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Author Topic: Has anyone played team innovation?  (Read 5155 times)

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rrenaud

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Has anyone played team innovation?
« on: March 22, 2013, 12:29:40 pm »
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I've played maybe 10 games of 2v2 innovation.  Perhaps I am too used to the pace of 1v1 innovation, but team games seem to advance through the ages way too fast.

Things like shared Pottery (edit: with teammate) are way too good, and Tools is just awful.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2013, 12:40:17 pm »
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I don't see how sharing Pottery with all four players is better than sharing Pottery with both players in a 1v1.  You empty the stacks faster, but you are sharing the scoring component of the card so it's pretty equal all around..

Is there more context than that?
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theory

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2013, 12:44:44 pm »
+1

I assume the point is that you get to Pottery higher-age cards immediately. 
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2013, 12:46:48 pm »
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But so do your opponents.  So I'm still just hearing, "Council Room lets you draw more cards than any 5".
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rrenaud

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2013, 02:08:45 pm »
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Yeah, I meant sharing with your teammate.
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Ozle

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 02:32:25 pm »
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I dont have enough friends to form a team *sad face*
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2013, 02:41:48 pm »
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Yeah, I meant sharing with your teammate.
Yeah, that sounds strong. 
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ednever

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2013, 03:27:05 pm »
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I thought the same thing when I played.

I really liked 4p team play (way better than 4p individuals). But you are right that we flew through the ages much faster than I think is ideal.

At the time I wondered if that meant playing Echos (Or FitS) would be better in 4p-team?

Do the expansions even achieve that: slower age advancement?

What if you played with the original mis-print and shuffled the Echo cards together with the base set cards ?

Ed
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2013, 03:30:53 pm »
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I thought the same thing when I played.

I really liked 4p team play (way better than 4p individuals). But you are right that we flew through the ages much faster than I think is ideal.

At the time I wondered if that meant playing Echos (Or FitS) would be better in 4p-team?

Do the expansions even achieve that: slower age advancement?

What if you played with the original mis-print and shuffled the Echo cards together with the base set cards ?

Ed

Was that a misprint?  I thought that's how the cards were originally designed. 


But anyway, as someone who has played quite a bit of echoes, I can assure you that age advancement slows down overall.  The echoes cards are a little bit better at teching you up, but emptying piles is harder because you draw echoes cards.  You can just keep an echoes card in your hand all the time to circumvent this, but that's usually a losing strategy because you need the power of echoes mixed into your board to stay competitive.
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rrenaud

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2013, 03:39:59 pm »
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To fix the game flow issue, I am considering just mashing two base game sets together, so there are two copies of every card.  It seems like that would give you the team flavor while still keeping the pace/pile depletion still at the rate of an ordinary 1v1 game.  Of course, it requires I am willing to basically lose two sets, or to fish them apart for 1v1.  But hey, base game innovation is so cheap anyway, right? :P

The other thing I dislike about the team game is how much symmetric sharing of a symbol ends up being important.  If you and your teammate both have say, exactly 5 crowns, and you keep on sharing some crown tech, you really start owning.  Maybe one way to fix it is that your teammate can share your dogmas only if he has strictly more of the symbol than you have to break the symmetry.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2013, 03:44:21 pm »
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That seems easier to counter than the pottery thing.  Shared Domestication, shared Sailing, there's all sorts of ways to to force a small tweak in your opponent's icon total.
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rrenaud

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2013, 03:50:03 pm »
+2

Fuck it, ordered two fresh copies of base innovation.  I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2013, 03:50:55 pm »
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I don't think mashing up two sets sounds like a bad idea.  I hope the cursing wasn't directed at my disagreement about the 5 crowns thing :/
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rrenaud

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2013, 04:16:07 pm »
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ancientcampus

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2013, 04:17:10 pm »
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I'm eager to see how the double-base set goes!

Kirian

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2013, 04:43:23 pm »
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heh, no ;)

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bill-oreilly-rant

Dude, that's way, way, older than the meme.  I mean... every time I hear someone use "fuck it" in that (very specific) sense, I think of Still Life with Woodpecker.

If you haven't read Tom Robbins's books, you don't know what you're missing.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2013, 04:50:16 pm »
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I might be playing some multiplayer innovation tomorrow night.  I could see how it goes.

Perhaps the first two players should get only one action on the first turn, so that one player from each team suffers that disadvantage?
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theory

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2013, 04:54:11 pm »
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I might be playing some multiplayer innovation tomorrow night.  I could see how it goes.

Perhaps the first two players should get only one action on the first turn, so that one player from each team suffers that disadvantage?

That's already the rule.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2013, 05:08:32 pm »
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fabulous
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rrenaud

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 06:09:59 pm »
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I am not actually sure it's good though.  Maybe it should only be the first player of the first team that gets 1 action.

Consider that with the rule as is, team 2 never has more turns that team 1, which is not true in 1v1 innovation.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 06:30:03 pm »
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That's a good point.  Maybe 1-1-1-2?
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rrenaud

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 07:10:22 pm »
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Yeah, that's another plausible fix.

To be honest, compared to the other two things I've complained about, 'first team' advantage seems very minor.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 07:15:45 pm »
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Yeah, that's another plausible fix.

To be honest, compared to the other two things I've complained about, 'first team' advantage seems very minor.

If there's a causal relationship between first team advantage and having the options/board position necessary to set up team Pottery and sync'ed icons, though, then that could be an important thing to fix.
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dondon151

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Re: Has anyone played team innovation?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2013, 01:47:31 am »
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I wonder why demands also don't affect your teammate? It doesn't seem like friendly fire is a unilaterally bad thing in Innovation, plus sometimes the demands could help your team as a whole instead of hurt it.

I do agree that with more players, cards end up depleting really quickly. Maybe also consider having blank cards as achievements and use all 10 cards in each age instead of 9.
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