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popsofctown

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Base "popped": fan expansion
« on: April 02, 2013, 03:17:08 pm »
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I like echoes plenty, but I like seeing what can be done without adding new rules too.  For my own amusement and to invite the fierce criticism of my peers, I'm making up my own fan expansion for brownbacked cards.

I am not 100% on how they should get included.  I like the idea of dominionesque recombination of the cards, but lousy color streaks would be a pain, unless the cards are recombined by hand, which is tedious.
What I'm leaning towards the most is having a stack of 19 cards per age, and having the age be considered empty if 9 cards remain in it.  That means returned cards are largely gone for good, so effects like Pottery can sift through poor color streaks without getting to the bottom of the stack and getting stuck with the same raw deal.
Theoretically, I'm trying to have the cards do a little bit of everything, just like the base set, so you could just play with the different set of brown backed cards all on its own.  So there's always that.

I only have age 1 untested cards so far.  Here are my beauties.
_______________________________________________________________________

AGE 1


Green

Lookout Post
[X]
[C][T][T]

T: I demand you reveal the highest card from your hand!
T: Reveal the lowest card from your hand.  Draw a card of that value.

Ramp
[T]
[T][X][T]

T: Meld two cards from your hand.

Crop Rotation
[X]
[B][L][L]

L: If your score isn't zero, draw two cards of value equal to the number of different values in your score pile.


Yellow


Ingenuity
[B]
[X][T][B]

B: Return a card with a B from your board.  Draw and meld a card of value 1 higher than the card you returned.

Storytelling
[C]
[L][X][L]

L: Tuck a card from your hand.  Draw and score a card of value equal to the card above it.

Territorialism
X
[C][T][T]

T: I demand you meld the lowest card from you score pile!
T: Score the lowest card in your hand.


Red

Messengers
X
[T][C][T]

T: Draw and reveal two 1's.  The player to your left chooses one.  Keep that one, score the other.

Staff
[C]
[C]X[T]

C: Choose one of the six icons.  You may not choose the same icon twice this dogma action. 
Draw and reveal a [1].  If it has the chosen icon, then return it, you may splay your cards of its color left, and you may repeat this dogma effect.
C: If you chose all six icons, you win the game.

Fire
X
[T][T][T]

T: I demand you return a card from your hand!


Purple


Swimming
[X]
[L][T][T]

T: Transfer a top card from your board to the board of a player with no top card of its color.  You may repeat this dogma effect.
T: I demand you transfer a top card of a color present on my board to my board if you received a card! Then I may splay that color left.


Latrine
[L]
[X][L][T]

L: Draw a [1]
L: You may return a card from your hand and draw a card of the same value.
You may return a card from your score pile.  If you do, repeat this dogma effect.


Canoe
[X]
[C][L][C]

C: Draw and reveal a [1].  Meld it if its color is not present on your board.  Otherwise, score it.



Blue

Scrolls
[X]
[C][B][B]

B: I demand you draw a [1]!
B: If any card was drawn due to the demand, draw a card of value one higher than the last card drawn due to the demand.
B: Meld the highest card in your hand.


Harvest Moon
[X]
[L][L][L]

L: I demand you score a card from your hand!
L: You may score a card from your hand.
L: Draw a card of value equal to the last card scored due to Harvest Moon.


Trading
[X]
[C][C][C]

C: Claim a standard achievement, if eligible.
C: You may return a top card from your board and draw two cards of value equal to the card returned.
C: You may return two cards of equal value from your hand and draw and meld a card of that value.



AGE 2


Blue

Modeling
[X]
[B][B][T]

B: Draw three cards, each of any value.  Return all drawn cards with no [T].

Murals
[X]
[L][B][B]

[B]: Reveal any number of cards from your hand.  Return one of them.  Draw and score a card of value equal to the number of different icons revealed.


Red

Pulley
[X]
[T][T][T]

T: Draw a [2].
T: Meld a card from your hand.

Ram
[T]
[X][B][T]

T: I demand you draw a [3], then transfer the highest card from your hand to my hand!


Yellow

Assimilation
[C]
[L][X][C]

[C]: I demand you draw a [1]!  If you have no [9] in hand, I may repeat this demand!
[C]: Draw and meld two [2]s.

Clans
[L]
[X][L][L]

[L]: Choose a value.  Tuck that many cards of that value from your hand.  If you do tuck that many cards, draw a card of value one higher than the cards you tucked.


Green

Tilling
[T]
[L][X][T]

[T]: Draw 3 [1]'s.  Meld one, return the rest.

Taxes
[C]
[C][C]X][T]

[C]: I demand you transfer a [1] from your score pile to my hand!
[C]: Score a green card from your hand.  Tuck a red card from your hand.


Purple
Great Walls
[T]
[T][X][T]

[T]: Choose a different color for every 2 [T] on your board.
[T]: Draw two [2]'s.  Score each drawn card that matches a color you chose.

Archives
[B]
[X][B][B]

[B]: Choose a top card on your board.  You may splay your cards of that color left and draw a card of that value.



AGE 3


Green

Trade Routes
[X]
[B][T][T]

T: Choose one or two top cards on your board and score them.  If you scored two, transfer your bottom blue card to another player's board.  If you do, that player transfers their bottom purple card to your board.

Castes
[X]
[L][L][T]

[L]: Tuck any number of differently valued cards from your hand.  If you tucked at least four, repeat this dogma effect.
[L]: If you tucked at least one, you may splay your blue or purple cards left.


Yellow

Coliseum
[T]
[T][X][T]

T: You may return a card from your score pile.
T: Draw and score a card of value one less than the lowest card present in your score pile.

Monasteries
[B]
[B][X][L]

[B]: Draw a card of value 3 higher than your lowest top card


Red


Jesters
[B]
[B][X][B]

[B]: I demand you draw a card of any value and reveal it!  Meld it or transfer it to my score pile, my choice!

Pharmacology
[X]
[T][C][T]

[T]: You may return a top card from your board.
[T]: Draw and tuck a [4].


Purple

Bards
[L]
[X][L][C]

[L]: Reveal a non-[10] card from your score pile.  Splay your cards of its color such that non-top cards show as many icons as a third of its value, rounded up.
[L]: I demand you return a card from your score pile with a value less than the card I revealed!

Bloodlines
[T]
[X][T][T]

[T]: I demand you transfer a green card with no [C], a yellow card with no [L], or a red card with no [T] from your board to my board!  If you do, draw a [1] and you may meld a card from your hand!


Blue

Curators
[X]
[B][C][C]

[C]: You may splay one color of your cards left.  Draw and score a [2] for each newly revealed [T] revealed this way.
[C]: If you have no non-red top cards with a [T], claim the World achievement.


Relics
[X]
[C][C][C]

[C]: Draw and meld a card of value one higher than the number of claimed achievements.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 05:09:12 pm by popsofctown »
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timchen

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2013, 04:30:03 pm »
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15 card at once is a bit much...

From the first few cards:

Lookout Post: Not sure where the potential is; as it is worded, it seems rather unlikely to grab a hand with more than 2 cards. No icon repetition among 3 cards is a bit unreal. If the purpose is just to look at opponent's hand, it is probably easier to just say "I demand you reveal two cards from hand."

Ramps: a bit on the weak side.

Territorialism: I really like this card. Hard to say how useful in practice though.
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randomdragoon

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 05:10:46 pm »
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Lookout Post: I'm not sure if anyone would ever choose to transfer all cards, since revealing a card only means the demander only gets to draw 1 card (possibly of a higher age). There's also probably a better way to phrase the bottom part...
T: If any card was revealed due to the demand, draw and reveal [1]s until you reveal a card that shares an icon with a card revealed by the demand. Put that card into your hand and return the other revealed cards.
That said, I'm still having trouble seeing when "transfer all cards" is ever going to be chosen, unless they have only 1 card or something. (If they have 0 cards, the "reveal a card" option will fail too, so it makes no difference)
A perhaps-more-interesting option would be the following:
T: I demand you reveal your hand!
T: Draw a [1].

Ramps: It's pretty similar to Road Building minus the red-green transfer shenanigans. There are probably some fun things you could do by intentionally sharing this late in the game.
(Now that I say that, shouldn't this be true about Road Building as well? Actually, it's rare to be able to share a tower card lategame while having a top card with 3 towers on it. Hmmm....)

Crop rotation
L: If you have at least one card in your score pile, ... (gotta remember those bonuses, unless you really do mean you can draw two [1] if you have a bonus)

Ingenuity: Reminds me of mathematics. I question how useful it will be in practice though, since many cards with a B on them allow you to tech up by themselves anyway.

Storytelling: I feel this is really strong. Early, it develops your board while scoring (since tuck==meld when your color is empty), similar to clothing. Unlike clothing though, it's still useful late. It's probably better than agriculture most of the time.
I'd consider
L: Tuck a card from your hand. Score the top card of its color.
Mostly weaker but maybe has some fun shenanigans if strong things get tucked.

Territorialism: Seems incredibly situational. I'd probably only use it if I can get to an achievement before my opponent, but otherwise it seems that it will generally help your opponent especially since he gets to choose which card to meld. If your opponent doesn't have much of a choice, he either has (a) not many points, so why are you attacking his score pile, or (b) has only a couple of high-value cards in his score pile, in which case you're just giving him a powerful top card.
It's also interesting to note that no card actually lets you meld a single card from your score pile currently, what age would that be in?

Messengers: A potentially scarily fast scoring engine (that doesn't even slow you down, like agriculture/pottery!) once the low age cards are depleted. Compare to pottery: If N is your current age and all cards <N are depleted, pottery is score an [N] and net 0 cards in your hand, while this card is score an [N] and net 1 card in your hand. Sure the card you net is the worse of two options, but there are always uses for cards in hand.

Staves: Play it when the [1] deck has 1 card in it, instant monument.

Swimming: Why the clothing hate? It seems out of place.
The two other effects should be reversed, so that it's not possible for a player to end the action with zero top cards. No other age 1-2 card has the ability to leave a player with zero top cards.

Scrolls: I think it should just be "If any card was drawn due to the demand, draw and meld a card of value one higher than the last card drawn due to the demand". It's cleaner.
It's worse, yes, but age 1 cards aren't supposed to be amazing or anything.

Trading:
C: Claim a standard achievement, if eligible.
C: You may return a top card from your board and draw two cards of value equal to the returned card.
C: You may return two cards of from your hand and draw and meld a card of value equal to the lower of the two returned cards

I think the third effect should be "You may return two cards of equal value from your hand and draw and meld a card of that value". It's minor.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 05:12:21 pm by randomdragoon »
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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2013, 06:00:58 pm »
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Lookout post: The option to transfer all cards was a mental misstep from jumping between various versions of the card.
I changed the phrasing to be more like yours.
I really wanna keep the techup component.

Crop Rotation: Working as intended. 

Ingenuity: The self destruct capability is supposed to help with the weakness.

Storytelling: I nerfed it sightly to "card above".  While being a little bit better than Agriculture is not a sin, I don't want it to ever compare favorably to Clothing.

Messengers: I nerfed it by an icon.  I think it's definitely balanced with only two castles.  It's your opponent's fault if they supervised all your draws and still let you maintain castle control for an extended period of time.  (Similar to Metalworking)

Staves: Well, I was leaning towards the 19 card pile design I mentioned in the opening post, which is why I wasn't concerned about this.  I'll change it if I decide to go to a 9 card design.
Of course, you could still whittle the Echoes 1's all the way down to a single card, then Stave it for Monument, but if you pull that off I feel like you earned it, since it takes more effort to empty the Echoes pile.

Swimming: Reworded it to scale to multiplayer properly, and force fair exchanges.
I wanted Clothing hate on the card because using the card happens to open you up to Clothing pretty dangerously, and Clothing is OP as it is.  But, it is not that good aesthetically so I should let go.

Scrolls: Well, what would you think about "B:Draw a card of value one higher than the value of the last card drawn due to the demand, then meld the highest card in your hand."?  That would make it share like a Sailing, but still stick to 1-for-1 as a demand.

Trading: Changed.  I decided to go with the cleaner version you proposed. 
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randomdragoon

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2013, 07:09:31 pm »
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Lookout post: You can combine the last two effects. It won't make a significant difference in play, since any card skipped over the first time will be skipped over the second time. However, combining the two effects means players won't have to remember which cards they drew but can't keep. (I can imagine some guy playing this card for the first time, applying the dogma effects one line at a time, and then going 'oh crap i'm supposed to remember which cards I drew??')

Crop rotation: In any case, the "if" clause should go in front: If your score isn't zero, ...

Staves: idk, it just feels aesthetically "wrong" to be able to return the same card 5 times and claim the monument achievement. (Or returning the same card indefinitely by refusing to name the correct icon type)

Scrolls: It doesn't really matter either way, just that "draw and meld" is a pretty established pattern and you need a good reason to do something that's almost the same thing but not quite.
I realize now that your original wording means you can deviously share the third effect, but I'm not sure it's worth it.
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Axxle

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 07:17:42 pm »
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I was wondering why you named the expansion "popped" and then, POP!, realization.
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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 07:26:30 pm »
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Lookout post: You can combine the last two effects. It won't make a significant difference in play, since any card skipped over the first time will be skipped over the second time. However, combining the two effects means players won't have to remember which cards they drew but can't keep. (I can imagine some guy playing this card for the first time, applying the dogma effects one line at a time, and then going 'oh crap i'm supposed to remember which cards I drew??')
What wording are you suggesting?  Since the draws are revealed, there's a little bit of redundancy to help out with the memory issue.

Quote
Crop rotation: In any case, the "if" clause should go in front: If your score isn't zero, ...
Thanks.
Quote
Staves: idk, it just feels aesthetically "wrong" to be able to return the same card 5 times and claim the monument achievement. (Or returning the same card indefinitely by refusing to name the correct icon type)
You aren't a magic player, are you?
As I said, I'd only allow the combo to work if echoes is also being used.  Which is already pretty wonky.
Quote
Scrolls: It doesn't really matter either way, just that "draw and meld" is a pretty established pattern and you need a good reason to do something that's almost the same thing but not quite.
I realize now that your original wording means you can deviously share the third effect, but I'm not sure it's worth it.
Unshareable cards are really bad design in prehistory.  Prehistory only has 2 unshareable cards. I already have 1 truly unshareable card, and I have a couple that are difficult to share.
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randomdragoon

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 12:44:09 am »
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For Lookout post: "If any card was revealed due to the demand, draw and reveal cards of value equal to the last card revealed this way until you reveal a card that shares an icon with it. Put that card into your hand and return the rest."

Staves: You still have to deal with the rules question of whether a player is allowed to indefinitely stall the game by refusing to name an icon that would allow him to draw the last age 1 card.

Scrolls: Sure, it's your call, either way the difference is minor.
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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2013, 09:12:28 am »
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You know, actually, I'm thinking I should simplify Lookout post to something like your earlier suggestion.


Stalling the game indefinitely would not be allowed.  On a casual level, people will be like, "stop being a dick, you have monument already, just name Clock".  On a competitive level, there would be an official specific rule about it, just like innovation needs an official specific rule to deal with Rocketry/Machine Tools stalemates.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 09:17:59 am by popsofctown »
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randomdragoon

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2013, 10:18:16 am »
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You know, actually, I'm thinking I should simplify Lookout post to something like your earlier suggestion.


Stalling the game indefinitely would not be allowed.  On a casual level, people will be like, "stop being a dick, you have monument already, just name Clock".  On a competitive level, there would be an official specific rule about it, just like innovation needs an official specific rule to deal with Rocketry/Machine Tools stalemates.
At least rocketry/machine tools requires two people to agree that a stalemate is in their best interest.

Another clarification: Staves should either specify either "If you returned 5 cards this way [with this dogma action] or [this turn]"
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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2013, 10:34:52 am »
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Tried to rework staff..
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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2013, 02:20:15 pm »
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Mild buff to Territorialism
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ancientcampus

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2013, 05:10:57 pm »
+1

I like Trading :)

popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2013, 06:22:58 pm »
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I added some more cards.

I think I'm going to take my hands off of cards that claim special achievements, partly because I'm not a fan of them, partly because it makes the descriptions on the achievements themselves more complete.
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randomdragoon

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2013, 01:45:43 am »
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Modeling: Unless you're planning on breaking the "no towers after age 4 rule", I'd say make it "draw 3 cards, each of value [3] or lower" or something to that effect. It's not really good design to present the players with a choice but have some of the choices be absolutely wrong 99.9% of the time. It's rarely relevant enough to spend an action to move the top card of an age to the bottom for that functionality to stay in, IMO.
It should also be "draw and reveal" - just because base Innovation has a bunch of cards that you can cheat doesn't mean you should add more.

Murals - sounds fun, except that I think agriculture is better almost all the time.

Pulley - I suggest [T] Draw a [2], then meld a card from your hand. Makes no difference functionally and the individual actions are simple enough to combine. (See, for example, Domestication)

Ram - This one is cool. You can use it like Writing in age 2 (though this is bad, but with more than 2 players it might be much better), or like Archery to steal tech.

Assimilation - I think it would be cleaner without the "I may repeat this demand" -- getting four actions for one is already insane, even with the mild compensation.

Clans - I tried to think of a better wording, then gave up.

Tilling - Should be "Draw and reveal..." If only innovation had the tech of "look at the top 3 [1]s" but alas, it doesn't.

Taxes - It's similar to mapmaking, but it just ... doesn't seem to have Mapmaking's potential. Mapmaking isn't exciting because it gets rid of your opponent's score 1 point at a time, it's exciting because it's conditionally (i.e. if your opponent pushed clothing or metalworking early) a fast, repeatable scorer, one that gets better the more piles are depleted. Taxes feels like, the demand effect is some minor thing that gets ignored, and maybe the second effect will help me. Mapmaking has a similar demand, but since it's tied to a strong second effect, I care about the demand. Taxes I would use if the second effect helps me, and probably not worry about my opponent's score too much, since killing score by 1 point is really a weak effect.

Great Walls - "Draw and reveal...". Also, the two effects should be the same effect - [T]: Choose a different color for every two [T] on your board. Draw and reveal two [2]. Score each revealed card that is a color you chose.

Archive - a better wording is [B ]: Splay left any one of your colors. Draw a card of value equal to the value of the top card of that color.
Also - Every other splay effect in the game has a "you may", is it intentional that this one doesn't?








« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 01:46:57 am by randomdragoon »
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zaratustra

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 08:36:45 pm »
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If I understand correctly, Assimilation lets you make a player take all cards between ages 1 and 8 into their hand with a single action? That's crazy.

edit: and not only because you might be melding Composites in the same action.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 08:40:38 pm by zaratustra »
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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2013, 08:37:34 pm »
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:)
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randomdragoon

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 12:11:28 am »
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Oh that's how assimilation works. I am almost sure it's broken somehow, but you at least made sure to put it in the same color as machinery...

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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 05:09:57 pm »
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I was just gonna type these up and leave them there, but it takes so long to do the fancy coloring and stuff i feel like I want to bump for my small update
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AJD

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 05:18:22 pm »
+2


Jesters
[B]
[B][X][B]

[B]: I demand you draw a card of any value and reveal it!  Meld it or transfer it to my score pile, my choice!

I see what you did there.
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Kahryl

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2013, 05:36:21 pm »
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Really nice expansion. Variety and balance, more or less. Some critique on particular cards..

Staff: If I choose tower, draw feudalism, choose crown, draw optics, choose factories, draw colonialism, choose leaf, draw anatomy, choose bulb, draw experimentation, choose clock, draw navigation.. do I win the game? I CHOSE all six icons, but only matched five of them.

All these age 1 draw-and-scorers can get REALLY strong, you know. Canoe, for example, is basically an age 1 machine tools with a nice icon kick at the start.

Assimilation: Really freaky. I love how you made this the same color as Machinery. I like a card that is potentially crazy but isn't easy to instant-win combo.

Clans: I have four cards in hand, all Age2. I choose a value (4), and meld all my cards. Do I draw an Age3 or Age5 card? If it's Age3, what if the cards I melded hadn't all had the same age? If it's Age5, that's insane. You can jump to age 10 just by getting 9 cards in hand and having Clans melded. That's EASY.

Pharmacology: Seems really weak. At least reverse the order of the two dogmas so you have a bit of an easier time making an Age4 your top card.

Relics: I'm not sure, but this seems really nuts. Maybe I just play too many expansions and with too many people. I'd change "one higher than" to "equal to" so that it doesn't break the game TOO easily. Even if players are behind on achievements, it's a draw and meld and will probably burn through the dregs of the earlier ages pretty fast.
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AJD

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2013, 05:52:44 pm »
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Clans: I have four cards in hand, all Age2. I choose a value (4), and meld all my cards. Do I draw an Age3 or Age5 card? If it's Age3, what if the cards I melded hadn't all had the same age? If it's Age5, that's insane. You can jump to age 10 just by getting 9 cards in hand and having Clans melded. That's EASY.

What? In that case, Clans would be telling you to tuck four 4s, and if you do draw a 5. There's no melding involved, and you can't do anything with four 2s with it.
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popsofctown

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Re: Base "popped": fan expansion
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2013, 09:52:37 pm »
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AJD has it right.

You have it right on Staff Kahryl, you only need 5 "hits".  I figured 5 should be difficult enough, either towers or clocks will be hard to reach.

Pharmocology shares a property that all the base techup cards have, which is that it can't easily draw and meld Gunpowder.  This can draw and meld Gunpowder, but not easily.  For the most part age 3 in echoes preserves that rule to and I like to keep it.  Maybe it should be stronger, I dunno.  It's stronger than Feudalism, right? hey-o


Multiplayer is inherently nuts, I don't see the power creep on Relics to be worse than the power creep on multiple-victim demands.
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