Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]

Author Topic: Why's it called a cantrip?  (Read 31176 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

shraeye

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 690
  • Shuffle iT Username: shraeye
  • More Graph Theory please
  • Respect: +299
    • View Profile
Why's it called a cantrip?
« on: October 01, 2011, 04:02:52 pm »
0

So this has frustrated me as I read through strategy articles and posts by others.  What the heck is a cantrip?  And no, not the dominion-definition, I got that.  I'm trying to figure out why a card which gives extra action(s) and card(s) [[I frankly don't care about the minutiae of which cards are slightly more/less than an official cantrip]] would be given a name like cantrip.  Am I missing something obvious?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 04:14:19 pm »
0

I know it comes from Magic the Gathering, where cards that replace themselves are called cantrips. I think they got that from Dungeons and Dragons. I'm not sure where the history goes before that.

shraeye

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 690
  • Shuffle iT Username: shraeye
  • More Graph Theory please
  • Respect: +299
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 04:18:16 pm »
0

Ah, I'm super unfamiliar with Magic the Gathering, so that is a strong possibility.  I'd consider myself familiar (though possibly just below knowledgeable) with D and D, and I'm not sure what cantrip means in that setting.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 04:27:19 pm »
0

I'd consider myself familiar (though possibly just below knowledgeable) with D and D, and I'm not sure what cantrip means in that setting.
In 3rd edition, it's a 0-level Arcane spell.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

ChaosRed

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 387
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 04:27:48 pm »
0

A cantrip is a weak, novice spell. In D&D (they came along in 2nd edition I believe), they were 0-level spells that did minor things, (like send a whisper over a crowded room, or break a small stick from a distance).

Later in Magic it came to mean any Magic card that let you draw from your deck as part of its ability, staying card neutral.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 04:34:34 pm »
0

In English (not D&D specifically), a cantrip is a magic spell. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cantrip . According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantrip , in D&D and in Warhammer Fantasy a cantrip is specifically a weak and simple spell. In Magic the Gathering a cantrip is used to mean a card that lets you draw a card as part of its effect; which brings us to the Dominion meaning, which is pretty similar.

The meaning change which doesn't quite make as much sense is the one from D&D to MTG; I would guess that in MTG, cards that were self-replacing were typically "weak and simple spells".
Logged

rod-

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 05:10:16 pm »
0

The meaning change which doesn't quite make as much sense is the one from D&D to MTG; I would guess that in MTG, cards that were self-replacing were typically "weak and simple spells".
It's this.  The original 'cantrip' cards in MTG were attempts to create weak effects that were still worth playing.  In order to make these effects worth playing, they needed to be self-replacing, because cards in hand is at least as important a resource in magic as in dominion.  Effects like "look at your opponent's hand" are not powerful enough to be worth a card, but "look at your opponent's hand.  draw a card" are (rarely).
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 05:47:50 pm »
0

I do not know the exact derivation but I suspect that a D&D cantrip spell did not cost any capability to use. Normally the wizard could only cast a certain number of spells each day but the cantrips did not count towards that limit. A MtG cantrip spell would be cast with a new card drawn to replace it, so it did not cost any significant capability to use. This has been carried over to Dominion as +1 card/+1 action acts similarly to the drawing mechanic of the MtG cantrip.

I don't think this name is especially helpful to anyone without a MtG background. Unfortunately nobody has come up with better terminology.
Logged

rrenaud

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Uncivilized Barbarian of Statistics
  • Respect: +1197
    • View Profile
    • CouncilRoom
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2011, 07:22:24 pm »
0

Spammable action and self replacing action are both used sometimes.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2011, 08:36:02 pm »
0

Having put some deep thought into the matter (maybe) I suggest that we actually start calling them "serial" actions. This would even make sense alongside "terminal" actions.
Logged

rrenaud

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Uncivilized Barbarian of Statistics
  • Respect: +1197
    • View Profile
    • CouncilRoom
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2011, 08:46:20 pm »
0

(This is mostly facetious, I think serial makes sense if you can get people to adopt it).

Logged

cayvie

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • old
  • Respect: +235
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 06:59:47 pm »
0

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.
Logged
18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

she/her

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2011, 07:36:35 pm »
0

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.
In D&D cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 887
  • Respect: +1675
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2011, 08:20:31 pm »
0

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.
In D&D cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.

Using my google-fu I see that 'cantrip' is a very old Scottish word meaning a trick or a small bit of magic.  Therefore it's very unlikely that it was invented by the designers of D&D or Magic: The Gathering.  Havins said that, I think you can see why both of those games would use it quite independent of the other, just as they both use words like 'golem,' 'necromancer' and 'sorcery.'

If one uses 'cantrip' for a Dominion card, it would seem a nod to the Magic: The Gathering sense of the word, meaning a card that replaces itself.  Personally I don't think it fits, as sorcery isn't a central theme to Dominion, but then again neither is canned meat product ('spammable').
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2011, 09:15:52 pm »
0

Personally I don't think it fits, as sorcery isn't a central theme to Dominion,

Well, it's not about the 'sorcery' meaning - it's about the 'card that replaces itself' meaning. In that sense, it fits very well - and the theme of the cards isn't necessarily relevant.

Quote
but then again neither is canned meat product ('spammable').

Oh, come on. The meat product isn't even remotely close to being the predominant use use of the word "spam" anymore.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 10:05:58 pm »
0

Spammable doesn't have an intrinsic meaning anyway. What property does a message have that means it can or can't be sent unsolicited across the internet?
Logged

rrenaud

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Uncivilized Barbarian of Statistics
  • Respect: +1197
    • View Profile
    • CouncilRoom
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2011, 12:33:30 am »
0

You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

You can play a spammable card without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 887
  • Respect: +1675
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2011, 02:37:13 am »
0

Personally I don't think it fits, as sorcery isn't a central theme to Dominion,

Well, it's not about the 'sorcery' meaning

"Cantrip" made sense in Magic both thematically AND in game-play.  Most cards are a spell of some sort, so it makes sense to have a card with a small effect be named with a word that means a small bit of magical trickery.  It's quite a good name, really.  Kudos to whoever coined its MtG usage.

As you infer, to use the word in Dominion we reference the in-game effect rather than the thematic meaning.  But is the theme of Dominion so nebulous that we can't come up with something better than a ripoff from another game or a term that many associate with p e n 1 s pills and 419 scams?

You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

Indeed many people's machines are sending spam as we speak without them thinking one ms about it. :)


Of the terms I've heard so far, I like "serial" the best.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 02:41:54 am by Cave-o-sapien »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2011, 03:47:39 am »
0

I don't have my old Duelist magazines with me, but I believe that Magic had cantrips before D&D did; 3rd edition D&D came out in like 2000, while the original cantrips came out in the Ice Age magic expansion, which I believe was in 1995.

edit - I'm well aware that D&D is older than that, but I don't remember the word "cantrip" in earlier editions.
In D&D cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.

Using my google-fu I see that 'cantrip' is a very old Scottish word meaning a trick or a small bit of magic.  Therefore it's very unlikely that it was invented by the designers of D&D or Magic: The Gathering.  Havins said that, I think you can see why both of those games would use it quite independent of the other, just as they both use words like 'golem,' 'necromancer' and 'sorcery.'
Since you quoted my post, it looks like you're responding to me, when in fact you neither refute, agree with, or otherwise interact with my correct assertion that, in D&D, cantrips go back to Unearthed Arcana in 1985.

That's the internet for you!

Also Magic got the term from D&D. I know this because the people who work on Magic have said it flat out, starting with the people who worked on Ice Age, where they introduced cantrips. So no, not like, well not like necromancer and sorcery. Golem was a poor example since Magic's Golems started out as D&D Golems rather than Jewish ones.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2011, 04:01:19 am »
0

Quote
or a term that many associate with p e n 1 s pills and 419 scams?

'spam', at least, has taken root in gaming as a whole, not just Dominion, meaning any sort of repetitive action. I've heard it in Super Smash Brothers and in other fighting games and Starcraft and now Dominion. Seems like a futile and somewhat pointless effort to make up a new word to replace it for Dominion only.
Logged

Anon79

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 264
  • Respect: +39
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2011, 04:50:02 am »
0

You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

You can play a spammable card without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.
Reminds me of the game where my (rather new) opponent opened his turn spamming Farming Villages, Worker's Villages and Laboratories, paused, then bought a copper when he realised the only treasure left in his deck was a single Silver. (Courtesy of Forge.) He then typed something to the effect of "Lol I screwed myself." I advised that he can do Lab + Enhanced Village = Platinum, but I think he didn't see the reply until 2 turns later. Cost him the game too.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110928-224113-e3efc297.html
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2011, 07:20:15 am »
0

Quote
You can send spam without thinking about it.  You'll (almost) never be worse off.

Yes but since we're going back to the derivation of words, what property does spam have that makes it 'spammable'? Explaining the property that Dominion cards have that makes them spammable, without explaining what property spam has that makes it spammable, is only a half answer. Surely anything and everything can be sent as an unsolicited message, whether it's a Monty Python script or the US constitution?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 11:10:12 am by DG »
Logged

Kuildeous

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3840
  • Respect: +2219
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2011, 10:19:47 am »
0

I typically call them "zero-sum" cards because your hand count and action count remain the same after playing the card. I am sad that the term has never caught on.

Note that this means that while I consider Pearl Diver, Spy, and Familiar to be in this category, I do not consider Village or its ilk to be in the category. This also means that Wishing Well conditionally is zero sum.


It's at least faster than saying, "You lose nothing by buying this card, unless you have terminal actions that draw cards.
Logged
A man has no signature

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 887
  • Respect: +1675
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2011, 11:07:44 am »
0

Also Magic got the term from D&D. I know this because the people who work on Magic have said it flat out, starting with the people who worked on Ice Age, where they introduced cantrips.

I like my romanticized notion of some neck-bearded Magic player, in his stained T-shirt at some dingy game store in a strip mall, independently coming up with the term "cantrip" better than your pesky factual history.

Golem was a poor example since Magic's Golems started out as D&D Golems rather than Jewish ones.

I'm always getting my Golems mixed up.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2011, 11:13:47 am »
0

We have a word with a clear etymology that makes perfect sense in this context, and people know what it means. There is no value whatsoever in searching for some different competing term to attempt to proliferate in its place.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2011, 11:36:30 am »
0

I prefer calling +1 Card/+1 Action cards cantrips as opposed to spammable because they already mean different things.  Namely, spammable is a wider set, including cards such as Village and Laboratory that you can play over and over and over (like cantrips) but which provide *additional* +Card/+Action benefits.  Cantrip is a perfectly useful word for describing cards which don't take up a Action/spot in hand but also don't give you any extra Actions or cards.

And it doesn't bother me that we're using a term stolen from Magic, especially given Dominion's provenance.  I guess "serial" would work too, but why bother?
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 887
  • Respect: +1675
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2011, 11:56:46 am »
0

We have a word with a clear etymology that makes perfect sense in this context, and people know what it means.

I'm smiling because I'm honestly not sure which word you're talking about here. 
Logged

barsooma

  • Guest
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2011, 12:02:54 pm »
0

Spam/spammable is a far better term.

It describes the effect perfectly and is already in widespread use in the WOW and wider video game community (conservatively 1000 times larger than the Dominion community).

http://www.diablowiki.net/Spammable
Logged

rrenaud

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Uncivilized Barbarian of Statistics
  • Respect: +1197
    • View Profile
    • CouncilRoom
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2011, 12:20:12 pm »
0

Heh.  We start with a blog, and then we think, hey this isn't flexible enough, so we make a forum.

Then we get a forum, and we think, hey, this isn't flexible enough, how about a wiki ;)

If some (one or many) want to write a comprehensive dominion lingo guide (including competing and possibly personally disliked terms that people actually use), I'll happily front page it.
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 887
  • Respect: +1675
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2011, 12:49:08 pm »
0

Spam/spammable is a far better term.

It describes the effect perfectly and is already in widespread use in the WOW and wider video game community (conservatively 1000 times larger than the Dominion community).

http://www.diablowiki.net/Spammable

So it looks it's the Magic players vs. the WoW players in a duel/pvp to decide the issue.  Truly a showdown for the ages.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2011, 01:18:40 pm »
0

Spam/spammable is a far better term.

It describes the effect perfectly and is already in widespread use in the WOW and wider video game community (conservatively 1000 times larger than the Dominion community).

http://www.diablowiki.net/Spammable

No, no, no.  All cantrips are spammable, but not all spammable cards are cantrips.  If you want a term specifically for cards that give exactly +1 Card and +1 Action, spammable is a bad choice, because it applies to cards that do more than that as well.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

ChaosRed

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 387
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2011, 01:58:08 pm »
0

For what its worth, I always thought a cantrip in Dominion was specifically +1 Action, +1 Card, meaning it does really nothing at all, the focus is then on the additional ability. For example Great Hall is a cantrip that gives you +1VP. Caravan is a cantrip, with a duration effect, etc. etc. Also I think the term, "cantrip" is perfect. Who cares if it used by other games in other contexts? That's not uncommon in games at all.

Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2011, 02:06:37 pm »
0

Quote
I guess "serial" would work too, but why bother?

Because all the other words, to be honest, are awful.

Quote
Who cares if it used by other games in other contexts?

It isn't a problem that it's used elsewhere. The problem is that it isn't used anywhere else except by a geeky community of collectable card game players. We might as well ask a Star Trek fan what the Klingon word for a chain reaction in a Dilithium crystal chamber is called and use that word. Terminal is a good name for a type of card since we all have an idea what a terminal is. The dictionary meaning and common meaning of terminal also loosely fit how terminal Dominion cards behave.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2011, 02:37:32 pm »
0

So the community of people who discuss Dominion strategy with such frequency that they need specialized jargon is... not geeky? ;)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would link the XKCD about the futility of introducing competing standards alongside already established standards, but rrenaud already did. It's not as if any of these terms is so self-evident that it would alleviate the need for the audience to already be familiar with the jargon.
Logged

barsooma

  • Guest
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2011, 03:14:40 pm »
0

So the community of people who discuss Dominion strategy with such frequency that they need specialized jargon is... not geeky? ;)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would link the XKCD about the futility of introducing competing standards alongside already established standards, but rrenaud already did. It's not as if any of these terms is so self-evident that it would alleviate the need for the audience to already be familiar with the jargon.

Well sure if it's only going to be used on this board we can call it anything.. how about a splangle? I like the sound of that.

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.
Logged

greatexpectations

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1097
  • Respect: +1067
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2011, 03:24:15 pm »
0

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.

if they are bothering to frequent these forums they have plenty of dominion language to learn anyway.  cantrip is nothing compared to many of the other terms tossed around here. 
Logged
momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 887
  • Respect: +1675
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2011, 03:36:37 pm »
0

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.

Which of those terms would you use when teaching the game to your parents?  I'm not saying that should be the criterion for choosing a term, but if we want an outsider to understand it, I think "chainable" is the only one that makes sense.  But that word casts a much wider net than "cantrip" does. 

For what its worth, I always thought a cantrip in Dominion was specifically +1 Action, +1 Card, meaning it does really nothing at all, the focus is then on the additional ability. For example Great Hall is a cantrip that gives you +1VP. Caravan is a cantrip, with a duration effect, etc. etc.

I appreciate the distinction you are trying to draw between spammable/chainable and cantrip, but it seems like a very fuzzy divide.  A Laboratory is a cantrip that gives you an extra card.  A Village is a cantrip that gives you an extra action.  A Market is a cantrip that gives you an extra buy and an extra coin.  A Grand Market is a cantrip with an extra buy and 2 extra coin ...   and pretty soon we're fairly far away from the Magic meaning which (if I understand people correctly) was a somewhat crappy card that replaced itself.

Furthermore, the effect of a card replacing itself in Magic was a fairly novel concept at the time; in Dominion drawing a card and getting an action are two of the core benefits a card can provide. 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 03:41:57 pm by Cave-o-sapien »
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2011, 03:59:39 pm »
0

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.
Because their guess will not generally be correct, and "cantrip" is already in use. If "splangle" were already common usage instead, that would be fine. Proposing to replace the existing jargon with new jargon succeeds only in adding a new bit of redundant jargon to muddle the picture since people will keep using the old terminology that wasn't broken to begin with.
Logged

barsooma

  • Guest
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2011, 04:04:14 pm »
0

But why not use a word that an outsider could reasonably guess the meaning of like serial, chainable or spamable.
Because their guess will not generally be correct, and "cantrip" is already in use. If "splangle" were already common usage instead, that would be fine. Proposing to replace the existing jargon with new jargon succeeds only in adding a new bit of redundant jargon to muddle the picture since people will keep using the old terminology that wasn't broken to begin with.

Really I'm not sure why this debate exists in the first place.. is there really so much strategic discussion centered around these cards that they even need a name?
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +937
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2011, 04:12:21 pm »
0

Really I'm not sure why this debate exists in the first place.. is there really so much strategic discussion centered around these cards that they even need a name?

Well, yes, actually.  Cantrips are distinct from other action cards -- even other non-terminals -- for being harmlessly insertable into many different types of engines.  An awful lot of Dominion strategy discussion involves talk about how engines will choke on green, or curses, or treasures, etc.  But most engines don't choke at all on cantrips, which makes them good engine kickers and/or targets for three-pile endings.

It's often not sufficient merely to say "non-terminals," too.  Because while any kind of non-terminal can augment at Library engine, it's the non-terminals that don't replace themselves that enable the Libraries to draw more cards.  In other engines, cards like Festival and Lighthouse are good for, say, Minion engines in moderation but space out the Minions too much in excess -- whereas cantrips may supplement a Minion deck without limit.

So not only do we need a term for the concept of a cantrip, we could use one for "non-drawing non-terminal," too.

Anyway, this, to me, is the best reason not to try to be too strict about the term "cantrip" by arbitrarily excluding Village and Laboratory from the group, just because they offer the wrong kind of supplemental benefit.  Because in practical discussions of actual Dominion strategy, it's almost never useful to talk about cantrips as a group excluding Villages and Laboratories.  Offhand, I can't even think of a single example of such a real-world situation.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 04:16:59 pm by rinkworks »
Logged

Epoch

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 421
  • Respect: +38
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2011, 04:53:44 pm »
0

Anyway, this, to me, is the best reason not to try to be too strict about the term "cantrip" by arbitrarily excluding Village and Laboratory from the group, just because they offer the wrong kind of supplemental benefit.  Because in practical discussions of actual Dominion strategy, it's almost never useful to talk about cantrips as a group excluding Villages and Laboratories.  Offhand, I can't even think of a single example of such a real-world situation.

The major reason why you'd want to talk about "cantrips as opposed to villages" is that you'd be talking about situations where cantrips aren't good enough.  Like, where you actually specifically need villages, not just cantrips.  And there are tons of those situations, and we commonly discuss them.

I guess that the other reason to talk about "cantrips as opposed to villages" is that you're talking about, say, delivering a payload with cantrips and the payload of "one more action" isn't very useful unless you have terminals, but I agree, we don't actually in practice need to talk about that much.

It would be the same with "cantrips as opposed to labs," though I think that again in practice it doesn't come up that much.  You'd be talking about the situations where you need the extra drawing power of labs, not merely the self-replacement of cantrips.  I've seen this come up a bit in the discussion of engines -- like, you can't have a "Grand Market Engine" or a "Conspirator Engine," because they can't draw a payload reliably -- they are their own payload, of course, and good for that.  Not that I want to get into a discussion of whether that point of view is correct on this thread, so please let's done.  Just that it's come up in real world discussions before.

So what are the broad categories of cards we might want to talk about?

Victory cards
Action cards
Action-Duration cards
Treasure cards
Curses
Kingdom cards
Terminal Actions
Non-terminal, non-replacing Actions
Cantrips
Villages
Labs
Smithies (terminal card-drawers)

Anything else?  Obviously, some of those categories subsume others.
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +937
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2011, 11:23:20 pm »
0

Anyway, this, to me, is the best reason not to try to be too strict about the term "cantrip" by arbitrarily excluding Village and Laboratory from the group, just because they offer the wrong kind of supplemental benefit.  Because in practical discussions of actual Dominion strategy, it's almost never useful to talk about cantrips as a group excluding Villages and Laboratories.  Offhand, I can't even think of a single example of such a real-world situation.

The major reason why you'd want to talk about "cantrips as opposed to villages" is that you'd be talking about situations where cantrips aren't good enough.  Like, where you actually specifically need villages, not just cantrips.  And there are tons of those situations, and we commonly discuss them.

Yes, but then you're really just talking about "villages," and the only reason -- if any -- to talk about "cantrips other than villages" is to clarify that it's what you're NOT talking about.  That surely doesn't count.

Quote
So what are the broad categories of cards we might want to talk about?

Money-giving actions, important in discussions of countering Thief and especially Pirate Ship.  They're also particularly good supplements to Minion engines.

I already mentioned "non-drawing non-terminals," good companions for Library and Watchtower.

Vanilla cards, though that comes up more in conversation about card design than strategy.

Gainers, like Workshop/Ironworks/Horn of Plenty -- cards that offer a +Buy substitute, which is sometimes important as a category.

Dual-type cards, which make a lot of interesting combos possible, such as with Tribute, Transmute, and Ironworks.  An interesting point here -- mirroring the point I made about including villages and labs in the "cantrip" category for practical convenience -- is that "action/victory" is a dual-type card but "action/attack" is not.  I guess "attack" is more of a subtype?  But I'm not sure "reaction" is a subtype, and yet "action/reaction" doesn't count either, even though both those types have their own dedicated colors.  Again, it's a tug-of-war between literal truth and practical usefulness within a discussion of Dominion rules and strategy.

Attacks are sometimes nice to subdivide into categories like cursing attacks, hand-reduction attacks, deck-inspection attacks, and so on.

I guess most of these categories of cards have terms, if unwieldy ones in some cases.  But a few are still missing terminology that would be helpful to have.
Logged

Epoch

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 421
  • Respect: +38
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2011, 02:28:04 pm »
0

Yes, but then you're really just talking about "villages," and the only reason -- if any -- to talk about "cantrips other than villages" is to clarify that it's what you're NOT talking about.  That surely doesn't count.

Doesn't it?  What are the criteria for "counting"?

I already mentioned "non-drawing non-terminals," good companions for Library and Watchtower.

I called those "Non-terminal, non-replacing Actions."
Logged

Kuildeous

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3840
  • Respect: +2219
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2011, 03:20:02 pm »
0

Well, yes, actually.  Cantrips are distinct from other action cards -- even other non-terminals -- for being harmlessly insertable into many different types of engines.  An awful lot of Dominion strategy discussion involves talk about how engines will choke on green, or curses, or treasures, etc.  But most engines don't choke at all on cantrips, which makes them good engine kickers and/or targets for three-pile endings.

Okay, the official word should be "lube," not so much because it's accurate but because the horrified looks from new players would just be priceless.
Logged
A man has no signature

Zaphod

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
  • Do you know where your towel is?
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2011, 07:19:54 pm »
0

Spammable doesn't have an intrinsic meaning anyway. What property does a message have that means it can or can't be sent unsolicited across the internet?

I think it goes something like this.

We refer to cards as "spammable" because you can play several of them in one turn.  The term is derived from internet spam, which is sent in bulk.  Several sources (including the Internet Society) credit the internet term's etymology to the classic Monty Python routine about a restaurant where everything on the menu includes Spam; the word "Spam" is sung repeatedly in the background.  The sketch came about in part because Spam was ubiquitous in the UK, because of American presence there during WW II combined with the fact that Spam was among the few meats not rationed during that period.  As a result, Brits are quite tired of the stuff.

So, what do the lunch meat, the sketch, the internet term and the gaming term have in common?  They all refer to something that is done, or available, in bulk.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2011, 07:40:45 pm »
0

I know the Monty Python. That explains spam. What about spam makes it spammable? Nothing. Virtually anything can used as junk mail or can propagate unwanted messages. We could send images of a Dominion copper coin through the internet as spam e-mail to random mailboxes, or ask every user on facebook to be a friend of the pirate ship. Spammable has *absolutely* no meaning other than what we invent for it. Jesters, ambassadors, witches and so on might send unsolicited cards to other players, but playing a couple of menagerie isn't what I'd call spamming.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2011, 07:51:13 pm »
0

What about spam makes it spammable? Nothing.

Repetition is what makes something "spammable". This isn't a dominion term specifically, nor is it limited to junk mail or unsolicited messages.
Logged

biopower

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2011, 07:57:29 pm »
0

I know the Monty Python. That explains spam. What about spam makes it spammable? Nothing. Virtually anything can used as junk mail or can propagate unwanted messages. We could send images of a Dominion copper coin through the internet as spam e-mail to random mailboxes, or ask every user on facebook to be a friend of the pirate ship. Spammable has *absolutely* no meaning other than what we invent for it. Jesters, ambassadors, witches and so on might send unsolicited cards to other players, but playing a couple of menagerie isn't what I'd call spamming.

It's quite obvious though, that when someone says a card is spammable, nobody means "sending images of a Dominion copper coin through the internet", especially when we're using "spammable" in the context of actually playing the game. What makes spam spammable is that it can be repeated, which is why junk mail and unwanted messages can be propagated regardless of content. And honestly, no word has any meaning other than what we invent for it, that's how language works.

Moving back into the context of the game, however, spammable cards can be played repeatedly intrinsically (e.g. without +Action from villages). It's quite clear that while Jesters, Ambassadors, and Witches might do the equivalent of sending spam, they aren't in themselves capable of being played multiple times (compare a hand with 5 witches to a hand with 5 pearl divers).
Logged

ChaosRed

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 387
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2011, 08:00:23 pm »
0

Sorry guys, but I equate "spam" in Dominion to coppers and curses, as in cheap, 0-cost material there's an abundance of and you usually don't want to digest, or invest in, unless of course, you are geared for a "spam deck" like Gardens. Repetition isn't the same as spam, low-cost, junky crap is more akin to what spam is.

"Spammable" isn't even a word, not very catchy and I'll stick with cantrip to mean a card that contains a +1 Action, +1 Card whereby the card is then judged on its additional capability besides the cantrip itself.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2011, 08:09:52 pm »
0

Words can have multiple meanings. Again, independently of Dominion, in the context of games in general, the verb "to spam" means something akin to "to repeat something mindlessly over and over". I don't think it has any special meaning in Dominion that it doesn't have in any other game...
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2011, 09:05:00 pm »
0

Quote
Repetition is what makes something "spammable"

That's the Dominion interpretation that you've worked backwards. If we start from unsolicited mail, then that typically isn't repeated. Spam mail is unwanted mail sent typically sent to a wide range of unknown recipients who never asked for it. An item of spam can have single issue with massive distribution. A recipient of spam may see many examples of it that are all different and not repeated.

I cannot think of any context other than Dominion in which I have heard the word spammable.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:07:07 pm by DG »
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +937
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2011, 09:07:19 pm »
0

Spam email came to be called spam because it's stuff that's "spammed," as in, mindlessly sent out everywhere en masse.  It's an odd word, because that meaning of it actually derives from Monty Python.  The "spam spam spam" routine -- buncha dudes repeating something over and over again.  The focus is on the sending of it, which is repeated, not on a recipient receiving it, which may or may not be receiving multiple copies.

"Spammable" is at least as legitimate a word as the verb form, which is what birthed the noun -- not the other way around!  It's probably not a great word to describe playing lots of copies of an actually useful Dominion card, but when I read someone say "spammable" in here the first time, I knew exactly what it meant.

Edit:  Wikipedia
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:11:48 pm by rinkworks »
Logged

ChaosRed

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 387
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2011, 11:48:20 pm »
0

Spam email came to be called spam because it's stuff that's "spammed," as in, mindlessly sent out everywhere en masse.  It's an odd word, because that meaning of it actually derives from Monty Python.  The "spam spam spam" routine -- buncha dudes repeating something over and over again.  The focus is on the sending of it, which is repeated, not on a recipient receiving it, which may or may not be receiving multiple copies.

No, it was called spam because it was cheap, awful product to digest. Mass produced  to be sure, but an email that's proliferated to a lot of people that you enjoy (say email from your favorite sports team) isn't dubbed spam. Spam is junk, it has nothing to do with how much it can proliferate.

Quote
"Spammable" is at least as legitimate a word as the verb form, which is what birthed the noun -- not the other way around!  It's probably not a great word to describe playing lots of copies of an actually useful Dominion card, but when I read someone say "spammable" in here the first time, I knew exactly what it meant.

No, spammable is jargon. At least "spam" is a brand name luncheon meat of BAD meat product (particularly consumed in England where canned meat is *still* somewhat acceptable).

Spammable isn't a real word, its gaming jargon, which doesn't mean you can't use it, but it does explain why I disliked the term. Spammable usually refers to abilities in a game that are so mindless, you can endlessly click them without worry of context or tactic.  Haste in City of Heroes was a "spammable" power that you put on auto-attack, because at any point in a fight it was useful, so you can could click it without context or worry. If you had the right combos, Haste actually became "perma spam", a dumb, mindless power that was always on and you never had to worry about.

Even gaming powers that have long recharges can be dubbed "spammable", in fact many are. When you are told to spam powers in WOW that cripple or slow down opponents, it doesn't matter that these powers don't pop up every second (some pop up every 15 seconds). You spam them because they are junk powers, you don't need to think about, because they are useful in any PVP match, in any context. Powers like SAP are not 'spammable' because they require pre-requisites or particular context to fire, despite the fact they propagate (or recharge) faster than other powers that are dubbed "spammable". You are taught to spam powers as a fighter that cripple opponents, which means the moment it recharges, hit it without even thinking about it. This is why its not a good term for Dominion, a Lab might have +actions, but you often have to think when is the best time to play it for a particular hand. If you know you have no +buy and you are at 8 already and you know there's one gold left in your last 3 before a reshuffle, you have to think about NOT playing it. That's not a spammable power, by normal gaming definition.

I really feel it's a completely inappropriate to describe a cantrip, which is a much more elegant term, because it refers to a lighter cast of little significance and difficulty. Spam is junk, stupid junk  you don't care about. The joke in the Monty Python sketch is that the dumb restaurant served an abundance of it, even though its awful. The term was applied to unwanted, useless email back in the days of Pine...and it meant the email was unsolicited and junk. Meanwhile other email might have been pervasive, but if it was well-received, or useful it wasn't dubbed as spam.

Even in your own link, the emphasis is on junk, and being unsolicited. Bulk mail, you actually want isn't spam.

It doesn't describe the situation nearly as well as a cantrip.

It's a silly thing to argue (its becoming like the spam sketch itself), so I'll withdraw from this thread.

Bottom line: Spam as a descriptor sucks, stick with cantrip, it works much better. Copper and Curses are spam. A Lab isn't.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2011, 03:12:52 am »
0

I don't agree with your definition that "to spam" is only about being junk. The Wiktionary http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spam , its definied (next to actually sending spam as)
Quote
    To relentlessly attack an enemy with a spell or ability.


Quote
Copper and Curses are spam. A Lab isn't.
Nobody says a Lab is spam. It's spammable. Curses are spam. They are not spammable. They are not even playable...
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2011, 06:24:47 am »
0

That's the Dominion interpretation that you've worked backwards.

No, at best it's the Super Smash Brothers interpretation that I've worked backwards from. I've played that game far more than Dominion. It sticks out in my mind because someone on the SSBB forums at one point posted a parody of "Prince of Bel Air" in which the refrain was something like "just keep spamming Marth's forward-air." And oh god Samus's range-spam is crazy-good...

Or other games. I'm 99% sure I've heard World of Warcraft gamers use the term. I've definitely heard it among Starcrafters, though it was in the context of "don't just spam buttons to raise your actions-per-minute, make every click count." and not about strategic choices.

It's not just a Dominion term; I think it's pretty widespread in gaming, though maybe not as widespread in board games as in e-gaming? Dunno. I never really separated those cultures too much because most people I know who's are in one are in the other. Didn't realize the term hadn't spread there, especially since it came up here in this thread in Dominion (and I didn't even bring it up myself). 

Quote
I really feel it's a completely inappropriate to describe a cantrip, which is a much more elegant term, because it refers to a lighter cast of little significance and difficulty.

Sure, I wasn't claiming that 'spammable' should replace 'cantrip' or anything. I like 'cantrip'.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 06:31:07 am by ftl »
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +937
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2011, 09:38:55 am »
0

Spam email came to be called spam because it's stuff that's "spammed," as in, mindlessly sent out everywhere en masse.  It's an odd word, because that meaning of it actually derives from Monty Python.  The "spam spam spam" routine -- buncha dudes repeating something over and over again.  The focus is on the sending of it, which is repeated, not on a recipient receiving it, which may or may not be receiving multiple copies.

No, it was called spam because it was cheap, awful product to digest. Mass produced  to be sure, but an email that's proliferated to a lot of people that you enjoy (say email from your favorite sports team) isn't dubbed spam. Spam is junk, it has nothing to do with how much it can proliferate.

There's nothing else to say here, except that you're wrong.  I supplied a reference.  Where's yours?  Here's another:

Quote
There were several thousand such newsgroups, and each one got the ad.  Quickly people identified it as "spam" and the word caught on. Future multiple postings soon got the appelation. Some people also applied it to individual unwanted ads that weren't posted again and again, though generally it was associated with the massive flood of the same message. It turns out, however, that the term had been in use for some time before the famous green card flood.
...
My research shows the term goes back to the late 1980s and the "MUD" community. . . . The term spamming got used to apply to a few different behaviours. One was to flood the computer with so much data as to crash it. Another was to "spam the database" by having a program create a huge number of objects, rather then creating them by hand. And the term was sometimes used to mean simply flooding a chat session with a bunch of text inserted by a program (commonly called a "bot" today) or just by inserting a file instead of your own real time typing output.

Note two things:  (1) the consistent emphasis on repetition, and (2) the verb came first, or at the very least hand-in-hand with the noun form as meaning "the product of spamming."

You go on to say how spam is typically* junk and therefore makes the term unsuited to Dominion cantrips.  But I already conceded to that point when I said, "It's probably not a great word to describe playing lots of copies of an actually useful Dominion card."

(*Or "always," if you prefer.  I'd say "typically," because I'd call the Encyclopedia Britannica spam if it were mass mailed, but I'm not picky on this point.)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 09:43:50 am by rinkworks »
Logged

ChaosRed

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 387
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2011, 11:27:04 am »
0

rinkworks, I respect you way too much to continue debating this point, much further. Spam is a BRAND NAME. That's its origin. It goes back to rationing and World War, where canned protein was quite useful. To turn that into a verb makes the word jargon. Your own "Wikitionary" link, essentially admits the term is jargon.

Go to a dictionary, find "spammable"...it comes up with nothing...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spammable

That's because its jargon, not really a word.

Spam was, and always has been associated as poverty food. The term applied to electronic mail was developed decades later and SPECIFICALLY refers to unwanted, junky content, something you were stuck with, but didn't really want, just like the real spam in the days of bomb shelters.

But you know, I am just noob, and a nerdy gamer, who has seen gamer jargon come and go. Jargon in some ways is organic and personal. Some people repeat the "cool story bro" meme, others kinda sneer at it. It's how gaming jargon goes. Cantrip matches better for me, I'll use it, you like "spammable", you should use it.

My apologies I belabored the point, most especially since my experience with this game is just six weeks old. So point conceded my friend, your advice on this forum is too valuable to me to continue to antagonize you. Cheers.

Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2011, 11:48:01 am »
0

It's probably worth noting that during the rationing of world war II there wasn't such a thing as junk food. All food was good food. Rationing continued for a surprisingly long time after the war ended as well, although spam was certainly considered low quality by the 1970s.
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +937
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Why's it called a cantrip?
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2011, 12:57:17 pm »
0

To turn that into a verb makes the word jargon. Your own "Wikitionary" link, essentially admits the term is jargon.

Go to a dictionary, find "spammable"...it comes up with nothing...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spammable

That's because its jargon, not really a word.

That same reference also lists "spam" to refer to junk email as both a noun and a verb.  Does that make those uses not jargon?  Anyway, I'm not sure that "words" and "jargon" are mutually exclusive, or that vocabulary that qualifies as "jargon" is necessarily subjective and personal.  "Port" and "starboard" are sailing jargon; they're legitimate English words, and their meanings are fixed and specific.  Jargon just means "the language, especially the vocabulary, peculiar to a particular trade, profession, or group."  It's not (necessarily) non-standard English; rather, words that are usually only used by, or which derived from, a specialized group.  You may argue that "spam" is computing jargon and/or gamer's jargon, but the verdict on that classification says nothing about its legitimacy or specificity as an English word.  Perhaps you mean "slang," but none of the cited resources on dictionary.com cite any of the modern definitions as slang, and dictionaries (most of which I'm not very fond of) are usually pretty good about that.

We're now up to three references (the third being your own dictionary.com) that specify what the verb form of "spam" means -- and, for that matter, the noun form as being the product of spamming, not "junk" in general -- and thereby contradict your claim that "Spam is junk, it has nothing to do with how much it can proliferate."  It has everything to do with how much it can proliferate, as every resource cited thus far has said.  I'm boggled and frustrated that you're still insisting otherwise.

As for "spammable," if it helps I'll withdraw my claim that it's "at least as legitimate" as the verb form.  Still, even as mere slang, its definition is clear and logical, given the fact of the verb form.  Lots of legitimate verb derivatives, by the way, are missing from abridged dictionaries, particular -er and -ers.  Similarly, you can often find -able adjectives without their equally legitimate -ably adverbs and -ability nouns; ditto with -y adjectives missing their -ily and -iness counterparts.  (Often -ier and -iest, too, but for some reason the rules of English decree that not every adjective's -ier and -iest forms are "correct.")
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]
 

Page created in 0.081 seconds with 20 queries.