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BiggerOil

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Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« on: March 28, 2013, 03:11:03 pm »
+2

Dominion Card List – Capitalism
Emphasis on choices, card types, and gaining.

I've been working on this for a while now. I wanted to create an interactive set that relies heavily on decisions and card types. Durations and gainers are my favorite cards so I used quite a bit of those too. I don't own Dominion (played all my games on Iso) so I don't know how these cards would work in practice as I couldn't playtest them, but they seem pretty fair in theory to me. Sorry if some of these cards/names have been duplicated; I'm open to revisions/suggestions to make them more original. I think I have some interesting cards though so please enjoy :V

$2 Mortgage - Action: Duration
+1 Card, +1 Action
Name and gain a virtual $ amount up to $3. At the start of your next turn, discard the same amount of cards as the number you named.

$2 Accountant - Action
+1 Card, +1 Action   
You may reveal a treasure from your hand. If you do, reveal and discard cards from the top of your deck until you find a treasure with a different value than the treasure you revealed. You may switch positions of the treasures, putting one in your hand and the other in the same place in your deck. Put the rest of the cards back on deck in the same order.

$3 Convention - Action
+1 Card, +1 Action
If you have 3 or more Conventions in play, +$1. In games using this, you may gain a Convention when you have a Convention in play and you gain an action card costing $5 or more.

$3 Deflation - Action
+1 Card, +1 Buy
Trash a Treasure card from your hand.
If the trashed card was a...
Copper, all cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Silver, all cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Gold, all cards cost $3 less this turn, but not less than $0.

$3 Investment - Action: Duration
+1 card, +1 action
Discard a treasure. If you do, then at the start of your next 2 turns, +$1.

$3 Teller - Action
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a treasure. Put it into your hand and put the cards back on your deck in the same order.

$4 Casino - Action
Reveal and discard the top 3 cards of your deck. If all 3 cards have the same name, then +2 cards, +2 actions, and +$2. Otherwise, for each action card revealed, +1 action. For each treasure card revealed, +$1. For each victory card revealed, +1 card.

$4 Charity - Action: Attack
+1 Card, +1 Action
Every other player either discards a treasure or gains a copper. If your opponent revealed a hand with no treasure, you may trash this. If you do, he gains a copper and +$2. When you buy this, gain a copper.

$4 Insiders - Action: Duration
Trash this card. At the start of each of your opponent’s next turn(s), they get +$2 and +1 Buy. When your opponents buy or gain a card, you may gain a card costing up to $2 more.

$4 Landlord - Action: Attack
+1 Card, +1 Action, +$1
Gain an estate. Each player with four or more cards in hand discards down to 3 cards. If the estate pile is empty, then gain a copper. When you buy this, gain an estate.

$4 Secretary - Action
+2 cards
Discard a card from your hand.
If it is an...
Action card, +3 actions. 
Treasure card, +$2.
Victory card, +1 card.

$4 Speculator - Action: Duration
+1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy
While this is in play, all cards cost $1 less this turn (but not less than $0), and $1 more your next turn.

$5 Embezzlement - Treasure: Attack
+1 Buy, $0
Each opponent reveals and discards a treasure. 
If the opponent to the left revealed and discarded a...
Copper, then +$1
Silver, then +$2
Gold, then +$3
If the opponent revealed a treasure that is not one of the above or revealed a hand with no treasure, then you may trash this card. If you do +$3.

$5 Deposit - Action: Victory
+1 card, +1 action
Gain a deposit token. Worth 1 VP for every deposit token you have at the end of the game.

$5 Presentation - Action
+1 Action
The player to your left reveals the top card of his/her deck.
If it is an...
Action card, gain an action card costing up to $4 and put it into your hand.
Treasure card, either +$2 or gain a copy of that treasure, putting it into your hand.
Victory card, +1 card and +1 VP.

$5 Stock Exchange - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Trash one and replace it with a card costing up to $4. Put the 4
cards back on your deck in any order.

$5 Shipment - Treasure: Victory
$0, Worth 1 VP
Worth $1 for every 4 victory cards in your deck (rounded down).

$6 Con-artist - Action: Looter
+2 Actions, +$2
Gain a ruins and an action card costing less this, putting both into your hand.
 
$6 Liquidator - Action: Attack
+1 Action
Gain a Copper in hand. Each player reveals cards from the top of his/her deck until he/she reveals a card costing $3 or more that is not a victory card. You may buy the card (in treasure) from your opponent at half its cost rounded down and put it into your hand. Your opponent puts the treasure in his/her hand.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: The only cards that really concern me are Insiders and Liquidator. They both seem kinda political in multiplayer games and Insiders could be confusing with the benefits if multiple are played.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:56:41 am by BiggerOil »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2013, 03:47:24 pm »
+1

It makes sense that you've only played Dominion online. You've got some tracking and accountability issues here.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2013, 03:51:50 pm »
+1

"Value of treasure" is a bad idea... what about Fool's Gold, Philosopher's Stone, etc? Treasure has no value... "Value" is not a term defined in Dominion, and it can be quite tricky to try to define new terms like that. When you play treasure cards, they add $, just like playing a Woodcutter does... But they have no "Value."
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2013, 03:58:34 pm »
0

Casino after a big Rabble attack.....

Discard the 3 Estates that were left on top. +5 cards, +2 actions, +2$.

For a $3.

Also, no need at all to mention (including Curses)
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BiggerOil

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2013, 04:29:32 pm »
0

"Value of treasure" is a bad idea... what about Fool's Gold, Philosopher's Stone, etc? Treasure has no value... "Value" is not a term defined in Dominion, and it can be quite tricky to try to define new terms like that. When you play treasure cards, they add $, just like playing a Woodcutter does... But they have no "Value."
Ahh, I didn't consider those special treasures. Thanks for that suggestion. I'll revise/delete those later.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2013, 04:42:39 pm »
+1

It makes sense that you've only played Dominion online. You've got some tracking and accountability issues here.

To elaborate on this:

Tracking issues come up when you have complicated effects.  In online play, the app will alleviate a lot of that tracking.  It can keep track of how many actions you have left, or what level of nested King's Courts you are on.  There are certain cards that already create a bit of a tracking headache in live play -- KC has that possibility, and it can be difficult to keep track of what durations were played this turn and what came in from last turn, for example.  Pawn can be pretty difficult to track as well -- after you launch into a giant engine where you play out your whole deck, it can be hard to remember what options you picked for that Pawn you used way back at the beginning of your turn.

Tracking issues are thus part of official cards too.  But with a fan card, you should try to keep it in mind and limit it as much as possible.



Accountability issues come up when cards are written such that a player could cheat and nobody would be the wiser.  There are a few official cards that are examples of this, though not many.  Throne Room, for example, is written such that it forces you to play an action from your hand, if you have one.  Golem into a TR when your hand is just Remake and four Colonies?  Too bad!  Isotropic would have forced you to play that Remake twice and destroy your 40 points.  But there is an accountability issue in that, IRL, you could simply not play your Remake.  Your opponents would not know you had one in your hand.

To fix TR, you either have to make it optional -- "you may" -- or you have to add in an accountability clause -- "or reveal a hand with no action cards".  Whenever you have an effect that is not optional, you should include a clause that allows for accountability.

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BiggerOil

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2013, 04:48:21 pm »
0

Removed Deflation and changed Embezzlement. In regards to Casino, it reveals from your deck, not your opponent's deck. Also (I should've worded this better), when you do get the bonus, you ignore the other effects and just get the +2 cards, +2 actions, and +$2.

Edit: My other version of Embezzlement is way too unbalanced for multiplayer games. Will have to change it again.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 04:53:59 pm by BiggerOil »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2013, 04:56:58 pm »
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Thanks, eHalcyon. Specifically, here are the tracking and accountability issues I see:

Mortgage: There's no built-in way to track how many coins you gained to determine how many cards you must discard. That could be difficult to remember, especially in engine games with several players.

Accountant and Teller: When you're pulling a large number of cards from the top of your deck, it's easy to lose track of their order. This is why existing official cards allow you to put the cards back in any oder (for effects that reveal/look at a specific small number of cards) or discard them (for effects that "dig" for specific types of cards).

Investment: How are you keeping track of whether this is the next turn or the turn after that? This isn't an dealbreaker, but I thought I'd mention it.

Charity: Seems to implicitly assume that players without Treasure in hand will reveal a hand with no Treasure cards, but the card does not instruct them to do so.

Deposit: How are you keeping track of how many times Deposit has been played?

Shipment: How are you meant to determine, mid-game, how many Victory cards are in your deck?

There are a bunch of wording and balance issues as well, but these are the only tracking and accountability issues I could find.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2013, 05:01:21 pm »
+1

Thanks for sharing your ideas! I'm far from an expert on fan cards, but I'll point out some mistakes in wording that could cause issues. Hope it doesn't sound harsh!


$2 Mortgage - Action: Duration
+1 Card, +1 Action
Name and gain a virtual $ amount up to $3. At the start of your next turn, discard the same amount of cards as the number you named.

You want to avoid saying "gain" here... "gain" always means to take a card from the Supply and put it in your discard pile (unless the gain from or gain to location is specified otherwise. Either way, you can't "gain" coins). The wording is probably going to be really tricky here no matter what, but the card can work.

+1 Card
+1 Action
+X$, where X is a number you choose from 1 to 3.
At the start of your next turn, discard the chosen number of cards.

It sounds too powerful, but not sure.

Quote
$2 Accountant - Action
+1 Card, +1 Action   
Reveal a treasure from your hand. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you find a treasure with a different value than the treasure you revealed. You may switch positions of the treasures, putting one in your hand and the other in the same place in your deck. Put the rest of the cards back on deck in the same order.

As mentioned earlier, "value" is a non-defined concept. It causes issues with "special" treasures. In this case though, why not just go with the card name? It should work the same, except you won't be able to switch a Loan with a Copper, or a Royal Seal with a Silver, etc.

+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal and set aside a treasure from your hand. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a differently named treasure. You may put the revealed treasure in your hand. If you do, put the set aside treasure on top of your deck. Otherwise, put the set aside treasure in your hand. Put the rest of the revealed cards back on deck in the same order.

Wording can probably be further improved. Also, putting them back "in the same order" can be tricky; you have to be very careful about how you reveal them to begin with. I think all official cards that reveal cards from the top of your deck allow you to choose the order you put them back. However, you can't allow that here, as it would become way too powerful if you reveal a treasure from your hand that you don't have any more of in your deck.

Quote
$3 Casino - Action
Reveal and discard the top 3 cards of your deck. For each action card discarded, +1 action. For each treasure card discarded, +$1. For each victory card discarded, +1 card. If you reveal and discard 3 cards of the same name (including curses), then +2 cards, +2 actions, and +$2.
Only minor changes here:

Reveal and discard the top 3 cards of your deck. For each action card discarded, +1 action. For each treasure card discarded, +$1. For each victory card discarded, +1 card. If the all 3 cards discarded this way have the same name, +2 cards, +2 actions, +$2.

I think it's way too powerful...

Quote
$3 Convention - Action
+1 Card, +1 Action
If you have 3 or more Conventions in play, +$1. In games using this, you may gain a Convention when you have a Convention in play and you gain an action card costing $5 or more.
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have 3 or more Conventions in play, +$1.
------------------------------------------
While this is in play, when you gain an action card costing $5 or more, you may gain a Convention.

No need for the "in games using this." This could be a fun card... probably needs to cost $2. Even when it's actually working, it's only a Peddler, a $4 card. It's worthless unless you get a lot of them.

Quote
$3 Deflation
+1 card, +1 buy
Trash a treasure. Cards cost the amount of $ less of the value of the treasure you trashed.

This can probably only be made to work with the basic treasures, due to the whole "value" thing. Wording on price reduction should match that of Bridge. How about:

+1 Card
+1 Buy
Trash a Treasure card from your hand.
If the trashed card was a...
Copper, all cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Silver, all cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Gold, all cards cost $3 less this turn, but not less than $0.

I actually like this card. It's a variant on Moneylender early on; and an interesting Salvager/Bridge mix later.
Quote
$3 Investment - Action: Duration
+1 card, +1 action
Discard a treasure. If you do, then at the start of your next 2 turns, +$1.

+1 card
+1 action
You may discard a treasure. If you do, then at the start of your next 2 turns, +$1.

I think wording basically works as-is; but the "may" should be there because of accountability. Though it would be the first Duration card to stay out more than one turn... the player would have to have a way of tracking how many turns it's already been out. But I don't think that's necessarily bad, so long as it's limited to just 2 turns. It's probably pretty weak, I'm guessing.

Quote
$3 Secretary - Action
+2 cards
Discard a card from your hand. If it is an action card, +3 actions.  If it is a treasure card, +$2. If it is a victory card, +1 card.

To borrow wording from Ironworks:
Discard a card. If it is an...
Action card, +3 actions.
Treasure card, +$2.
Victory card, +1 card.

Note that "discard" means "from hand" by default; no need to specify. The card should work fine, no clue at all how powerful it is.

Quote
$3 Teller - Action
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a treasure. Put it into your hand and put the cards back on your deck in the same order.

Like Accountant, putting them back in the same order may be slightly tricky. But I think the wording is fine as-is.

Quote
$4 Charity - Action: Attack
+1 Card, +1 Action
Every other player either discards a treasure or gains a copper. If your opponent revealed a hand with no treasure, you may trash this. If you do, +$2.
You have to instruct them to reveal their hand at some point. It's also not clear who gets to make the choice. Do you intend for them to be forced to discard a treasure unless they have none? Or can they choose which way to be attacked? I'll assume the former, because otherwise they would never reveal their hands...

+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player discards a Treasure (or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards). If a player revealed a hand with no Treasure cards, he gains a Copper and you may trash this. If you do, +$2.

Quote

$4 Insiders - Action: Duration
Trash this card. At the start of each of your opponent’s next turn(s), they get +$2 and +1 Buy. When your opponents buy or gain a card, you may gain a card costing up to $2 more.

I like this. I see what you mean about political concerns... but even so, it's neat. Maybe too similar to Smugglers? However, Duration cards generally need to do something on your next turn, which this doesn't. And if you trash it when you play it, it won't be out to remind you that you played it.

At the start of your next turn, trash this.
---------
While this is in play, at the start of each opponent's turns, they get +2$ +1 buy and when an opponent gains a card, you may gain a card costing up to $2 more.

Quote
$4 Landlord - Action: Attack
+1 Card, +1 Action, +$1
Gain an estate. Each player with four or more cards in hand discards down to 3 cards. If the estate pile is empty, then gain a copper.

As worded, this will attack yourself as well. I'm assuming that's not what you intended? This sounds maybe too powerful.... same cost and effects as Peddler, but with a Militia attack built in. Of course the Estate gaining is a drawback, usually. Could be interesting.

+1 Card
+1 Action
+1$
Gain an Estate. Each other player with four or more cards in hand discards down to 3 cards. If the Estate pile is empty, gain a Copper

Quote
$4 Speculator - Action: Duration
+1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy
While this is in play, all cards cost $1 less this turn (but not less than $0), and $1 more your next turn.

The wording is tricky here... if you are using "while this is in play" then you don't need to refer to "this turn". Do you want this to be Throne-able, like Bridge, or not, like Highway and Princess? Donald has said he prefers Highway/Princess because of wording clarity. But because of the Duration aspect, that might not be possible here.

+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
All cards cost $1 less this turn (but not less than $0)
During your next turn, all cards cost $1 more

Kind of a weird mix between Highway and reverse-Tactician. I'm guessing that there's balance issues, but hard to say.

Quote
$5 Embezzlement - Treasure: Attack
$1 Buy, $0
Each player discards a treasure. +$ of the treasure with the highest value discarded.

Treasure Attack? Why not, I suppose. Again you are attacking yourself, though. Also, seems rare that you would get more than the +1$, though it could be really strong against a Chapel / Big Money deck. And, of course, "value" issues. Maybe getting +3$ for an opponent discarding a Gold is way too good anyway... that's a $6 swing, for a $5 card, that would usually miss... quite swingy. Maybe limit the benefits.

$0
+1 Buy

When you play this, each other player discards a treasure (or reveals a hand without one).
If any Silver was discarded this way, +$2.
Otherwise, if any Copper was discarded this way, +$1.

Quote
$5 Deposit - Action: Victory
+1 card, +1 action
Worth 1 VP for every 5 times you play this card or a copy of this card.

I don't see how this can work.... there's no way to track how many times you played it. Though you could add tokens if you really wanted. Also, do you mean for each copy of Deposit to be worth that many points, or just that you get that many points total?

+1 Card
+1 Action
Take a Deposit token and put it on your Deposit mat.

Worth 1 VP for every 5 Deposit tokens on your Deposit mat (rounded down).

Quote
$5 Presentation - Action
+1 Action
The player to your left reveals the top card of his/her deck. If it is an action card, gain an action card costing up to $4 and put it into your hand. If it is a treasure card, either +$2 or gain a copy of that treasure, putting it into your hand. If it is a victory card, +1 card and +1 VP.

Some minor formatting issues. Might be too powerful with the ability to put an action directly into your hand, combined with the fact that it's non-terminal.

+1 Action
The player to your left reveals the top card of his/her deck and puts it back.
If it is an...
Action card, gain an action card costing up to $4, putting it into your hand.
Treasure card, choose one: +$2; or gain a copy of the revealed card, putting it into your hand.
Victory card, +1 card +1 VP.

Quote
$5 Stock Exchange - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Trash one and replace it with a card costing up to $4. Put the 4
cards back on your deck in any order.

+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Gain a card costing up to $4. Put the revealed cards and the gained card on your deck in any order.

Neat, probably pretty powerful, but at $5 might be fine. Lookout / Cartographer / Workshop combo.

Quote
$5 Shipment - Treasure: Victory
$0, Worth 1 VP
Worth $1 for every 4 victory cards in your deck (rounded down).

I like the self-synergy with it being a Victory card. Similar to Philosopher's Stone in terms of needing to take time to count your deck. Should be worded the same, too:

When you play this, count your deck and discard pile.
Worth $1 for every 4 victory cards between them (rounded down).

Quote
$6 Con-artist - Action
+2 Actions, +$2
Gain a ruins and an action card costing up to $5, putting both into your hand. (You may not gain a Con-artist with this card.)
 

Should be a Looter type if it involves Ruins. Slight wording change.

+2 Actions
+$2
Gain a Ruins and an action card costing up to $5 that is not a Con Artist, putting both into your hand.

Could be confusing to new players why the "not a Con Artist" is there, since it's a $6 card. Maybe "An action card costing less than this" instead. Would make it slightly less powerful with Highway/Bridge, but better wording-wise.

Quote
$6 Liquidator - Action: Attack
+1 Action
Gain a Copper in hand. Each player reveals cards from the top of his/her deck until he/she reveals a card costing $3 or more that is not a victory card. You may buy the card (in treasure) from your opponent at half its cost rounded down and put it into your hand. Your opponent puts the treasure in his/her hand.

Again an attack that doesn't specify "other" players. I'd avoid "buy" here, since it really isn't buying.

Just tried to reword it, and failed. I don't know if there is any possible wording here to allow buying from another player like you want. Maybe someone else can think of something. Neat concept, but probably too swingy or political.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2013, 05:02:15 pm »
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Thanks, eHalcyon. Specifically, here are the tracking and accountability issues I see:

Mortgage: There's no built-in way to track how many coins you gained to determine how many cards you must discard. That could be difficult to remember, especially in engine games with several players.

Accountant and Teller: When you're pulling a large number of cards from the top of your deck, it's easy to lose track of their order. This is why existing official cards allow you to put the cards back in any oder (for effects that reveal/look at a specific small number of cards) or discard them (for effects that "dig" for specific types of cards).

Investment: How are you keeping track of whether this is the next turn or the turn after that? This isn't an dealbreaker, but I thought I'd mention it.

Charity: Seems to implicitly assume that players without Treasure in hand will reveal a hand with no Treasure cards, but the card does not instruct them to do so.

Deposit: How are you keeping track of how many times Deposit has been played?

Shipment: How are you meant to determine, mid-game, how many Victory cards are in your deck?

There are a bunch of wording and balance issues as well, but these are the only tracking and accountability issues I could find.

I'm interested to hear your and eHalcyon's opinions on my re-wordings.
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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2013, 05:09:41 pm »
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Thanks for the analysis GendoIkari. I'll use your version of Deflation and I'll change some of the wordings.
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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2013, 05:14:35 pm »
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Removed Deflation and changed Embezzlement. In regards to Casino, it reveals from your deck, not your opponent's deck. Also (I should've worded this better), when you do get the bonus, you ignore the other effects and just get the +2 cards, +2 actions, and +$2.

Edit: My other version of Embezzlement is way too unbalanced for multiplayer games. Will have to change it again.

My response was to Casino wasn't clear. I meant after your opponent hands you a big Rabble attack.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 05:16:22 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2013, 05:23:52 pm »
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Removed Deflation and changed Embezzlement. In regards to Casino, it reveals from your deck, not your opponent's deck. Also (I should've worded this better), when you do get the bonus, you ignore the other effects and just get the +2 cards, +2 actions, and +$2.

Edit: My other version of Embezzlement is way too unbalanced for multiplayer games. Will have to change it again.

My response was to Casino wasn't clear. I meant after your opponent hands you a big Rabble attack.
Still, Rabble probably wouldn't be much of a problem anyway. It'll likely not hit 3 estates, because once you hit 2 estates with Rabble, you can only cycle one card from the opponent at a time. I mean, it seems like the only time you could depend on that would be in games with KC, Casino, and Rabble and at that point, I'd say it's negligible.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2013, 05:27:53 pm »
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Removed Deflation and changed Embezzlement. In regards to Casino, it reveals from your deck, not your opponent's deck. Also (I should've worded this better), when you do get the bonus, you ignore the other effects and just get the +2 cards, +2 actions, and +$2.

Edit: My other version of Embezzlement is way too unbalanced for multiplayer games. Will have to change it again.

My response was to Casino wasn't clear. I meant after your opponent hands you a big Rabble attack.
Still, Rabble probably wouldn't be much of a problem anyway. It'll likely not hit 3 estates, because once you hit 2 estates with Rabble, you can only cycle one card from the opponent at a time. I mean, it seems like the only time you could depend on that would be in games with KC, Casino, and Rabble and at that point, I'd say it's negligible.

Fair point. I suppose it's not as much of an actual concern on the card, as just a very amusing possibility that could end up happening when playing against someone who is Rabbling like crazy.

*Edit* Also makes for a great Ghost Ship counter!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 05:30:09 pm by GendoIkari »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 06:00:15 pm »
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I started writing this up after my last post, so you might have already addressed some of these.  Don't take this criticism the wrong way -- it is meant to be constructive.  There are some neat ideas here!

There are also some completely broken ideas though. ;)







Mortgage -- I imagine this is pretty strong.  Often you should be easily able to afford a single discard in your next turn.  Moreover, it wouldn't be too bad to just spam a bunch of Mortgages.  After getting +$5 with Mortgage, you know your next hand is wiped out anyway so you might as well keep playing them.  In weakening one hand to improve another, Mortgage is sort of like Tactician.  But it is cheaper, gives a bit more control, and it gives you to the benefits now (which tends to be better than getting them later).

But overall, it is hard to evaluate.  It might be OK.  There is a tracking issue in that you have to remember how much money you gained with it so that you can discard the right number of cards.  The major problem is that you have to remember it on your NEXT turn, which is longer than most cards require you to remember something.




Accountant -- people have already mentioned that "value" is not always defined for treasure cards.  Also, you have to be careful about order of cards revealed.  You'll notice that there aren't any Dominion cards that do this.  They either discard everything else (e.g. Golem, Sage) or they let you put cards back in whatever order you want (e.g. Oracle).  It's pretty easy for a player to mess up the order by accident (or to mess with it on purpose, for that matter).

Another issue is, what happens when you don't reveal a treasure (maybe because you don't have one in hand)?  From the current wording, it is undefined.

If I am understanding the card correctly, Accountant is pretty weak, which is appropriate for a $2 card.  To fix the other problems, I would start it, "You may reveal a treasure from your hand.  If you do... until you reveal a treasure with a different name... shuffle the other cards and put them back on your deck".

The last part of that is because, again, requiring the same order can have issues.  But you also don't want to let the player put them back in any order, because then one of the best (and most annoying) use cases would be to reveal a set it up so that you reveal your entire deck, allowing you to re-order it as you please.  It would be easy to do actually -- just don't buy any treasure, so your deck only has Copper.



Casino -- no need to call out Curses specifically.  Do you mean for the bonuses to stack?  For example, if I reveal 3 Coppers, Casino will give me a total of +2 cards, +2 actions, +$5.  If you don't mean for it to stack, it should be written:

"Reveal and discard the top 3 cards of your deck.  If all 3 have the same name, +2 cards, +2 actions, +$2.  Otherwise, for each action card..."

I like it, but I think it is undercosted.  It should probably be $5, but $4 at least.  It is very comparable with Harvest.





Convention -- the wording is off.  For this kind of effect, it is "while this is in play", not "in games using this".  So:

"While this is in play, you may gain a Convention when you gain an action card costing $5 or more."

Anyway, this is a cantrip that becomes a Peddler from the third play onwards.  That feels weak to me.  As a baseline, a regular Peddler is costed correctly at about $4.  This is slightly cheaper but takes significantly more effort to activate.  It does have a clause to let you gain more of them quickly, but that requires investing in a bonus-less cantrip in the first place.

This is probably an OK card, but definitely test it more.  I wonder if it would be better at $2.




Deflation -- some wording issues again, and there is the problem of treasure "value" once more.  I don't think there is a way to fix it and retain the same concept (which, for the record, I think is extremely powerful and probably warrants a $6 or $7 card cost).




Investment -- big, big tracking issues.  It's already difficult for some people to track regular Durations.  One that lasts a second turn?  super confusing!



Secretary -- extremely powerful.  Consider the two most common use cases, especially at the start of the game:

A) +2 cards, discard a copper, +$2.
B) +2 cards, discard an Estate, +1 card.

Case A is net equivalent to +2 cards, +$1.  Early game, +$1 is worth about the same as +1 card, so this is very close to case B...

Case B is basically +3 cards because that Estate probably wasn't doing anything for you anyway.  So  it is a Smithy!  And Smithy is a $4 card.

I would try testing Secretary at $4 to start, potentially increasing it.  It really looks too good for $3.



Teller -- "same order" has issues, as noted above.  I'm not sure if this is OK at $3 or if it should be $4.



Charity -- Your opponent would never reveal a hand with no treasure because there is no place for them to do so.  You tell them to discard treasure or gain copper, never to reveal their hand.  But a bigger problem is that this is a powerful cantrip attack.  There are very, very few attacks that are non-terminal.  Off the top of my head, the only ones are Spy, Scrying Pool, and Urchin.  The first two are simple deck inspection and don't stack well (once you leave a bad card on their deck, additional attacks don't do anything) and Urchin only drops you down to a 4 card hand -- not scary at all.  But this one is Cutpurse or Copper-junking, both very painful. 


Insiders -- Very interesting concept.  The main issue is, again, tracking.  I would rephrase it like this:

"At the start of each other player's next turn, he gets +$2 and +1 Buy.  While this is in play, when another player gains a card, you may gain a card costing up to $2 more.  At the start of your next turn, trash this."

That way, the card remains in play for tracking purposes until your next turn.  Also, you don't have to say "buy or gain" because when someone buys a card, they will gain it.  If you say both, you would be able to gain two cards for their one buy.

There is one other big issue with this card -- infinite loops.

Amy and Bill have both played Insiders.  It is Carol's turn.  Let's say Carol buys a Copper.  Now Amy and Bill can both gain a card costing up to $2.  Let's say Amy gains an Estate.  OH HO, now Bill can ALSO gain a card costing up to $4 due to what Amy just gained!  But when Bill gains something from his Insiders, Amy's Insiders will trigger again... and then Bill's... and then Amy's... so by buying a measley Copper, both Amy and Bill drain all the Provinces, not to mention the rest of the supply.  And of course there are some issues in figuring out what order they do all those gains in as they bounce off of each other...

So I would do this:

"While this is in play, when another player gains a card, you may trash this to gain a card costing up to $2 more.  At the start of your next turn, discard this."

The core concept is still intact.  Infinite loops are gone.  It is trackable.  Opponents no longer gain a bonus because that could become pretty confusing -- do they still get a bonus if you have already trashed it away to another player's gain?  So just cut that away entirely.  And if you haven't used it by the time your turn rolls around again, you get to keep it.

This new version of the card isn't very powerful.  Your opponent can easily play around it.  But it would add some interesting interaction.  You have Insiders in play... now I have to weigh whether it is worth it to buy that card if it means giving you an even better one.




Landlord -- cantrip attacks again, noooo.  Like I said above, Peddler is already a $4 card.  Now you've added an attack on top of it, and a decent one at that.  Even with hurting yourself via Estate gains, this is too powerful.



Speculator -- Too powerful.  Far too powerful.  This is Highway with +Buy, which is just brokenly powerful.  The next turn penalty does not matter at all if you end the game this turn.

There is a bit of a tracking problem in remembering whether that Speculator was played this turn or last turn, though that's not really worse than any other Duration.

But yeah... too powerful.




Embezzlement -- there is an accountability problem in that you need to have "or reveal a hand with no treasure".  There is also the issue of treasure "value" again.  And there is an issue in that this is basically a super-Cutpurse.  Cutpurse can be really bad but at least it only kills Coppers.  Embezzlement makes pinning players much easier.  And that's before considering that this is a TREASURE attack, which means it is trivial to play multiples in the same turn.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "$1 Buy, $0".



Deposit -- how are you going to track how often it is played?  Tokens, probably, but we already do have Victory tokens for Bishop, Goons and Monument.  So this card is kind of like:

+1 Card, +1 Action, +0.20VP.

So this is a cantrip VP gainer... that can be bad because it leads to games that never end.  Say both players just play chains of KC-Deposit to rack up VP... how will the game ever end?  Note that this issue can come up with existing cards (KC-Monument, or Bishop spam on Fortress) but those are less likely because they are terminal and they provide money which encourages you to buy something, moving the game state closer to an end.  But with Deposit, all you get is VP.

Granted, it is much slower.

Oh, unless each Deposit is worth that much VP.  If so, then having 5 Deposits makes each play +1 Card, +1 Action, +1VP.  So the problem is bigger!



Presentation -- not sure how it compares to Tribute.


Stock Exchange -- I think it is OK.


Shipment -- Tracking issue.  With this card, you pretty much have to keep a running tally of how many treasures are in your deck, because it is not feasible to count them all every time you play Shipment (it would be more annoying than Philo Stone, but it would also require you to look at cards which you shouldn't otherwise be able to look at!).  But keeping a running tally isn't always possible -- consider Masquerade.  If I play Masq and pass an Estate in a 4p game, I will have to reveal to everyone that I passed an Estate or else the tallies for me and the player to my left will be incorrect.  I don't think there is a way to fix this card without heavily altering the concept.



Con-artist -- If you want to use Ruins, you have to give it the Looter type.  The Con-artist restriction is not necessary because you have it costing $6 but only gaining up to $5.  OK, it could matter in conjunction with price reduction... but then, the better wording is "gain an action card costing less than this".

I think this looks OK.


Liquidator -- super confusing, and yeah -- very political.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 06:01:02 pm »
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I'm interested to hear your and eHalcyon's opinions on my re-wordings.

I think they looked fine, for the most part.  :P
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BiggerOil

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2013, 01:14:00 pm »
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My comments in bold:
I started writing this up after my last post, so you might have already addressed some of these.  Don't take this criticism the wrong way -- it is meant to be constructive.  There are some neat ideas here!

There are also some completely broken ideas though. ;)

Mortgage -- I imagine this is pretty strong.  Often you should be easily able to afford a single discard in your next turn.  Moreover, it wouldn't be too bad to just spam a bunch of Mortgages.  After getting +$5 with Mortgage, you know your next hand is wiped out anyway so you might as well keep playing them.  In weakening one hand to improve another, Mortgage is sort of like Tactician.  But it is cheaper, gives a bit more control, and it gives you to the benefits now (which tends to be better than getting them later).

But overall, it is hard to evaluate.  It might be OK.  There is a tracking issue in that you have to remember how much money you gained with it so that you can discard the right number of cards.  The major problem is that you have to remember it on your NEXT turn, which is longer than most cards require you to remember something.

Yeah, I should likely put a limit of $5 from what you can get from this card. I didn't think about completely nuking the next turn and keep spamming it for $3.

Accountant -- people have already mentioned that "value" is not always defined for treasure cards.  Also, you have to be careful about order of cards revealed.  You'll notice that there aren't any Dominion cards that do this.  They either discard everything else (e.g. Golem, Sage) or they let you put cards back in whatever order you want (e.g. Oracle).  It's pretty easy for a player to mess up the order by accident (or to mess with it on purpose, for that matter).

Another issue is, what happens when you don't reveal a treasure (maybe because you don't have one in hand)?  From the current wording, it is undefined.

If I am understanding the card correctly, Accountant is pretty weak, which is appropriate for a $2 card.  To fix the other problems, I would start it, "You may reveal a treasure from your hand.  If you do... until you reveal a treasure with a different name... shuffle the other cards and put them back on your deck".

The last part of that is because, again, requiring the same order can have issues.  But you also don't want to let the player put them back in any order, because then one of the best (and most annoying) use cases would be to reveal a set it up so that you reveal your entire deck, allowing you to re-order it as you please.  It would be easy to do actually -- just don't buy any treasure, so your deck only has Copper.

I thought this card might be a bit too confusing. I wanted a card that would be able to switch places with cards in your deck. I'll I'll change it to reveal and discard and I'll give it a "You may reveal a treasure. If you do...

Casino -- no need to call out Curses specifically.  Do you mean for the bonuses to stack?  For example, if I reveal 3 Coppers, Casino will give me a total of +2 cards, +2 actions, +$5.  If you don't mean for it to stack, it should be written:

"Reveal and discard the top 3 cards of your deck.  If all 3 have the same name, +2 cards, +2 actions, +$2.  Otherwise, for each action card..."

I like it, but I think it is undercosted.  It should probably be $5, but $4 at least.  It is very comparable with Harvest.

Yeah, I didn't want it stack. I don't think it's overpowered the other way, because it's unreliable like tribute and you might get just a worse fishing village or something. It would be fine at $4 though I think.

Convention -- the wording is off.  For this kind of effect, it is "while this is in play", not "in games using this".  So:

"While this is in play, you may gain a Convention when you gain an action card costing $5 or more."

Anyway, this is a cantrip that becomes a Peddler from the third play onwards.  That feels weak to me.  As a baseline, a regular Peddler is costed correctly at about $4.  This is slightly cheaper but takes significantly more effort to activate.  It does have a clause to let you gain more of them quickly, but that requires investing in a bonus-less cantrip in the first place.

This is probably an OK card, but definitely test it more.  I wonder if it would be better at $2.

I wanted to make an opportunity cost card here. You're obviously not going to be buying them very much, but you have to make the initial investment. I'll change the wording to get rid of "in games using this."


Deflation -- some wording issues again, and there is the problem of treasure "value" once more.  I don't think there is a way to fix it and retain the same concept (which, for the record, I think is extremely powerful and probably warrants a $6 or $7 card cost).

Got rid of the treasure value.

Investment -- big, big tracking issues.  It's already difficult for some people to track regular Durations.  One that lasts a second turn?  super confusing!

I hadn't seen a 2-turn duration before and I thought it'd be a good idea. I can see what you're saying though about how it'd be confusing.

Secretary -- extremely powerful.  Consider the two most common use cases, especially at the start of the game:

A) +2 cards, discard a copper, +$2.
B) +2 cards, discard an Estate, +1 card.

Case A is net equivalent to +2 cards, +$1.  Early game, +$1 is worth about the same as +1 card, so this is very close to case B...

Case B is basically +3 cards because that Estate probably wasn't doing anything for you anyway.  So  it is a Smithy!  And Smithy is a $4 card.

I would try testing Secretary at $4 to start, potentially increasing it.  It really looks too good for $3.

Yeah, I realized afterwards how overpowered BM-Secretary is. I'll price it at $4.

Teller -- "same order" has issues, as noted above.  I'm not sure if this is OK at $3 or if it should be $4.

It's usually going to be a worse Fishing Village so I don't think it should be $4. It's obviously good if you can trash your coppers and use it to snag your golds. I'll change it to "reveal and discard."

Charity -- Your opponent would never reveal a hand with no treasure because there is no place for them to do so.  You tell them to discard treasure or gain copper, never to reveal their hand.  But a bigger problem is that this is a powerful cantrip attack.  There are very, very few attacks that are non-terminal.  Off the top of my head, the only ones are Spy, Scrying Pool, and Urchin.  The first two are simple deck inspection and don't stack well (once you leave a bad card on their deck, additional attacks don't do anything) and Urchin only drops you down to a 4 card hand -- not scary at all.  But this one is Cutpurse or Copper-junking, both very painful. 

Not really sure what to do with this one. It seems too weak at $5 with the ranks of Mountebank and Witch but too strong as an opener. I'll give it an on-buy gain a copper penalty.

Insiders -- Very interesting concept.  The main issue is, again, tracking.  I would rephrase it like this:

"At the start of each other player's next turn, he gets +$2 and +1 Buy.  While this is in play, when another player gains a card, you may gain a card costing up to $2 more.  At the start of your next turn, trash this."

That way, the card remains in play for tracking purposes until your next turn.  Also, you don't have to say "buy or gain" because when someone buys a card, they will gain it.  If you say both, you would be able to gain two cards for their one buy.

There is one other big issue with this card -- infinite loops.

Amy and Bill have both played Insiders.  It is Carol's turn.  Let's say Carol buys a Copper.  Now Amy and Bill can both gain a card costing up to $2.  Let's say Amy gains an Estate.  OH HO, now Bill can ALSO gain a card costing up to $4 due to what Amy just gained!  But when Bill gains something from his Insiders, Amy's Insiders will trigger again... and then Bill's... and then Amy's... so by buying a measley Copper, both Amy and Bill drain all the Provinces, not to mention the rest of the supply.  And of course there are some issues in figuring out what order they do all those gains in as they bounce off of each other...

So I would do this:

"While this is in play, when another player gains a card, you may trash this to gain a card costing up to $2 more.  At the start of your next turn, discard this."

The core concept is still intact.  Infinite loops are gone.  It is trackable.  Opponents no longer gain a bonus because that could become pretty confusing -- do they still get a bonus if you have already trashed it away to another player's gain?  So just cut that away entirely.  And if you haven't used it by the time your turn rolls around again, you get to keep it.

This new version of the card isn't very powerful.  Your opponent can easily play around it.  But it would add some interesting interaction.  You have Insiders in play... now I have to weigh whether it is worth it to buy that card if it means giving you an even better one.

I'm not sure how you can set an infinite loop up. It -might- be possible with Possession. But, since it's resolved on your opponent's turn, I don't really know how both you and your opponent can have it in play. I'll change it to just gain also.

Landlord -- cantrip attacks again, noooo.  Like I said above, Peddler is already a $4 card.  Now you've added an attack on top of it, and a decent one at that.  Even with hurting yourself via Estate gains, this is too powerful.

Again, like I did with Charity, I'll give it an on-buy penalty of an estate.

Speculator -- Too powerful.  Far too powerful.  This is Highway with +Buy, which is just brokenly powerful.  The next turn penalty does not matter at all if you end the game this turn.

There is a bit of a tracking problem in remembering whether that Speculator was played this turn or last turn, though that's not really worse than any other Duration.

But yeah... too powerful.

Huh. I thought it was pretty balanced. This card has several problems:
1. It's a duration so it'll miss the reshuffle a lot.
2. If you can't play more than 3 a turn, it's not going to help you much. So you have to line them all up kind of like Treasure Map. Also, because it's a duration, just play 2 Speculators one turn and then play 4 of them on the next, you can't line them up because of the durations and the benefits are non-existant.
It's obviously good with draw your deck cards, but those decks will always play your cantrips, which is one thing you might refrain from if you don't know you can line them all up. Tactician, Native Village, Alchemist come to mind as synergies, but Tactician makes a lot of cards good. Native Village isn't the same as NV-Bridge though, because you'll play your bridges every time you draw them. You might not want to play Speculator every time. Getting an Alchemist stack and a Speculator stack might be too slow.


Embezzlement -- there is an accountability problem in that you need to have "or reveal a hand with no treasure".  There is also the issue of treasure "value" again.  And there is an issue in that this is basically a super-Cutpurse.  Cutpurse can be really bad but at least it only kills Coppers.  Embezzlement makes pinning players much easier.  And that's before considering that this is a TREASURE attack, which means it is trivial to play multiples in the same turn.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "$1 Buy, $0".

I really wanted a treasure attack. The first few are weak but it's obviously stackable. The $1 buy thing was a typo on my part.

Deposit -- how are you going to track how often it is played?  Tokens, probably, but we already do have Victory tokens for Bishop, Goons and Monument.  So this card is kind of like:

+1 Card, +1 Action, +0.20VP.

So this is a cantrip VP gainer... that can be bad because it leads to games that never end.  Say both players just play chains of KC-Deposit to rack up VP... how will the game ever end?  Note that this issue can come up with existing cards (KC-Monument, or Bishop spam on Fortress) but those are less likely because they are terminal and they provide money which encourages you to buy something, moving the game state closer to an end.  But with Deposit, all you get is VP.

Granted, it is much slower.

Oh, unless each Deposit is worth that much VP.  If so, then having 5 Deposits makes each play +1 Card, +1 Action, +1VP.  So the problem is bigger!

Yeah, Deposit was intended to self-synergize. I can see your concern though. Stuff like Ghost Ship-Deposit would make the game last forever.

Presentation -- not sure how it compares to Tribute.

Stock Exchange -- I think it is OK.

Shipment -- Tracking issue.  With this card, you pretty much have to keep a running tally of how many treasures are in your deck, because it is not feasible to count them all every time you play Shipment (it would be more annoying than Philo Stone, but it would also require you to look at cards which you shouldn't otherwise be able to look at!).  But keeping a running tally isn't always possible -- consider Masquerade.  If I play Masq and pass an Estate in a 4p game, I will have to reveal to everyone that I passed an Estate or else the tallies for me and the player to my left will be incorrect.  I don't think there is a way to fix this card without heavily altering the concept.

I thought it'd be easy to keep track of victory cards. I didn't think about Masq. Not really sure how to change this card.

Con-artist -- If you want to use Ruins, you have to give it the Looter type.  The Con-artist restriction is not necessary because you have it costing $6 but only gaining up to $5.  OK, it could matter in conjunction with price reduction... but then, the better wording is "gain an action card costing less than this".

I think this looks OK.

I used the restriction because I didn't want someone to be able empty piles immediately after playing a Highway. I changed it to your way.

Liquidator -- super confusing, and yeah -- very political.
I like the idea but not really sure how to make it work  :'(

Thanks for the comments!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2013, 01:46:21 pm »
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Commenting on your comments:

Charity is plenty strong compared to Mountebank and Witch, simply because it is cantrip which makes it way easier to play bunches of them.  A simple on-buy penalty is not enough to off-set it, and same goes for Landlord.

As currently worded, Insiders is NOT only on opponent's turns.  You say "when your opponents buy or gain a card".  Well, an opponent can gain a card when it isn't their turn, e.g. when you play Ambassador/Swindler/Witch/Governor, or when you buy IGG/Embassy. 

But even if it were on opponent's turns only, it can still trigger an infinite loop in a game with more than two players.  I gave you an example of how it would happen, but I'll try to simplify it here.

There are 3 Players: A, B, and C.  B and C both have Insiders in play.

A gains a Copper.

B uses Insiders to gain an Estate, which is $2 more than the Copper that A gained.

C uses Insiders to gain a Gardens, which is $2 more than the Estate that B gained.

B uses Insiders to gain a Gold, which is $2 more than the Gardens that C gained.

C uses Insiders to gain a Province, which is $2 more than the Gold that B gained.

B uses Insiders to gain a Province, which is "up to $2 more" than the Province that C gained.

A hates life.




If you find Speculator balanced in your testing, then OK.  But having cantrip price reduction that comes with its own +Buy... that's really good man.



Do you think that Embezzlement is weak?  It really isn't!  It is very powerful.  If you make it less stackable, it would be more reason -- say, if it only affected people with 4 or more cards in hand.


I hope the comments were helpful!
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soulnet

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2013, 02:47:30 pm »
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Deposit seems ridiculously powerful. Way more powerful than Duke, which is already a powercard, for instance. It is pretty easy to get them to be worth 6VP, so they are even better than Province. I would say in the right circumstance they can easily be better than Colonies (i.e., I would buy them instead of Colony even if I have $11, although I'm probably playing poorly if I have $11 on a Deposit game and there are still Deposits to be bought). I don't think you can make Deposit work at any price point (maybe at $8+ they work, but it is hard to price something at $8+).

I would remove the +1 Action and work from there. Trying to rush or slog 5s without playing actions that give money/+buy/gain (because you need the action for Deposit) can be difficult. And slogging Deposit goes against the "play lots of them" you need, so it raises more interesting strategy (a more difficult to use version of Monument).
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zahlman

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 03:14:31 am »
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Quote
Convention -- the wording is off.  For this kind of effect, it is "while this is in play", not "in games using this".

I think his wording is usable, and has the result that the effect doesn't stack (i.e. you can only gain one Convention per $5+ Action gained, even if you have multiple Conventions in play).

Also, is it just me or are there two Casinos in the list? (I think the old version was left in after adding the fixed one?)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 03:15:32 am by zahlman »
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BiggerOil

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 09:55:49 am »
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Also, is it just me or are there two Casinos in the list? (I think the old version was left in after adding the fixed one?)

My mistake; I'll delete it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:57:32 am by BiggerOil »
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DStu

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 10:44:10 am »
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@Mortage:
Chosing X=1, Mortage is an Oasis for $2 whose drawback only occurs next turn.  You have a bit less control this way, but later drawbacks are usually weaker than earlier drawbacks.  And as said, ignoring Wharfs etc. the drawback is capped at 5.
Edit: If you do it the other way round, it's probably perfect for $2. Discard now (maybe allow X=0), and get the coins next turn.  This way, you can't (or can easily word it the way that you can't) get more benefit than you spent, and it's generally weaker, but not useless as it can turn dead cards into coins for next turn, and has the usual combos with Lib/Minion/Tactician/Watchtower etc.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 10:47:27 am by DStu »
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soulnet

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 11:35:15 am »
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With Tact getting the coins next turn is probably better than current turn as Oasis, because you don't even need to be able to DoubleTac. Just give your next massive turn some extra coin.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 12:18:53 pm »
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With Tact getting the coins next turn is probably better than current turn as Oasis, because you don't even need to be able to DoubleTac. Just give your next massive turn some extra coin.

I have no idea what you mean by this.
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soulnet

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Re: Capitalism -- My 19 card set.
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2013, 05:26:09 pm »
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If you do it the other way round, it's probably perfect for $2. Discard now (maybe allow X=0), and get the coins next turn.

I was saying such card combos with Tactitian even better than "get money now, discard next time". For double Tact is almost the same, but if you are not going double Tact, or at least the double Tact is not deployed yet, playing one of this and a Tactition gives the regular double-turn plus some coins, at no cost (discard what you were going to discard anyway).
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