Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[chwhite]

I prefer calling +1 Card/+1 Action cards cantrips as opposed to spammable because they already mean different things.  Namely, spammable is a wider set, including cards such as Village and Laboratory that you can play over and over and over (like cantrips) but which provide *additional* +Card/+Action benefits.  Cantrip is a perfectly useful word for describing cards which don't take up a Action/spot in hand but also don't give you any extra Actions or cards.

And it doesn't bother me that we're using a term stolen from Magic, especially given Dominion's provenance.  I guess "serial" would work too, but why bother?

[Cave-o-sapien]

We have a word with a clear etymology that makes perfect sense in this context, and people know what it means.

I'm smiling because I'm honestly not sure which word you're talking about here. 

[barsooma]

Spam/spammable is a far better term.

It describes the effect perfectly and is already in widespread use in the WOW and wider video game community (conservatively 1000 times larger than the Dominion community).

http://www.diablowiki.net/Spammable

[rrenaud]

Heh.  We start with a blog, and then we think, hey this isn't flexible enough, so we make a forum.

Then we get a forum, and we think, hey, this isn't flexible enough, how about a wiki . 

If some (one or many) want to write a comprehensive dominion lingo guide (including competing and possibly personally disliked terms that people actually use), I'll happily front page it.

[Cave-o-sapien]

Spam/spammable is a far better term.

It describes the effect perfectly and is already in widespread use in the WOW and wider video game community (conservatively 1000 times larger than the Dominion community).

http://www.diablowiki.net/Spammable

So it looks it's the Magic players vs. the WoW players in a duel/pvp to decide the issue.  Truly a showdown for the ages.

[chwhite]

Spam/spammable is a far better term.

It describes the effect perfectly and is already in widespread use in the WOW and wider video game community (conservatively 1000 times larger than the Dominion community).

http://www.diablowiki.net/Spammable

No, no, no.  All cantrips are spammable, but not all spammable cards are cantrips.  If you want a term specifically for cards that give exactly +1 Card and +1 Action, spammable is a bad choice, because it applies to cards that do more than that as well.

[ChaosRed]

For what its worth, I always thought a cantrip in Dominion was specifically +1 Action, +1 Card, meaning it does really nothing at all, the focus is then on the additional ability. For example Great Hall is a cantrip that gives you +1VP. Caravan is a cantrip, with a duration effect, etc. etc. Also I think the term, "cantrip" is perfect. Who cares if it used by other games in other contexts? That's not uncommon in games at all.

[DG]

I guess "serial" would work too, but why bother?

Because all the other words, to be honest, are awful.

Who cares if it used by other games in other contexts?

It isn't a problem that it's used elsewhere. The problem is that it isn't used anywhere else except by a geeky community of collectable card game players. We might as well ask a Star Trek fan what the Klingon word for a chain reaction in a Dilithium crystal chamber is called and use that word. Terminal is a good name for a type of card since we all have an idea what a terminal is. The dictionary meaning and common meaning of terminal also loosely fit how terminal Dominion cards behave.

[guided]

So the community of people who discuss Dominion strategy with such frequency that they need specialized jargon is... not geeky?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would link the XKCD about the futility of introducing competing standards alongside already established standards, but rrenaud already did. It's not as if any of these terms is so self-evident that it would alleviate the need for the audience to already be familiar with the jargon.

[barsooma]

So the community of people who discuss Dominion strategy with such frequency that they need specialized jargon is... not geeky?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would link the XKCD about the futility of introducing competing standards alongside already established standards, but rrenaud already did. It's not as if any of these terms is so self-evident that it would alleviate the need for the audience to already be familiar with the jargon.

Well sure if it's only going to be used on this board we can call it anything.. how about a splangle? I like the sound of that.

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.

[greatexpectations]

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.

if they are bothering to frequent these forums they have plenty of dominion language to learn anyway.  cantrip is nothing compared to many of the other terms tossed around here. 

[Cave-o-sapien]

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.

Which of those terms would you use when teaching the game to your parents?  I'm not saying that should be the criterion for choosing a term, but if we want an outsider to understand it, I think "chainable" is the only one that makes sense.  But that word casts a much wider net than "cantrip" does. 

For what its worth, I always thought a cantrip in Dominion was specifically +1 Action, +1 Card, meaning it does really nothing at all, the focus is then on the additional ability. For example Great Hall is a cantrip that gives you +1VP. Caravan is a cantrip, with a duration effect, etc. etc.

I appreciate the distinction you are trying to draw between spammable/chainable and cantrip, but it seems like a very fuzzy divide.  A Laboratory is a cantrip that gives you an extra card.  A Village is a cantrip that gives you an extra action.  A Market is a cantrip that gives you an extra buy and an extra coin.  A Grand Market is a cantrip with an extra buy and 2 extra coin ...   and pretty soon we're fairly far away from the Magic meaning which (if I understand people correctly) was a somewhat crappy card that replaced itself.

Furthermore, the effect of a card replacing itself in Magic was a fairly novel concept at the time; in Dominion drawing a card and getting an action are two of the core benefits a card can provide. 

[guided]

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.

Because their guess will not generally be correct, and "cantrip" is already in use. If "splangle" were already common usage instead, that would be fine. Proposing to replace the existing jargon with new jargon succeeds only in adding a new bit of redundant jargon to muddle the picture since people will keep using the old terminology that wasn't broken to begin with.

[barsooma]

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.

Because their guess will not generally be correct, and "cantrip" is already in use. If "splangle" were already common usage instead, that would be fine. Proposing to replace the existing jargon with new jargon succeeds only in adding a new bit of redundant jargon to muddle the picture since people will keep using the old terminology that wasn't broken to begin with.

Really I'm not sure why this debate exists in the first place.. is there really so much strategic discussion centered around these cards that they even need a name?

[rinkworks]

Really I'm not sure why this debate exists in the first place.. is there really so much strategic discussion centered around these cards that they even need a name?

Well, yes, actually.  Cantrips are distinct from other action cards -- even other non-terminals -- for being harmlessly insertable into many different types of engines.  An awful lot of Dominion strategy discussion involves talk about how engines will choke on green, or curses, or treasures, etc.  But most engines don't choke at all on cantrips, which makes them good engine kickers and/or targets for three-pile endings.

It's often not sufficient merely to say "non-terminals," too.  Because while any kind of non-terminal can augment at Library engine, it's the non-terminals that don't replace themselves that enable the Libraries to draw more cards.  In other engines, cards like Festival and Lighthouse are good for, say, Minion engines in moderation but space out the Minions too much in excess -- whereas cantrips may supplement a Minion deck without limit.

So not only do we need a term for the concept of a cantrip, we could use one for "non-drawing non-terminal," too.

Anyway, this, to me, is the best reason not to try to be too strict about the term "cantrip" by arbitrarily excluding Village and Laboratory from the group, just because they offer the wrong kind of supplemental benefit.  Because in practical discussions of actual Dominion strategy, it's almost never useful to talk about cantrips as a group excluding Villages and Laboratories.  Offhand, I can't even think of a single example of such a real-world situation.

[Epoch]

Anyway, this, to me, is the best reason not to try to be too strict about the term "cantrip" by arbitrarily excluding Village and Laboratory from the group, just because they offer the wrong kind of supplemental benefit.  Because in practical discussions of actual Dominion strategy, it's almost never useful to talk about cantrips as a group excluding Villages and Laboratories.  Offhand, I can't even think of a single example of such a real-world situation.

The major reason why you'd want to talk about "cantrips as opposed to villages" is that you'd be talking about situations where cantrips aren't good enough.  Like, where you actually specifically need villages, not just cantrips.  And there are tons of those situations, and we commonly discuss them.

I guess that the other reason to talk about "cantrips as opposed to villages" is that you're talking about, say, delivering a payload with cantrips and the payload of "one more action" isn't very useful unless you have terminals, but I agree, we don't actually in practice need to talk about that much.

It would be the same with "cantrips as opposed to labs," though I think that again in practice it doesn't come up that much.  You'd be talking about the situations where you need the extra drawing power of labs, not merely the self-replacement of cantrips.  I've seen this come up a bit in the discussion of engines -- like, you can't have a "Grand Market Engine" or a "Conspirator Engine," because they can't draw a payload reliably -- they are their own payload, of course, and good for that.  Not that I want to get into a discussion of whether that point of view is correct on this thread, so please let's done.  Just that it's come up in real world discussions before.

So what are the broad categories of cards we might want to talk about?

Victory cards
Action cards
Action-Duration cards
Treasure cards
Curses
Kingdom cards
Terminal Actions
Non-terminal, non-replacing Actions
Cantrips
Villages
Labs
Smithies (terminal card-drawers)

Anything else?  Obviously, some of those categories subsume others.

[rinkworks]

Anyway, this, to me, is the best reason not to try to be too strict about the term "cantrip" by arbitrarily excluding Village and Laboratory from the group, just because they offer the wrong kind of supplemental benefit.  Because in practical discussions of actual Dominion strategy, it's almost never useful to talk about cantrips as a group excluding Villages and Laboratories.  Offhand, I can't even think of a single example of such a real-world situation.

The major reason why you'd want to talk about "cantrips as opposed to villages" is that you'd be talking about situations where cantrips aren't good enough.  Like, where you actually specifically need villages, not just cantrips.  And there are tons of those situations, and we commonly discuss them.

Yes, but then you're really just talking about "villages," and the only reason -- if any -- to talk about "cantrips other than villages" is to clarify that it's what you're NOT talking about.  That surely doesn't count.

So what are the broad categories of cards we might want to talk about?

Money-giving actions, important in discussions of countering Thief and especially Pirate Ship.  They're also particularly good supplements to Minion engines.

I already mentioned "non-drawing non-terminals," good companions for Library and Watchtower.

Vanilla cards, though that comes up more in conversation about card design than strategy.

Gainers, like Workshop/Ironworks/Horn of Plenty -- cards that offer a +Buy substitute, which is sometimes important as a category.

Dual-type cards, which make a lot of interesting combos possible, such as with Tribute, Transmute, and Ironworks.  An interesting point here -- mirroring the point I made about including villages and labs in the "cantrip" category for practical convenience -- is that "action/victory" is a dual-type card but "action/attack" is not.  I guess "attack" is more of a subtype?  But I'm not sure "reaction" is a subtype, and yet "action/reaction" doesn't count either, even though both those types have their own dedicated colors.  Again, it's a tug-of-war between literal truth and practical usefulness within a discussion of Dominion rules and strategy.

Attacks are sometimes nice to subdivide into categories like cursing attacks, hand-reduction attacks, deck-inspection attacks, and so on.

I guess most of these categories of cards have terms, if unwieldy ones in some cases.  But a few are still missing terminology that would be helpful to have.

[Epoch]

Yes, but then you're really just talking about "villages," and the only reason -- if any -- to talk about "cantrips other than villages" is to clarify that it's what you're NOT talking about.  That surely doesn't count.

Doesn't it?  What are the criteria for "counting"?

I already mentioned "non-drawing non-terminals," good companions for Library and Watchtower.

I called those "Non-terminal, non-replacing Actions."

[Kuildeous]

Well, yes, actually.  Cantrips are distinct from other action cards -- even other non-terminals -- for being harmlessly insertable into many different types of engines.  An awful lot of Dominion strategy discussion involves talk about how engines will choke on green, or curses, or treasures, etc.  But most engines don't choke at all on cantrips, which makes them good engine kickers and/or targets for three-pile endings.

Okay, the official word should be "lube," not so much because it's accurate but because the horrified looks from new players would just be priceless.

[Zaphod]

Spammable doesn't have an intrinsic meaning anyway. What property does a message have that means it can or can't be sent unsolicited across the internet?

I think it goes something like this.

We refer to cards as "spammable" because you can play several of them in one turn.  The term is derived from internet spam, which is sent in bulk.  Several sources (including the Internet Society) credit the internet term's etymology to the classic Monty Python routine about a restaurant where everything on the menu includes Spam; the word "Spam" is sung repeatedly in the background.  The sketch came about in part because Spam was ubiquitous in the UK, because of American presence there during WW II combined with the fact that Spam was among the few meats not rationed during that period.  As a result, Brits are quite tired of the stuff.

So, what do the lunch meat, the sketch, the internet term and the gaming term have in common?  They all refer to something that is done, or available, in bulk.

[DG]

I know the Monty Python. That explains spam. What about spam makes it spammable? Nothing. Virtually anything can used as junk mail or can propagate unwanted messages. We could send images of a Dominion copper coin through the internet as spam e-mail to random mailboxes, or ask every user on facebook to be a friend of the pirate ship. Spammable has *absolutely* no meaning other than what we invent for it. Jesters, ambassadors, witches and so on might send unsolicited cards to other players, but playing a couple of menagerie isn't what I'd call spamming.

[ftl]

What about spam makes it spammable? Nothing.

Repetition is what makes something "spammable". This isn't a dominion term specifically, nor is it limited to junk mail or unsolicited messages.

[biopower]

I know the Monty Python. That explains spam. What about spam makes it spammable? Nothing. Virtually anything can used as junk mail or can propagate unwanted messages. We could send images of a Dominion copper coin through the internet as spam e-mail to random mailboxes, or ask every user on facebook to be a friend of the pirate ship. Spammable has *absolutely* no meaning other than what we invent for it. Jesters, ambassadors, witches and so on might send unsolicited cards to other players, but playing a couple of menagerie isn't what I'd call spamming.

It's quite obvious though, that when someone says a card is spammable, nobody means "sending images of a Dominion copper coin through the internet", especially when we're using "spammable" in the context of actually playing the game. What makes spam spammable is that it can be repeated, which is why junk mail and unwanted messages can be propagated regardless of content. And honestly, no word has any meaning other than what we invent for it, that's how language works.

Moving back into the context of the game, however, spammable cards can be played repeatedly intrinsically (e.g. without +Action from villages). It's quite clear that while Jesters, Ambassadors, and Witches might do the equivalent of sending spam, they aren't in themselves capable of being played multiple times (compare a hand with 5 witches to a hand with 5 pearl divers).

[ChaosRed]

Sorry guys, but I equate "spam" in Dominion to coppers and curses, as in cheap, 0-cost material there's an abundance of and you usually don't want to digest, or invest in, unless of course, you are geared for a "spam deck" like Gardens. Repetition isn't the same as spam, low-cost, junky crap is more akin to what spam is.

"Spammable" isn't even a word, not very catchy and I'll stick with cantrip to mean a card that contains a +1 Action, +1 Card whereby the card is then judged on its additional capability besides the cantrip itself.

[ftl]

Words can have multiple meanings. Again, independently of Dominion, in the context of games in general, the verb "to spam" means something akin to "to repeat something mindlessly over and over". I don't think it has any special meaning in Dominion that it doesn't have in any other game...