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[teasel]

i need to vent... industrialization in echoes game is fucking stupid,you start spamming it and all the domain achievements introduced with echoes falls in your lap automaticaly,therefore getting you 3-4 achievements with a single card,it's incredibly stuuuuuuuuuuuuupid and i want to choke my opponent everytime he starts doing it,heck i've seen people winning a game with 5 domain achievements and just 2 age one

[popsofctown]

Pretty sure I beat you yesterday with Industrialization with 6 special achievements and 1 age achievement.

Unless that was someone else?

[teasel]

yep yep and i made this thread in frustation

hulk smash!

[rrenaud]

Don't blame the players.  If it's brokenly good, it's the designers/play testers fault.

[Awaclus]

Don't blame the players.  If it's brokenly good, it's the designers/play testers fault.

I don't think "avoiding brokenly good cards" has been the top priority of the designer, being that half the cards are ridiculously powerful.

[popsofctown]

How do you define "powerful"?

[Awaclus]

How do you define "powerful"?

Having, or capable of exerting power, potency or influence.

[theory]

Industrialization is my vote for the most-important-card-to-draw in the base game, either for you to snowball with or to deny to your opponent.  But whatever, it makes the game more interesting.

[eyhung]

Actually, I feel Industrialization is even more important/broken in the expansion game with the new drawing rules, with echoes and bonuses and all sorts of special achievements that can be obtained with it.  All you need to do is to make sure you'd be drawing and tucking echoes cards by holding at least one base card and no echoes cards.  It is very easy to acquire HERITAGE, WEALTH, HISTORY this way (along with MONUMENT and SUPREMACY).  I think an easy nerf given the new drawing rules is to reword the first dogma as :

"Draw a [6] for every two factories on your board.  Then tuck all cards drawn." 

[timchen]

I don't think industrialization is particularly broken in the base game. You need 6+ factories to make it worthwhile, and very often at that stage of the game there are other higher priorities than increasing your icons.

[popsofctown]

Industrialization is terrible in the base game.

[teasel]

Actually, I feel Industrialization is even more important/broken in the expansion game with the new drawing rules, with echoes and bonuses and all sorts of special achievements that can be obtained with it.  All you need to do is to make sure you'd be drawing and tucking echoes cards by holding at least one base card and no echoes cards.  It is very easy to acquire HERITAGE, WEALTH, HISTORY this way (along with MONUMENT and SUPREMACY).  I think an easy nerf given the new drawing rules is to reword the first dogma as :

"Draw a [6] for every two factories on your board.  Then tuck all cards drawn."

yep that's the point,though to be fair it's not like the expansion doesn't have it's fair share of industrialization like card,there is loom,nylon and rubber,still it's a really frustating way to lose the game and one that is hard to deal with as most of the card that would deal with such a situation are "I Demand" card to begin with

[AJD]

Industrialization is terrible in the base game.

It can be a great way of getting the tuck-six-cards achievement, though.

[popsofctown]

Industrialization is terrible in the base game.

It can be a great way of getting the tuck-six-cards achievement, though.

Monumental Industrialization is much more common at low level play than it it at high level play.  Just a pattern I observed as I moved up the ranks.  Stronger players are more likely to go for Monumental Currency and Monumental Reformation, rendering the achievement unavailable.

[theory]

Industrialization is terrible in the base game.

It can be a great way of getting the tuck-six-cards achievement, though.

Monumental Industrialization is much more common at low level play than it it at high level play.  Just a pattern I observed as I moved up the ranks.  Stronger players are more likely to go for Monumental Currency and Monumental Reformation, rendering the achievement unavailable.

This is somewhat like saying, "getting to age 9 is much more common at low level play, because stronger players are more likely to go for getting 6 achievements quickly".  You don't always have the luxury of Reformation / Currency, but Industrialization doesn't require handsize (just another some other factories).

[Hideyoshi]

Well, industrialization is always a good card in both base and echoes game.

In base game, I don't see any problems for industrialization. Even if you have 20 factories on your board, it does not give you special achievements but just monument for a single card. (You may claim Empire, but you need to splay the blue/green cards first) I may say it will help you to get more factories when you begin industrialization, and you opponents cannot catch up with you anymore. Well, in this case, I just consider it as a strong card but not the broken one.

In echoes game, I have tried a few times using industrialization card for claiming several special achievements. Well, it is one of the card in echoes game which I consider it as "very important card". You may not need to use them, but you'd better not to give it to your opponents and let them have chances to get advantages. Other good examples are noodles and almanac. Well, I may consider there are many good cards in the echoes game, so I may just avoid them at all. However, I do not see industrialization (or other strong cards) as "broken cards", as at least I have several ways to deal with them in different cases.

[popsofctown]

Industrialization is terrible in the base game.

It can be a great way of getting the tuck-six-cards achievement, though.

Monumental Industrialization is much more common at low level play than it it at high level play.  Just a pattern I observed as I moved up the ranks.  Stronger players are more likely to go for Monumental Currency and Monumental Reformation, rendering the achievement unavailable.

This is somewhat like saying, "getting to age 9 is much more common at low level play, because stronger players are more likely to go for getting 6 achievements quickly". 

Yes, it is somewhat like saying that.  I don't get your point.

[AJD]

Industrialization is terrible in the base game.

It can be a great way of getting the tuck-six-cards achievement, though.

Monumental Industrialization is much more common at low level play than it it at high level play.

(One thing I do have to learn is not to try to get Monument out of Industrialization when I already have Monument.)

[popsofctown]

In echoes, you still can, you just need to transfer a Monument achievement to the available achievements and tuck 12 cards.

[Razzishi]

Industrialization is terrible in the base game.

Well, it's at least balanced.  I've had games where it's done practically nothing for me, and I only activate it for the splays (and maybe not even then).  This is the second occasion I've seen people become frustrated with Industrialization in echoes, and now I get why.  The rule is to draw an echoes card when you have a base card in hand and no echoes card, forcing you to do something with the echoes card before you get access to another.  But with Industrialization, you are directly tucking the cards you draw, allowing you access to all the special things the echoes cards can get you with minimal effort.  There's nothing else that tucks so massively directly from the draw piles; most of it is limited to one or two cards at a time, or force the cards to come from your hand.

[ksasaki]

I agree that it's terribly broken, in fact I posted something about this earlier...

ah here we are:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7367.0

I feel like light bulbs have become critically important in echoes (aside from industrialization i suppose).  You have broken cards like linguistics slide rule and measurement.  Anyone who has played me more than once knows one of my favorite ways to win is just measurement an 11-card stack.  It's kind of ridiculous that you can go and just end the game like that even if you are way down in achievements. 

[teasel]

maybe we just need to pay more attention to industry icons,i mean isn't there a card that gives you 1 point for every 2 industry symbols in figures?

[ksasaki]

I've won a game with 7 special achievements teasel, let me see if I can find the log