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[shraeye]

So this has frustrated me as I read through strategy articles and posts by others.  What the heck is a cantrip?  And no, not the dominion-definition, I got that.  I'm trying to figure out why a card which gives extra action(s) and card(s) [[I frankly don't care about the minutiae of which cards are slightly more/less than an official cantrip]] would be given a name like cantrip.  Am I missing something obvious?

[WanderingWinder]

I know it comes from Magic the Gathering, where cards that replace themselves are called cantrips. I think they got that from Dungeons and Dragons. I'm not sure where the history goes before that.

[shraeye]

Ah, I'm super unfamiliar with Magic the Gathering, so that is a strong possibility.  I'd consider myself familiar (though possibly just below knowledgeable) with D and D, and I'm not sure what cantrip means in that setting.

[Jack Rudd]

I'd consider myself familiar (though possibly just below knowledgeable) with D and D, and I'm not sure what cantrip means in that setting.

In 3rd edition, it's a 0-level Arcane spell.

[ChaosRed]

A cantrip is a weak, novice spell. In D&D (they came along in 2nd edition I believe), they were 0-level spells that did minor things, (like send a whisper over a crowded room, or break a small stick from a distance).

Later in Magic it came to mean any Magic card that let you draw from your deck as part of its ability, staying card neutral.

[ftl]

In English (not D&D specifically), a cantrip is a magic spell. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cantrip . According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantrip , in D&D and in Warhammer Fantasy a cantrip is specifically a weak and simple spell. In Magic the Gathering a cantrip is used to mean a card that lets you draw a card as part of its effect; which brings us to the Dominion meaning, which is pretty similar.

The meaning change which doesn't quite make as much sense is the one from D&D to MTG; I would guess that in MTG, cards that were self-replacing were typically "weak and simple spells".

[rod-]

The meaning change which doesn't quite make as much sense is the one from D&D to MTG; I would guess that in MTG, cards that were self-replacing were typically "weak and simple spells".

It's this.  The original 'cantrip' cards in MTG were attempts to create weak effects that were still worth playing.  In order to make these effects worth playing, they needed to be self-replacing, because cards in hand is at least as important a resource in magic as in dominion.  Effects like "look at your opponent's hand" are not powerful enough to be worth a card, but "look at your opponent's hand.  draw a card" are (rarely).

[DG]

I do not know the exact derivation but I suspect that a D&D cantrip spell did not cost any capability to use. Normally the wizard could only cast a certain number of spells each day but the cantrips did not count towards that limit. A MtG cantrip spell would be cast with a new card drawn to replace it, so it did not cost any significant capability to use. This has been carried over to Dominion as +1 card/+1 action acts similarly to the drawing mechanic of the MtG cantrip.

I don't think this name is especially helpful to anyone without a MtG background. Unfortunately nobody has come up with better terminology.

[rrenaud]

Spammable action and self replacing action are both used sometimes.

[DG]

Having put some deep thought into the matter (maybe) I suggest that we actually start calling them "serial" actions. This would even make sense alongside "terminal" actions.

[rrenaud]

(This is mostly facetious, I think serial makes sense if you can get people to adopt it).

[cayvie]

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.

[Donald X.]

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.

In D&D cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.

[Cave-o-sapien]

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.

In D&D cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.

Using my google-fu I see that 'cantrip' is a very old Scottish word meaning a trick or a small bit of magic.  Therefore it's very unlikely that it was invented by the designers of D&D or Magic: The Gathering.  Havins said that, I think you can see why both of those games would use it quite independent of the other, just as they both use words like 'golem,' 'necromancer' and 'sorcery.'

If one uses 'cantrip' for a Dominion card, it would seem a nod to the Magic: The Gathering sense of the word, meaning a card that replaces itself.  Personally I don't think it fits, as sorcery isn't a central theme to Dominion, but then again neither is canned meat product ('spammable').

[ftl]

Personally I don't think it fits, as sorcery isn't a central theme to Dominion,

Well, it's not about the 'sorcery' meaning - it's about the 'card that replaces itself' meaning. In that sense, it fits very well - and the theme of the cards isn't necessarily relevant.

but then again neither is canned meat product ('spammable').

Oh, come on. The meat product isn't even remotely close to being the predominant use use of the word "spam" anymore.

[DG]

Spammable doesn't have an intrinsic meaning anyway. What property does a message have that means it can or can't be sent unsolicited across the internet?

[rrenaud]

You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

You can play a spammable card without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

[Cave-o-sapien]

Personally I don't think it fits, as sorcery isn't a central theme to Dominion,

Well, it's not about the 'sorcery' meaning

"Cantrip" made sense in Magic both thematically AND in game-play.  Most cards are a spell of some sort, so it makes sense to have a card with a small effect be named with a word that means a small bit of magical trickery.  It's quite a good name, really.  Kudos to whoever coined its MtG usage.

As you infer, to use the word in Dominion we reference the in-game effect rather than the thematic meaning.  But is the theme of Dominion so nebulous that we can't come up with something better than a ripoff from another game or a term that many associate with p e n 1 s pills and 419 scams?

You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

Indeed many people's machines are sending spam as we speak without them thinking one ms about it.


Of the terms I've heard so far, I like "serial" the best.

[Donald X.]

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.

In D&D cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.

Using my google-fu I see that 'cantrip' is a very old Scottish word meaning a trick or a small bit of magic.  Therefore it's very unlikely that it was invented by the designers of D&D or Magic: The Gathering.  Havins said that, I think you can see why both of those games would use it quite independent of the other, just as they both use words like 'golem,' 'necromancer' and 'sorcery.'

Since you quoted my post, it looks like you're responding to me, when in fact you neither refute, agree with, or otherwise interact with my correct assertion that, in D&D, cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.

That's the internet for you!

Also Magic got the term from D&D. I know this because the people who work on Magic have said it flat out, starting with the people who worked on Ice Age, where they introduced cantrips. So no, not like, well not like necromancer and sorcery. Golem was a poor example since Magic's Golems started out as D&D Golems rather than Jewish ones.

[ftl]

or a term that many associate with p e n 1 s pills and 419 scams?

'spam', at least, has taken root in gaming as a whole, not just Dominion, meaning any sort of repetitive action. I've heard it in Super Smash Brothers and in other fighting games and Starcraft and now Dominion. Seems like a futile and somewhat pointless effort to make up a new word to replace it for Dominion only.

[Anon79]

You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

You can play a spammable card without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

Reminds me of the game where my (rather new) opponent opened his turn spamming Farming Villages, Worker's Villages and Laboratories, paused, then bought a copper when he realised the only treasure left in his deck was a single Silver. (Courtesy of Forge.) He then typed something to the effect of "Lol I screwed myself." I advised that he can do Lab + Enhanced Village = Platinum, but I think he didn't see the reply until 2 turns later. Cost him the game too.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110928-224113-e3efc297.html

[DG]

You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

Yes but since we're going back to the derivation of words, what property does spam have that makes it 'spammable'? Explaining the property that Dominion cards have that makes them spammable, without explaining what property spam has that makes it spammable, is only a half answer. Surely anything and everything can be sent as an unsolicited message, whether it's a Monty Python script or the US constitution?

[Kuildeous]

I typically call them "zero-sum" cards because your hand count and action count remain the same after playing the card. I am sad that the term has never caught on.

Note that this means that while I consider Pearl Diver, Spy, and Familiar to be in this category, I do not consider Village or its ilk to be in the category. This also means that Wishing Well conditionally is zero sum.


It's at least faster than saying, "You lose nothing by buying this card, unless you have terminal actions that draw cards.

[Cave-o-sapien]

Also Magic got the term from D&D. I know this because the people who work on Magic have said it flat out, starting with the people who worked on Ice Age, where they introduced cantrips.

I like my romanticized notion of some neck-bearded Magic player, in his stained T-shirt at some dingy game store in a strip mall, independently coming up with the term "cantrip" better than your pesky factual history.

Golem was a poor example since Magic's Golems started out as D&D Golems rather than Jewish ones.

I'm always getting my Golems mixed up.

[guided]

We have a word with a clear etymology that makes perfect sense in this context, and people know what it means. There is no value whatsoever in searching for some different competing term to attempt to proliferate in its place.