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Author Topic: Silver Lining - Beta Cards  (Read 21319 times)

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ChaosRed

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Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« on: September 27, 2011, 04:23:19 pm »
+1


This is a fan variant developed by a new player. This thread hosts the cards that completed peer review and are in the "play test" phase. Cards that are still being discussed and under peer review in this expansion can be seen in this thread. I will post play test results here as time goes by.  If play test reveals adjustments, I'll move the card back to the peer review thread for discussion.

There's a basic shuffler for this expansion as well that produces a random shuffle. You can view the shuffler here.

Listed below is the entire 25 card set. Each card in the table below can be clicked to see a larger image of it...

2 Cost


3 Cost


4 Cost


5 Cost

6 Cost


« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:58:28 pm by ChaosRed »
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Epoch

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 04:27:16 pm »
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Cabal should technically say, "Reveal your hand."
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 05:26:24 pm »
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Yeah it's an important distinction, as Cabal does not reward you for holding onto Silver at the buy phase. Thanks, I'll make the change later tonight.
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Karrow

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 05:38:36 pm »
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Sorry to nitpick but some things were just throwing me off.  Not sure if it's on purpose, but you're not using the standard effect order on Excursion or Wooden Bridge.  The standard cards also always have the basic abilities stacked one per row without the semicolon, but I could understand doing it for space consideration.  The semicolon you have on the ones that are one per row also throw my eye off.  If you touched up the format, it may look a bit cleaner.

Other than that, it looks interesting so far.  I like the theme. 

And if all I can complain about is punctuation, you're doing good.

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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 06:12:09 pm »
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Solid feedback Karrow, I'll clean up the standard actions to comply with other cards, thanks for that tip.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 05:26:48 am »
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I'm not sure Villa should let you discard 2 cards to gain 2 cards? "I'll discard these two useless VP cards that are doing nothing in my hand and gain... 2 Colonies!"
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2011, 11:31:33 am »
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It was poor syntax on my part, Thisisnotasmile. I had meant the tertiary ability to essentially act like Cellar. I've updated the card text...



Also fixed some of the verbiage on Villa and Cabal, although other small cosmetic changes still need to be applied to some of the others. Thanks everyone for their feedback.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 11:33:52 am by ChaosRed »
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grep

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 01:40:31 am »
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Wooden bridge: Never less than $1? Does it mean that a Copper will cost $1 after playing a wooden bridge? Is there any reason to set the cost limit to $1 instead of $0 like elsewhere?
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 09:39:43 am »
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Wooden bridge: Never less than $1? Does it mean that a Copper will cost $1 after playing a wooden bridge? Is there any reason to set the cost limit to $1 instead of $0 like elsewhere?

Just a gimmick really, so yes, it actually pushes the value of Coppers and Curses UP. I would therefore allow you to Remodel a Copper/Curse (now worth 1) to a card normally worth 4 (since it would be worth 3). If you manage to play and trash two Wooden Bridges, a Copper/Curse can now be Remodeled into a card worth 5. But it's just a small diversion really, just something to make it tad more unique.
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danno

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 06:15:31 pm »
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I believe Harem is the only Victory Card that is "worth" anything (2 coin). All other Victory cards are worth 0. I am pretty sure you mean "cost", but that is not what the wording indicates.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 03:59:33 pm »
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I believe Harem is the only Victory Card that is "worth" anything (2 coin). All other Victory cards are worth 0. I am pretty sure you mean "cost", but that is not what the wording indicates.

You have the ability correct and I have my wording wrong, thanks for pointing that out. I'll correct that tonight.

Just FYI, I took Bribery off the board, my fellow play-tester didn't like the card (it's too wordy and cumbersome). It will be reworked, into a Masquerade type card, the "gift" cannot be defended (its no longer an attack) and the reward is a simple remodel of the card gifted. It will be limited to treasure for the gift, but not limited to treasure for the reward. I'll post it back to the peer review thread.
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Matt_Arnold

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2011, 10:46:07 am »
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Some fun cards here! Thank you for posting them.

Regarding Silver Vein: Players can always play their Silvers after Silver Vein, so that Silver Vein can gain a Silver 100% of the time. You could just say "Gain a Silver" and leave off the condition.

However, that would take away the player's ability to play a Silver before they play Silver Vein, to deliberately avoid gaining another Silver. Was that your intention?

Or, did you mean that you only gain a Silver if you did not play any Silvers this turn? In that case, say "During your Cleanup phase, if you have no Silvers in play, gain a Silver."
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 03:40:25 pm »
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Or, did you mean that you only gain a Silver if you did not play any Silvers this turn? In that case, say "During your Cleanup phase, if you have no Silvers in play, gain a Silver."

Yes this is what I intended, and this is how we play it, thanks for the syntax clarification. I'll update the card accordingly.  Cheers!
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biopower

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 04:53:35 pm »
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Emporium probably needs a mat, to be consistent with the other actions which set cards away from play. Also, it should probably return the cards to your deck at the end of the game instead of returning them to your hand, for consistency and because there isn't really a hand at the end of the game.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 07:05:28 pm »
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Here's the updated syntax on Silver Vein:



Here's the intent of the card.

You draw 2 Silver Veins, a Copper and 2 Silver.

You play the 2 Silver Veins and the Copper that turn during the Buy Phase, but not the 2 Silver. You buy a Silver (for the 3$), then during clean up because you did not play the Silver you gain 2 Silver (from the effect of the SV). This is the kind of play the expansion has seen a lot, and Silver Vein usually creates a rush, because once someone starts down the path, you have to sort of keep-up, because all 8 SVs in one hand is a devastating way to collect points.

Emporium probably needs a mat, to be consistent with the other actions which set cards away from play. Also, it should probably return the cards to your deck at the end of the game instead of returning them to your hand, for consistency and because there isn't really a hand at the end of the game.

Thanks for this. Although I chose not to put the mat into the syntax, (similar to how Island has no mat). I did update the syntax to denote the cards return to the deck. I also altered the card ability. This was based on my opponent's reaction of revealing two cards he wanted to set aside and only being able to set aside one. Although it makes the card significantly stronger, I think it will still be balanced at 5$. The key reason the card is being purchased (and succeeding) right now is actually for the +Buy and Actions alone. +Actions are sometimes hard to come by in the expansion and the +Buy effect is very useful when collecting Silver to play with Argent or Silver Vein.



Is the card a little more clear now bio? Or do you feel strongly a mat is necessary, so that its more compatible with other cards that stow away cards (but don't go out of the game themselves like Island)?

And thank you both for your help.
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biopower

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 07:52:07 pm »
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I had a humongous moment of derp and thought that Island needed a mat too. Since it doesn't, the card looks good now.

Another nitpick: Excursion should probably have the +1 Card before the +1 Action, and could probably use the same type of text that Inn does for consistency, as Inn is now the only card that explicitly lets you pick cards out of your discard pile. Maybe something like,
"Look through your discard pile, reveal a Victory card from it, and put it in your hand."
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 07:57:57 pm by biopower »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 08:52:20 pm »
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Another nitpick: Excursion should probably have the +1 Card before the +1 Action, and could probably use the same type of text that Inn does for consistency, as Inn is now the only card that explicitly lets you pick cards out of your discard pile. Maybe something like,
"Look through your discard pile, reveal a Victory card from it, and put it in your hand."

Cheers. I wouldn't even calling these nitpicks, I call it "getting it right", and I am much obliged. Been meaning to clean up Excursion for a while...

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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2011, 11:51:01 am »
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Just a small addendum: I stress-tested Black Knight last night and it is indeed quite beatable. A standard Silver Vein tactic, will actually kick its ass. You'll see Black Knight's value diminish in the next rankings.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:06:22 pm by ChaosRed »
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2011, 07:56:10 pm »
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Just a small addendum: I stress-tested Black Knight last night and it is indeed quite beatable. A standard Silver Vein tactic, will actually kick its ass. You'll see Black Knight's value diminish in the next rankings.

In playtesting, do you keep track of the same stats as Councilroom has? Do you play both as both players? And how do you physically mock up the cards? Play with real ones but keep track of which card represents which fan card?
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2011, 11:14:32 am »
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In playtesting, do you keep track of the same stats as Councilroom has? Do you play both as both players? And how do you physically mock up the cards? Play with real ones but keep track of which card represents which fan card?

You're going to get a much more verbose answer than you probably wanted, but since I am knee-deep in this process right now, I have much to share... :)

WHAT I TRACK
I don't track what is drawn or discarded in a turn, but I do track purchases and gains in a turn. So I don't have all the data Council Room has, nor can I value cards the same way, I use a really raw rating scheme based on win-loss and purchasing. So its very, very crude, but still not a bad baseline to test an expansion with. I track all purchases, winning scenarios, turn order and openings in a small database. I do NOT track what was on the board at the time of the game, only what was bought. This is a HUGE mistake I will not make again, if I ever do this again.

THE CARDS
Yes, I mock up each card, print them out and sleeve them. It looks pretty good, sleeving is a pain, it took my wife and I over 30 minutes to sleeve over 250 cards (plus sleeves for all the money and victory cards you'll play with). It's not fun, but once its done, you have a great set to play with. I print out the mock-up (exactly as you see on this thread), then place another playing card behind it. It works quite well. I might post a photo of how it looks, as I am generally quite pleased with the overall look of the fan cards.

PLAYING GAMES
I play most games with an opponent, although sometimes we discuss tactics before-hand, sometimes agreeing to try different combos specifically. I found we had to do this, or some cards just don't get tested. Cards that don't look that cool, actually turn out to be somewhat effective once you are forced to test them. Excursion sort of found its "niche" with us, by forcing us to give it some attention. So sometimes the games are less about competition and more about trying to bust things, or break things. So my wife and I will shuffle the board (I built a small online shuffler to do that), and then discuss what to test and how.

When I do solo, I'll pit basic strategies against a BM+card draw combo. I'll take the best card draw on the board, buy one and then just buy money and victories. I follow Geronimoo's simulator rules for that. Later this week, I intend to put Smithy on the board specifically to test strategies against it. Beating BM isn't as easy as you think, but in general Curse attacks thwart it, even weak ones like Shyster (and a Summon+Lycanthrope combo wins handily, at least it has so far). I am often pleased when a combo or tactic FAILS to beat Big Money, because it means the cards aren't entirely broken.

TESTING
I try weird tactics sometimes. I tried to build a deck entirely out of Shyster and Church Bell and one Silver. I essentially wiped out my entire hand except for Shyster cards and Church Bell (which I could not trash out). I then essentially tried to win by gaining 3VP a turn, getting estates here and there (with the one silver), to 3-pile estates and curses. Weird stuff, that probably could never win, but wanted to see if a broken, guaranteed 3VP a turn, was unbeatable. It turns out, it can sometimes win, but most of the time can be beaten, so right now it is isn't broken.

I worry some things ARE broken in the expansion. Summon will mill through your entire deck, if your deck is entirely one thing for example, creating a LOT of discards along the way. So if you somehow chapel to an all-action deck, you can play Summon, say "treasure" and mill your deck, all back into your discard pile. Is that broken? Well it might be, so I need to test it, to see.

Church Bell+Argent+Emporium is another combo I am worried about. Buy one Church Bell, buy Silver, buy Argent...then use Emporium to put all the victory cards you acquire to the side. This is one I might test tonight. It could certainly be devastating but might take too long to get to the final destination.

I'd say the card I worry about most right now are Auction, Summon and Argent. Argent is probably the most broken. In general, testing a non-terminal card is a LOT harder.

WHY I DO THIS
You have to love doing this kinda stuff I think (and thankfully I do). But it's a crude way to do it. For one thing, I have not tested multi-player. For another I've been at this for weeks now and still only have 46 games logged. That's a miserably small sample-size to really assess balance, value and broken combinations, but part of the fun is playing with a jagged set. In other words, part of the fun is playing a game with a set of cards that are poorly designed and by playing, seeing how and why they are poorly designed.

It gives you a TREMENDOUS appreciation for just how hard it is to do for real. Nothing beats play-testing for revealing whether your "good idea on paper" is really a good idea after all.

CONCLUSION
My general feeling is Silver Lining, is pretty gimmicky and obvious, almost like a beginner set. The combos are not subtle and many of the cards are designed to obviously complement one another. I feel many of the cards are quite strong within the set's synergy and theme, but fall very short when mixed with the actual pantheon of real DOMINION cards. In other words, the more I play the expansion, the more I realize it really is just a "fan variant", and falls, far, far, short of the real thing.

To be fair to myself, it is a very FUN set and my wife and I have played VERY close games, pursuing different tactics. At that level, I am pleased I made something fun, but it also becomes obvious just how inferior the set's general design is, when held up to the real thing.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2011, 11:41:06 am »
0

Cheesy Silver Lining "combo" of the day:


I am stunned by Excursion's ratings. For whatever reason, whenever we play test Excurion, it comes out on the winning side of the game, at a staggering percentage rate.

The card itself, is rather, limp and doesn't deserve the rating it has. The thing is though, it is such a wonderful complement to other cards in the set. One of the combos it enables is this one above.

You just have to buy BK to spawn a Curse. Then on your next turn, if you draw an Excursion you can trash the thing. Doing so not only turns you Excursion into a Laboratory, it converts your Black Knight into a Dutchy or, if you prefer another BK. Later that BK can convert your Excursion into a Laboratory again. Of course, early in the game, this is a great card for getting those early Estates out of your hand.

My "mantra" all week on this forum has been, "play test, play test, play test". You just never know how a card is going to function until you do. On its own, Excursion is barely anything, in fact, you'd probably not even give it a second look on a standard board.

But with the right companion, Excursion is a real enabler.

I know this isn't of great interest to others, but this is a superb place for me to store my notes and findings, and if any of you find it even remotely interesting, so much the better.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 12:59:09 pm by ChaosRed »
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chwhite

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2011, 02:16:49 pm »
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Well, early in the game Excursion is often a $3 Lab that trashes your Estates for you.  Even without other synergies, that's pretty strong!
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2011, 02:22:27 pm »
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Hard to fire early though, the thing about removing things from discard piles, is they are really weak early in the game, because your discard pile is often empty, or doesn't have the card you need. It's a bit "swingy" that way. If you buy Excursion in turn 2 and draw it in turn 3, you're often hosed a bit, all you have is a 3$ cantrip. If you draw it on turn 4 however, chances are, you have the Estate you need to get a lab and propel yourself to a 6$ buy.

But I guess a lot of early buys are like that, certainly Chapel has a bit of a luck factor.

So yeah Excursion is great for ridding yourself of early Estates, but it can take a while to do that, at least it has so far.

Rummage is a card that lets you find and pull 2 Silvers from your discard pile into your hand. Strong in this set, which enables Silver in all kinds of ways. The thing is, it is practically useless in the early rounds. It's very much a late-round purchase, to make your engine even stronger, but not much more.

I guess I am not very good at assessing boards to begin with, but analyzing a game after its over, and seeing what worked and didn't, is something I am more suited to. It's like I can't actually play football, but I am fairly decent at doing color-commentary during the game. :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 02:24:47 pm by ChaosRed »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2011, 09:01:38 pm »
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BETA REPORT

I have 61 games now logged, and some of the card ratings are starting to normalize a little, and many of the cards I thought were strong are proving themselves to be. Similarly, cards I thought were weak and showing themselves to be as well.

The most "broken" card is Church Bell. In fact, Church+BM is a really lethal combo that can win the game really fast, (especially if you get the Church Bell on a 5-2 opening split). It *will* need adjustment at some point.

Here are some of the card ratings after 61 games:

TOP RATED CARDS
VALUE: 1.38 +/- 0.06
We have a lot of games for this card, and we're learning that it is really too strong. Probably strong enough for 6$, because this way it can't be reached in turns 1/2, (which is when it causes the biggest swing). No game that was able to open with the Church Bell has lost so far. The card's power is it not only filters and trashes, it then tutors the best card of the draw, so it is effective early, mid, and late in the game. The earlier you get it the better. It also helps insulate from curse attacks, so it is almost never a bad play, and now when its on the board, both players grab it as soon as they can. The card is a problem and will need a revision.
VALUE: 1.38 +/- 0.1
This card is loved by both my wife and I. It is obviously the "marquee" card of the expansion, in that it provides the weirdest alt-victory, that much of the set attempts to complement. The card totally works and will always beat the player that ignores it. You can beat the card by going 3-5 on the split and then focusing on a secondary tactic, but you can't win 8-0 on it - ever. Because if your opponent gets 8, they are entirely content to farm silver until the pile depletes. They'll have several provinces along the way, because you'll often draw 4-silver.

I don't yet know what to do with the card. It's fun, is well-liked and doesn't seem horribly unbalanced but it almost always warps the board. I *might* adjust it to 5 on the second-wave of testing, but really the card isn't strong at all without its companions in the expansion. This is really the overall problem with the expansion as a whole. It functions really well on its own, but when blended with other expansions, the strength of many of the cards falls flat.
VALUE: 1.42 +/- 0.16
I've talked about this card a lot, so I won't comment too much further, except to say its rating is starting to lower a little (as I expected) and while it is rated high, it hasn't has as many games as other cards and I'm pretty sure the card is neither broken, nor will it remain top-3 forever (it will likely stay top-5 or 6 however, believe it or not). Still, it's a deceptively useful card, for a variety of reasons and combos with several of the cards in the expansion.

WORST CARDS
VALUE: 0.54 +/- 0.25
This is the worst card so far. This card needs more testing (it hasn't had a whole lot of games), but it is not liked and when it is brought into a deck, it tends to always land on the losing side. It will need revision in the next round of testing.
VALUE: 0.67 +/- 0.33
This card needs more testing too, but so far has been a dog. It does three things, none of them well or particularly useful and tends to be one of those cards you regret buying. While I will test it some more, I think the card will either get a cost adjustment, or a tweak to its abilities, or both.
VALUE: 0.75 +/- 0.38
This card also needs much more testing. Still, Rummage likes big, wide, stupid decks (like a full-throttle Silver Vein deck), but fails when there's density. In fact, "rummaging" from your discard pile, isn't particularly effective at all, without a discard mechanism to feed the discard pile. One card (Fool's Choice) does that nicely, but that card is terminal, so it's not an easy combo to fire. It has yet to appear on the board with "Summon", I imagine summoning for actions (which then discards all your treasures during the tutor), then playing a Rummage could be successful.

Again, I realize this is of limited interest to other readers, but this is a useful place to store my notes. 61 games is a paltry number of games to test 25 brand new cards and my rating system is pretty hokey (but useful enough). So take it all with a grain of salt.

After I reach 100 games, I'll pull the cards that need revision, start another peer-review round. Then I'll do a second-wave of beta-testing and then finally put this little experiment to bed. :)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 09:06:27 pm by ChaosRed »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2011, 09:38:31 pm »
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Is Church Bell really that strong? It doesn't look stronger than Masquerade to me, and that's a cost-3.
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