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Author Topic: Civility Pledge  (Read 52493 times)

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KingZog3

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #100 on: September 28, 2014, 10:28:37 am »

I read the last couple pages of that thread, but like, it really didn't seem to be that bad.
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pacovf

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #101 on: September 28, 2014, 10:47:41 am »

I haven't been following the mafia scene in here for long, but that dispute between Yuma and Andrew, and the resolution of it, wasn't so much the reason he left, as a detonator of sorts. Yuma had been complaining in the speccys about a shift in the mentality of the f.ds community regarding the level of involvement expected of players, and he had tried to get away for a while before, trying to find an approach that better suited him. I do think it would be healthy for the community to at least discuss what exactly happened, and see if this could have been avoided.
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Teproc

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #102 on: September 28, 2014, 11:39:57 am »

What you're saying is true pac, yuma obviously had been frustrated with that for some time, but I honestly don't think the community has changed in that regard, at least not since I've become part of it (on yuma's invitation I should note, almost a year ago).
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pacovf

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #103 on: September 28, 2014, 12:06:10 pm »

I can't talk about the evolution of the community, because I only started looking at this board around the time of NMV, and I think Yuma had "outed" before then. So I can very well be talking nonsense on the subject, and if so, I apologize.

However, I don't think there's so many people involved in this board that the definitive departure of one of its oldest members can be swept under the carpet. In particular, pretending that Yuma deleted his account because of that single fight in the Dune Mafia thread is disingenous, especially when other people have expressed similar concerns (I am thinking about Twistedarcher, but he may not be the only one). That is not to say that it was anyone's fault, nor, as Yuma said, that the community has become toxic, but I think we owe him to at least understand what it was that led him to be so disenchanted with it that he deleted his account.
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KingZog3

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #104 on: September 28, 2014, 12:21:36 pm »

I've only been in one mafia game, and I'm playing a Diplomacy game, but for both I didn't find it too pressuring to be active. Sure people point it out, but I didn't take it to heart. There's even people in the Diplomacy game who never even posted in the QT's, and no one complained. If the game you're playing requires you to be active, then be active, you signed up for it. If you aren't people should be allowed to point it out, but we signed this pledge here to make sure this doesn't happen, to make sure we don't take things personally. I'm not angry that people in Diplomacy aren't posting in QT's, I'm not angry when I stopped being super active in my mafia game and it was pointed out.

Personally I don't really like mafia to begin with as it's a game of accusations and naturally people will always take things the wrong way. I guess my point is that you shouldn't take anything in the game to heart. I don't think anyone here is really being rude on a personal level, and if they are that's an entirely different story.
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Teproc

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #105 on: September 28, 2014, 03:43:56 pm »

yuma's problem wasn't people being pressured to be active, it was more of an issue (if I understand it correctly) of a medium level of activity not being accepted in mafia games in particular : we tolerate lurkers like mail-mi or chairs, but think people who are moderately active are scum.

This is not true, or at least I don't think it is, but that's what he was saying in the James Bond speccy a few weeks ago.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #106 on: September 28, 2014, 03:46:44 pm »

Well it is somewhat true.  There were games where players have been dismissed (for the day  at least) because "Scum doesn't lurk THAT much"
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Teproc

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #107 on: September 28, 2014, 03:48:45 pm »

Well it is somewhat true.  There were games where players have been dismissed (for the day  at least) because "Scum doesn't lurk THAT much"

I don't know about that. The Egork lynch in Stack the Deck was in large part a lurker lynch for example.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #108 on: September 28, 2014, 04:33:37 pm »

Well it is somewhat true.  There were games where players have been dismissed (for the day  at least) because "Scum doesn't lurk THAT much"

I don't know about that. The Egork lynch in Stack the Deck was in large part a lurker lynch for example.

The game it was in may still be ongoing.. I'm not sure.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2014, 04:38:46 pm »

No that ended ages ago. You were scum with yuma and ichi remember?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2014, 04:39:09 pm »

No that ended ages ago. You were scum with yuma and ichi remember?

No, a different one.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2014, 04:40:18 pm »

There definitely haven't been any other Stack the Deck games recently (I might have to change that soon)
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KingZog3

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #112 on: September 28, 2014, 05:17:40 pm »

yuma's problem wasn't people being pressured to be active, it was more of an issue (if I understand it correctly) of a medium level of activity not being accepted in mafia games in particular : we tolerate lurkers like mail-mi or chairs, but think people who are moderately active are scum.

This is not true, or at least I don't think it is, but that's what he was saying in the James Bond speccy a few weeks ago.

And he deleted his account because of that? I really just don't understand. He's medium active, people see that as being scummy. Of it's meaningless most of the time, but it's mafia. You're playing a game where literally everything you say and do is analysed to the point where it's almost meaningless. Like I said, I've only been in one game but it was enough to see there is so much that people say just to get reactions that you can't take it to heart. You have to understand that they are doing it because it's part of the game, not because they really think it's bad to be medium active or whatever.
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Teproc

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #113 on: September 28, 2014, 05:38:24 pm »

He didn't delete his account because of that, but it was probably a factor since he was complaining about that earlier.

Honestly I think it's more that yuma didn't have the availability to play mafia in the way he used to and that made the game not fun fo him.
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Teproc

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #114 on: September 28, 2014, 05:39:07 pm »

There definitely haven't been any other Stack the Deck games recently (I might have to change that soon)

WW is talking about a "he's lurking too much to be scum" comment I believe, which would be in another game than Stack the Deck.
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Robz888

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #115 on: September 28, 2014, 05:59:25 pm »

Truthfully, in the Dune game it looked to me like yuma was annoyed that he was being suspected *for the wrong reason.* He may also be dissatisfied with the general lower commitment level of the games these days.

I'm obviously not happy that he bowed out like that, he's a great person and a great player. But... I'm still very happy about the community we have here, the games we have going, the things on the horizon, etc. So I'm not going to be too bummed about it. We've had people depart, come back, and depart again, and while each time it's sad, this is still a wonderful gaming community that I am extremely happy to be a part of. I've only played Dominion once in the last 5 months, but I visit the Dominion Strategy Forum every single day, and you guys are the reason.

The prospect of getting married later this week is making me such a sap...
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pacovf

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2014, 06:07:18 pm »

I *think* he was bothered by the fact that he got attacked because he didn't contribute enough, while he felt he was already spending enough time on it. I *think* he felt those were attacks on his commitment level, and he was under impression that they were deemed inadequate.
So it wasn't so much about the game anymore, but about feeling like he doesn't belong here if he "doesn't put in effort", which he considered he was already doing. Which was made worse by the fact that some people hardly post anything at all, and somehow they get a free pass.

But well, I only know the most recent events, and I am not Yuma anyway, so I can't know.

PPE: I don't think Yuma departing is a problem per se, that's bound to happen for all of us, sooner or later. It's the way he has done it that may be problematic.
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Voltaire

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2014, 10:48:18 pm »

I'm obviously not happy that he bowed out like that, he's a great person and a great player. But... I'm still very happy about the community we have here, the games we have going, the things on the horizon, etc. So I'm not going to be too bummed about it. We've had people depart, come back, and depart again, and while each time it's sad, this is still a wonderful gaming community that I am extremely happy to be a part of.

I hereby pledge that this is true and you are all awesome.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #118 on: September 29, 2014, 09:57:54 am »

Truthfully, in the Dune game it looked to me like yuma was annoyed that he was being suspected *for the wrong reason.* He may also be dissatisfied with the general lower commitment level of the games these days.

I'm obviously not happy that he bowed out like that, he's a great person and a great player. But... I'm still very happy about the community we have here, the games we have going, the things on the horizon, etc. So I'm not going to be too bummed about it. We've had people depart, come back, and depart again, and while each time it's sad, this is still a wonderful gaming community that I am extremely happy to be a part of. I've only played Dominion once in the last 5 months, but I visit the Dominion Strategy Forum every single day, and you guys are the reason.

The prospect of getting married later this week is making me such a sap...

F.DS: Come for the Dominion, stay for the Forum Games.
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EFHW

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2014, 12:18:54 am »

In the game, yuma said he was quitting b/c he keeps losing his temper.  The argument with Andrew didn't need to get so heated.  He just got really pissed, over run-of-the-mill things that happen in mafia games.
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shraeye

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2014, 07:14:42 am »

That is not to say that it was anyone's fault, nor, as Yuma said, that the community has become toxic, but I think we owe him to at least understand what it was that led him to be so disenchanted with it that he deleted his account.
I would like to better understand what happened.  I've seen arguments turn toxic, i've seen whole games turn toxic.  Yuma is not the first person who's left.  If SFS still reads these things, I miss you. We need to be much much more cognizant of our intentions and their possible effects.  Never intend to say something mean; be apologetic instead of dismissive if something is taken as mean when it wasn't intended as such.

Quote
a shift in the mentality of the f.ds community regarding the level of involvement expected of players
This has been a problem as well.  Real life exists and is important; please allow your fellow players to experience life AND games simultaneously.
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Teproc

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2014, 07:47:35 am »

Quote
a shift in the mentality of the f.ds community regarding the level of involvement expected of players
This has been a problem as well.  Real life exists and is important; please allow your fellow players to experience life AND games simultaneously.

I don't know, I don't feel this has been a problem at all. It sems to me we're more accepting of lurking that we used to be actually.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #122 on: October 01, 2014, 09:30:26 am »

Quote
a shift in the mentality of the f.ds community regarding the level of involvement expected of players
This has been a problem as well.  Real life exists and is important; please allow your fellow players to experience life AND games simultaneously.

I don't know, I don't feel this has been a problem at all. It sems to me we're more accepting of lurking that we used to be actually.

Maybe but it's part of the game. I've lurked and I've been active. I've lost because of other people lurking and I've won from it too. Lurking can be a strategy in itself so I don't see the point of pressuring people to change that.
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jotheonah

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2014, 02:20:34 pm »

Tilt is real in all games. Tilt in social deduction games is worse, because they can get so personal. Tilt in PBF social deduction games is even worse than that because, without body language and inflection cues, it's almost impossible to tell real tilt from fake tilt.

I'm sad to lose yuma, and I'm more than a little annoyed that he left while a game he was moderating was still active -- to me, that's a pretty rude and immature thing to do, to not honor a commitment.

But mostly I agree with Robz. Mafia requires a thick skin and the skill to compartmentalize your emotions. Not everyone can do that, and everyone can burn out on it with time. I think what we do here is pretty extraordinary, and I think the occasional outburst or bow out is just going to happen naturally.

The things we have control over are our civility and how we treat each other inside and outside the game. Getting upset about how much people suspect/don't suspect lurkers is really not changeable or enforcable -- it's the metagame, it will shift naturally in one direction or the other and the only way to change it is by taking a stand within the game.
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EFHW

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Re: Civility Pledge
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2014, 11:59:43 pm »

well said!
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