definitely not as bad as it's made out to be. Fermenting combos with so many cards, and Mathematics is (for its age) the best card in the game. Jumping the gun on obtaining those cards is definitely much better than all but the top Age 1 plays.
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timchen

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2013, 08:48:09 pm »
0

No I would say it is really as bad as described (at least in the base game.) Honestly I cannot find a opening pair which I find it convincing to open Writing instead of the other card. The closest I can get is Pottery/Writing...
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theory

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 08:52:16 pm »
+1

Writing/[anything that starts with a C and isn't green] ;-)
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timchen

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Re: Revaluating Writing
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2013, 09:20:59 pm »
0

I'll open open both C's so that I can draw the 1's also in the off chance that my opponent starts sailing.
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