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Jimmmmm

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A few ideas
« on: October 03, 2011, 07:22:14 am »
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Just some ideas that I'd like some thoughts on. I haven't (and probably won't) playtest any of these, but feel free to, or use any altered versions.

There is no particular theme, this is not an expansion or set, just some ideas for cards. Even if these are totally broken or unbalanced, I think there are some new ideas here than can possibly be adapted for more balanced cards.


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Auction

+ 2 Cards
Reveal a card from your hand and place it face up on the table.
Each player (including you) sets aside up to 5 cards face down on the table. Each player reveals their set aside cards. The players with the highest value in Treasure cards gain a copy of your revealed card. If you don't gain a copy, +$ equal to the highest value. All players return their set aside cards to their hands.

Action - $5
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I know this card is a bit wordy, but I think the idea isn't too complicated. Is the wording clear enough? Ie the value of Gold is $3 (not $6), Venture is $1, action cards don't contribute (although can be set aside).
I'm not 100% sure on the  cost, but I'd say probably $4 or $5 (I realise there's a big difference). I'm not sure if the possibility of gifting an opponent a good card is too big a drawback, but if you have enough treasure in your hand, you can guarantee either another copy of your card, or an obscene amount of cash.  Possibly this should exclude the possibility of auctioning Victory cards?
I'm hoping that this would result in interesting decisions, both for the player of the card and the opponents, but only playtesting would tell if it would be best for players to always bid everything they can, or never bid. I'd be hoping for somewhere in the middle. My other problem with this is that it rewards Big Money strategies.
Anyway, the idea is there, any thoughts for (better?) variations?

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Storage

Choose one:
Buy a card for half its cost, rounded up, and place it on your Storage mat;
or if there is at least one card on your Storage mat, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, pick up a card from your Storage mat and put it in your hand.

Cards from your Storage mat are not added to your deck at the end of the game.

Action - $4
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I quite like this card. Another way (like Black Market) to play Treasures in your action phase. I think you could build a whole strategy around this. You can buy Provinces for $4, but of course it takes two plays of the card to put them into your deck, and you don't want to be caught out with green cards in Storage at the end of the game. Could this be too powerful though? I'm not sure. Maybe it should be a $5? It would be interesting to see how well this competes with traditional buying.
It has a slight Watchtower-like interaction with Goons. It could sometimes be a good idea to put Curses into storage to prevent them from being put in your deck, or to save them for an Ambassador. Maybe store some treasure away in case you're ever a tad short.
Also, would it be more interesting to swap a card in your hand with a card in Storage, rather than trashing the card?


Since self-cursing seems to be all the rage:

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Cursed City

+ 2 Cards
+ 2 Actions
+ 1 Buy
+ $1

Whenever this card is played or revealed, gain a Curse. If you don't, trash this card.

Action - $5
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I'm not sure if this is balanced or not. Obviously it combos nicely with Watchtower. Any strategy dependent on this would of course have an expiration date, and then you will usually have the Curses to deal with.

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Grim Reaper

Trash a card from your hand. +$ equal to its cost in coins.

When you trash a card, you may reveal this card from your hand. Put the trashed card on top of your deck or in your discard pile, or return it to the supply.

Action - Reaction - $6
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So I thought of the reaction part of this card specifically to combo with Cursed City as kind of a reverse-Watchtower to keep the Curses in the game. I think the action part needs to involve trashing, or the reaction is useless without other trash for benefit cards. Of course, the reaction part of Moat is useless without attacks, so I'm not sure.
Possibly as is this combos too well with itself. Maybe + half the cost in coins would be better. Or maybe a self-swindle: trash a card and gain one of the same cost.
I have a feeling, though, that either way this card is ultimately broken. It's crazy good with just about any TFB card, I'm thinking especially Apprentice and maybe Bishop. You essentially get the Possession effect of being able to trash whatever you like without worrying about losing it. Another idea for the reaction:

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When you trash a card, you may reveal this card from your hand. Set it aside. At the end of this turn, from cards set aside this way, put up to one on top your deck, put up to one in your discard pile, return up to one to the supply and trash the rest.
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Again, a bit wordy. I like the idea, though, of the Grim Reaper choosing who lives and who dies.

Another big problem this card has, I think, is that it makes Saboteur and Swindler virtually unplayable. Swindle a Province into another Province... but they get to keep the first Province.

Another (probably unworkable) idea I had for the action was as an attack to trash the top card of each opponent's deck. I know this is frowned upon, but of course it defends against itself brilliantly. Would that make it a must buy whenever it's present? Maybe. Would it make for unfun games? Maybe. So as I said, probably unworkable.

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Collaboration

+ 1 Action
+ 1 Card for each Collaboration in play, including this one.

Action - $5
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Quite a nice card, I think.
I'm not sure how good this card would end up being. I imagine sometimes it would be ridiculously good, but sometimes you'd prefer a Lab. Any less than 4 in your deck makes them worse than Labs. Should that make it $4? I don't think so, since once they get going they can probably draw a medium-sized deck quite easily. Could be interesting in multiplayer, as they probably won't benefit you much but you want to buy them to prevent others from getting too many.
I'm not sure if it should be "each Collaboration in play" or "each Collaboration played". The difference, I think, is essentially only in when played with TR/KC.
Another idea would be to add the clause: "You may trash this card immediately. If you do, +2 Cards." This option is probably slightly more interesting worded as in than with the oh-so-powerful-when-King's-Courted "played".
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rinkworks

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Re: A few ideas
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2011, 10:16:16 am »
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Just some ideas that I'd like some thoughts on.

Nice!  My comments:

Quote
Auction

This one is just too hard for me to figure out how it would work.  But I would suggest simplifying it by having players set aside fewer cards and then use the costs of the cards rather than their value in treasure -- the reason being that the latter requires too many special-case rules to figure out, such as Venture only being worth $1.  Bank and Philosopher's Stone?  Quarry?  You can limit it to non-victory cards to close a possible loophole there, but this way you get to allow action cards, which gets rid of how the card rewards Big Money.  Reduce the +$ bonus to half the costs of the set-aside cards (or, alternately, +$ the cost of the auctioned card, which might be better) should rebalance that piece.

But even with these suggested changes, I really can't envision how it would play, and I worry that it might significantly slow the game down.

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Storage

Probably my favorite idea in this batch.  I like your original version better than the variations you propose in your comments.  Is the trashing piece really necessary, though?  I'm not sure that it adds anything and might even make the card a touch strong.  Without it, the idea is clearer to me:  buy a card at a discount but wait a shuffle before you get it.  It's interesting gameplay in both the early game and late game.  Early, you tend to need those good cards in your deck as fast as you can get them there, but this allows you to get more or better cards if you wait a little longer before getting to use them.  In the late game, sure, you can buy a Province, but at the risk you won't get it into your deck before the end of the game.  (Interestingly, buying the last Province this way would end the game but without you getting the points for it.)

There's also a risk that when this card comes up again, it'll clash with another important card in your deck or, worse, will be drawn dead.  So it's a risky proposition but might sometimes be a really good idea.  I also like having another card that allows the playing of treasure during the action phase.  That has such great combo possibilities that it's really too bad only Black Market can pull them off.  I wouldn't want very many such cards, but another one or two seem like a really good idea.

I might drop the price down to $3, too.

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Cursed City

Probably a good card, but I've never tested "gain a Curse; if you do..." variants.

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Grim Reaper

If this seems strong, you could limit it to trashing non-victory cards, which will keep players from being able to trash Provinces and Colonies without losing them.  Other expensive cards (Platinum, King's Court) aren't a problem, because, while you can trash them for the $ while still keeping them, they do leave your hand, so you can't also play them during that turn.  Unless you're able to finagle a way to draw them back into your hand, which I guess is easy if Apprentice is the trasher -- so maybe only allowing the trashed card to be put in your discard pile, rather than on top of your deck, is the way to go here.

Not a fan of the more complicated alternate wording:  in fact, I might even want to simplify further and ONLY let the trashed card be discarded.  The card is simpler that way while still retaining its gameplay value.

Quote
Collaboration

Cool idea, but I wonder if it would play differently enough from Laboratory to be worthwhile in practice.  The thing about Laboratory chains is the more you play, the more likely you're going to be able to play them all.  Collaboration is essentially exactly this way, except that the difficulty of starting the chain is exaggerated.  Once you play that fourth Collaboration, you're indeed drawing more cards than the same number of Labs, but playing four of either card is almost certainly enough to draw all you need.  The one situation where there would be a substantial difference is in a fat, cloggy deck, where lots of extra +cards could be a real help.  But in those decks, you're not likely to connect your Collaborations in the first place.

I also see this card playing dramatically differently in 2p vs. 3p or 4p.  With 2p, it would be very difficult to prevent your opponent from getting 4+ copies.   In 3p or 4p, you can probably make sure no one gains a critical mass of them.  This is also true of Laboratory, but Laboratory is plenty useful in singles and doubles.  But it takes two Collaborations to equal the power of a single Laboratory.  So if players succeed in locking each other out of a critical mass, they've essentially burned a few turns on something that isn't that helpful to them.  And if one player manages to get a critical mass anyhow, it's probably game over.

More interesting might be going the other way.  The wording won't be as elegant, but a card that offers +3 Cards, +1 Action when only one is in play, and one fewer card for each additional copy in play, might be a pretty interesting card.  Or maybe still too powerful, I dunno.
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Deadlock39

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Re: A few ideas
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 12:22:40 pm »
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I don't think I would reduce Storage to $3.  Perhaps terminal collision is enough of a downside, but I think opening Storage/Storage could be too good.  I don't know what the odds are, but you could end up with a Gold in hand on turn 4.  I guess it would just need to be play tested.

rinkworks

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Re: A few ideas
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 12:40:49 pm »
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Oh, I missed how the card gets put in hand after coming off the mat.  Yeah, in that case $4 is a better cost.

By the way, I suppose Potion-cost cards retain their Potion requirement?  Half the cost of Apothecary would be $1 plus half a Potion.  Rounded up, I guess that's $1 and a full Potion.
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ChaosRed

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Re: A few ideas
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 12:44:11 pm »
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I didn't care for Auction, but that's just personal taste I think. Cursed City I don't like for the reasons outlined in rink's guide. Collaboration I love, I think its a great idea, well done.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: A few ideas
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2011, 06:39:02 pm »
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Thanks for the feedback!

Quote
Auction

This one is just too hard for me to figure out how it would work.  But I would suggest simplifying it by having players set aside fewer cards and then use the costs of the cards rather than their value in treasure -- the reason being that the latter requires too many special-case rules to figure out, such as Venture only being worth $1.  Bank and Philosopher's Stone?  Quarry?  You can limit it to non-victory cards to close a possible loophole there, but this way you get to allow action cards, which gets rid of how the card rewards Big Money.  Reduce the +$ bonus to half the costs of the set-aside cards (or, alternately, +$ the cost of the auctioned card, which might be better) should rebalance that piece.

But even with these suggested changes, I really can't envision how it would play, and I worry that it might significantly slow the game down.

I'm not sure that it would slow the game down too much, and I still like the idea of it, but I think it will always be a bit much to really work. I would want the amount of coins you get to be dependent on other players' bids, as this adds a decision for the other players, and otherwise they will always bid everything if they want the card. Maybe one way to define the value of Treasures is the amount of coins they provide if they're the only card in your deck. I think it's fine that Ventures, Banks etc which are normally orders of magnitude better than Coppers would be equal for this purpose.

So yeah, I still like the idea, but I'm not sure that it will work.

Quote
Storage

Probably my favorite idea in this batch.  I like your original version better than the variations you propose in your comments.  Is the trashing piece really necessary, though?  I'm not sure that it adds anything and might even make the card a touch strong.  Without it, the idea is clearer to me:  buy a card at a discount but wait a shuffle before you get it.  It's interesting gameplay in both the early game and late game.  Early, you tend to need those good cards in your deck as fast as you can get them there, but this allows you to get more or better cards if you wait a little longer before getting to use them.  In the late game, sure, you can buy a Province, but at the risk you won't get it into your deck before the end of the game.  (Interestingly, buying the last Province this way would end the game but without you getting the points for it.)

There's also a risk that when this card comes up again, it'll clash with another important card in your deck or, worse, will be drawn dead.  So it's a risky proposition but might sometimes be a really good idea.  I also like having another card that allows the playing of treasure during the action phase.  That has such great combo possibilities that it's really too bad only Black Market can pull them off.  I wouldn't want very many such cards, but another one or two seem like a really good idea.

I suppose one way to look at this card is as a Remodel type, with the advantage of being able to trash whatever you want to get the card you're after, but the disadvantage of having to spend time/Actions/$ to set it up. Clearly as it is, significantly worse if there's strong trashing available - you might cringe a bit at trashing a Silver or Gold if a Copper would have done the job. If it's the only trasher, well it's really slow.

Whether or not the trashing is necessary or makes it a better or worse card, I'm not sure. I suspect often when you're pulling Provinces out of Storage you'd rather keep the cards in your hand for your current turn.

Quote
Grim Reaper

If this seems strong, you could limit it to trashing non-victory cards, which will keep players from being able to trash Provinces and Colonies without losing them.  Other expensive cards (Platinum, King's Court) aren't a problem, because, while you can trash them for the $ while still keeping them, they do leave your hand, so you can't also play them during that turn.  Unless you're able to finagle a way to draw them back into your hand, which I guess is easy if Apprentice is the trasher -- so maybe only allowing the trashed card to be put in your discard pile, rather than on top of your deck, is the way to go here.

Not a fan of the more complicated alternate wording:  in fact, I might even want to simplify further and ONLY let the trashed card be discarded.  The card is simpler that way while still retaining its gameplay value.

Yeah I guess allowing top-decking is unnecessary. Apprentice + Platinum + Grim Reaper would essentially give you +1 Action +8 Cards with the Platinum still in your hand. Although I like Ambassador's "return to the supply" and would like to see one or two more cards that do this.

Quote
Collaboration

Cool idea, but I wonder if it would play differently enough from Laboratory to be worthwhile in practice.  The thing about Laboratory chains is the more you play, the more likely you're going to be able to play them all.  Collaboration is essentially exactly this way, except that the difficulty of starting the chain is exaggerated.  Once you play that fourth Collaboration, you're indeed drawing more cards than the same number of Labs, but playing four of either card is almost certainly enough to draw all you need.  The one situation where there would be a substantial difference is in a fat, cloggy deck, where lots of extra +cards could be a real help.  But in those decks, you're not likely to connect your Collaborations in the first place.

I also see this card playing dramatically differently in 2p vs. 3p or 4p.  With 2p, it would be very difficult to prevent your opponent from getting 4+ copies.   In 3p or 4p, you can probably make sure no one gains a critical mass of them.  This is also true of Laboratory, but Laboratory is plenty useful in singles and doubles.  But it takes two Collaborations to equal the power of a single Laboratory.  So if players succeed in locking each other out of a critical mass, they've essentially burned a few turns on something that isn't that helpful to them.  And if one player manages to get a critical mass anyhow, it's probably game over.

More interesting might be going the other way.  The wording won't be as elegant, but a card that offers +3 Cards, +1 Action when only one is in play, and one fewer card for each additional copy in play, might be a pretty interesting card.  Or maybe still too powerful, I dunno.

Yeah obviously the main difference between the two cards is that Collaborations are harder to get going but better once they're really going.

Your "other way" suggestion I think is interesting. What about something like:
+ 1 Action
+ 3 Cards
Discard 1 card per [card name] in play, including this one.

The first one would be excellent, the second probably still very good, the third is a Warehouse, and you probably never want to play a fourth.
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