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Mean Mr Mustard

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Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« on: September 27, 2011, 08:33:45 am »
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<u><a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/27/game-20110927-014250-7dbae190.html>I Never Had A Chance</a></u>

In many ways a game of Dominion plays itself; a player makes all of the right moves, and due to draw order or table position loses.  The player cannot control the starting hands nor the order in which the deck draws, and must decide <i>how to use the resources presented to him</i>.  The function of the Dominion player is mainly to control what is added to the deck and how to play the cards in hand.  The mark of good play is be able to to overcome the disadvantages and <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110926-220617-704e6a4f.html>win anyway</a>.  This is a general strategy article about playing habits, not Kingdoms and cards.

<u>Opening As Player Two</u>

The second player has a deficit to overcome before the game even starts, but he also has one advantage.  The first player must reveal his strategy first.  The smart defender will take this into account before committing to a strategy, and further will mask his own strategy as long as possible by making his first buy as innocuous as he can get away with.  This prevents player one from mirroring, while giving the second player the chance to choose a counter or attack strategy or a faster-tempo opening on turn two.

If the first player chooses the obviously dominant strategy, this is moot, and the second player keeps his disadvantage if he mirrors.  There is one way to help prevent this from happening: using Veto mode to dismantle dominating combos and cards.  The less synergistic Kingdom is an advantage to the second player in the sense that the game will be longer; the opponent does not have the ability to force a fast mirror match.  Player one loses his initiative as the game wears on, and instead he gains the burden of losing a tie.

<u>Establishing a Tempo</u>

The single best way to counter bad shuffle luck and starting in seat two is fast early cycling.  Cycling cards that seem like weak openers, because they do not add economy, are actually very good at speeding the tempo of a deck.  Whatever the strategy, using the best cards more often is key.  Superior cycling wins games.

Is is of utmost importance to consider carefully which cards to buy and how each buy effects the tempo.  Adding treasure slows the tempo of the deck, but is usually a requirement for deck development.  Sometimes the correct move is to <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/26/game-20110926-232417-146aacfb.html>do nothing</a>, as any buy will only disrupt the tempo of the deck.  Each Silver stands between a very strong card and the reshuffle, and it is important to be aware of that when deciding what to do when presented with a weak hand.

<u>Squaring the Circle or Sticking To the Plan</u>

Sometime the cards do not cooperate at all, and the player is unable to incorporate a strategy fast enough due to lack of resources.  This is a very tough position to be in.  A decision must be made on whether and how to abandon a strategy.  All I can say is that it is better to recognize a hopeless path earlier in the game rather than later, and that developing a fluid playstyle may help mitigate bad draws on turns three to six.  Leaving pathways open by not committing to a hard opening strategy can often pay off when a deck draws badly.

(perhaps more later)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 06:55:31 pm by Mean Mr Mustard »
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guided

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 12:32:04 pm »
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I think probably 75% of the time I buy Saboteur it's because I'm clearly behind and have no other hope. Once in a blue moon it even works :)

The one upside of rotten shuffle luck in general is that I get to try really exotic, out-there stuff when it's my only chance to get back in the game. Like recently a full-on switch from a Province deck to a Vineyards deck, buying my first Potion like 3 turns before the end of the game and then pulling the victory out of nowhere. Very satisfying when you win against a competent opponent after getting way behind.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 12:35:16 pm by guided »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 01:54:16 pm »
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I got DESTROYED yesterday on Isotropic. Destroyed.

The opponent went for a Duke/Duchy combo, which he didn't reveal until mid game (he spammed militia and accrued +Buy, +Action cards and some money) early in the game.

The militias were consistently stopping me from reaching gold...but when I bought the first Province, I thought I could maintain momentum. Then of course, once the engine was tuned, he starts gobbling Dutchies and Barons like a machine. It was awful, I think the final score was 69 to 27 (or something like that).

My point is, I should have assessed the board better. My standard noob play, which is to go BM with two or three complementary cards (in this case Chapel and Library) was clearly going to get beat on well-played Duke/Duchy combo. I needed to assess that at the start. I thought that realization jived well with the spirit of the OP, which is to pick a strategy early and stick with it. He had turned on point tracking too, as if he knew the combo would be there? I thought that if you did this, the game did not adjust ratings, but I reviewed the leader board and it clearly did. I HATE point-tracker it ruins one of the game's required skills and I'd like to request that point-tracker games do not count on Iso ratings, perhaps I'll share that on the Iso suggestion thread.

One problem I have is pressure to get my first turn underway, rather than taking a few minutes to assess the board. One thing I might do, is let my opponent know I need a few minutes to read the board (sometimes cards come up that I am very unfamiliar with). After that my pace resumes to normal speed, but I need to resist pressure to just "get going".
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jsh357

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 02:16:39 pm »
+1

One problem I have is pressure to get my first turn underway, rather than taking a few minutes to assess the board. One thing I might do, is let my opponent know I need a few minutes to read the board (sometimes cards come up that I am very unfamiliar with). After that my pace resumes to normal speed, but I need to resist pressure to just "get going".

Anyone who rushes you on the first turn is a jerk.  It's pretty standard to spend a while during the first 2 turns thinking ahead, even when you know all the cards.  I would say don't pressure yourself, as it'll give them time to think about the situation too.
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Razzishi

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2011, 10:32:56 am »
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Is is of utmost importance to consider carefully which cards to buy and how each buy effects the tempo.  Adding treasure slows the tempo of the deck, but is usually a requirement for deck development.  Sometimes the correct move is to <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/26/game-20110926-232417-146aacfb.html>do nothing</a>, as any buy will only disrupt the tempo of the deck.  Each Silver stands between a very strong card and the reshuffle, and it is important to be aware of that when deciding what to do when presented with a weak hand.


Generally when people talk of improving tempo, they mean doing things faster, not slower.  You are disrupting your own tempo early on in order to gain consistency long-term.  A Silver buy does not disrupt the early tempo in your deck because it does not cause you to ever have less coins available until your engine is practically built, and might even help build that engine.  It would give you a practically dead card late game though, so you decided that any potential early gains from having an extra coin early would be outweighed by having a very smooth and consistent deck when it mattered more.

To explain things a bit differently, consider the reason why you want early cycling: to hit your more powerful cards faster.  Why do you want to hit them faster?  So you can either mess with your opponent more, trash more cards, or buy better cards.  You want to do those things in order to improve your own deck at a faster rate than your opponent improves theirs.  There's no point in cycling through your deck faster if all you want to do is cycle through your deck faster.  Buying Silver early on would have increased the overall quality of your deck, or at least been neutral, for around 8 turns in that game.  During those turns you would have had a better, or at least not reduced, opportunity to buy better cards.  While you'd have been drawing your Labs and Coppersmiths slightly less often, you'd potentially have been able to buy more of them.  In particular, if you had bought a Silver in the opening, you'd most likely have hit $4 either turn 3 or 4 and been able to buy an engine card instead of nothing.  There was a slight tempo advantage in that you significantly decreased the chance that you wouldn't hit Feast turn 3 or 4 and so increased the chance your second shuffle included the Lab you eventually Feast for, but you decreased the chances of hitting $4 and $5 those turns; is putting off Feast until turn 5 that bad when you could have bought something instead of nothing the other turns?  Looking at it from a short-term perspective of increasing buying power, not buying Silver is horrible; it only shows its power once the engine is built.

Thus, not buying Silver because of "tempo" is a mischaracterization.  They weren't bought because you they would have negatively effected the long-term consistency of the deck, and weren't particularly needed to reach the coin amounts that were necessary to build the engine you were going for.
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Razzishi

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 10:48:34 am »
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Ok, so I guess I mainly have an issue with your apparent definition of "tempo", which you seem to equate to "speed at which you go through your deck".  Such definition is not particularly consistent with standard definition of tempo in games, in which the important consideration is how fast you improve your position.  Buying Villages in the opening is tempo in the first definition and is a complete lack of tempo in the second (unless you're going for Torturers or similar).  Deck cycling for deck cycling's sake is worthless.  Playing your purchased cards more often is only useful if doing so increases your deck's strength faster than the alternative.
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rinkworks

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2011, 12:18:16 pm »
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Agreed.  To compare with Chess, tempo is used to refer not to how many moves the game is liable to run, but where you stand in the cycle of offense/defense/initiative as players exchange moves.  Typically white, with the first-player advantage, has the initiative and plays offensively, such that Black must play defensively.  But while doing so, Black is always looking for a move that will, for example, both defend AND counterattack, which allows him to gain a tempo.  Contrarily, either player may make a move that isn't immediately pressing in order to set up a future move.  Such a move would be losing a tempo, which is a bad thing on its own, but sometimes a trade-off you have to make when considering the longer-term course of the game.

I'm not sure how exactly the concept applies to Dominion, but a "do nothing" move would be losing a tempo in exchange for future advantage (such as not worsening your deck by making any of the possible buys).  In Chess, players don't have that luxury, as they HAVE to move, even if all possible moves worsen their position (called a "zugzwang"; Chess terminology is intrinsically funny).

MMM: Sorry to fixate on a detail in your article, though.  Your meaning is clear, and I found the information helpful and well-organized.  I'm at the stage where I understand the individual cards pretty well and how to use them, but not so much how to fashion and execute a blanket strategy.  So stuff like this is extremely helpful to me.
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DStu

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2011, 12:21:36 pm »
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"zugzwang"; Chess terminology is intrinsically funny
That's not funny, that is german...
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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2011, 12:24:25 pm »
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"Tempo" in MTG is how many cards your drawing and how many spells you are casting a turn. In comparison, Dominion "Tempo" would be the speed you are getting to VP buys. The standard "Tempo" of a BM deck is 4 Provs by Turn 17.

Tempo should not be related to Cycling, as a BM deck will cycle a lot less than a Village Idiot deck, but the BM deck will always win.

Proper cycling can, however, increase tempo by ensuring that your important cards get played more often. However, this is simply to, as stated above, increase the frequency of VP buys. With this in mind, I stand by tempo in Dominion is the speed at which you will acquire VP (odd wording that may not include Mega Turn strategies).

@rinkworks, doing nothing is sometimes good for the tempo. One bad buy can prevent you from drawing your entire deck.
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rinkworks

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2011, 12:36:07 pm »
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"zugzwang"; Chess terminology is intrinsically funny
That's not funny, that is german...

It's funny AND German.
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rinkworks

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2011, 12:58:37 pm »
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@rinkworks, doing nothing is sometimes good for the tempo. One bad buy can prevent you from drawing your entire deck.

It's not a point I care to press too hard, since the concept seems to apply only fuzzily to Dominion.  But I would say that doing nothing always loses a tempo.  By contrast, buying a card your deck doesn't need or want also loses a tempo AND worsens your future prospects.  The equivalent in chess would be making a ineffectual move that drops the initiative and making a bad move that drops the initiative.  In both cases, you've lost a tempo; in the latter, you've additionally worsened your future prospects.  (Which may mean you'll be forced to lose further tempi [the plural form] in future turns, although that's not yet clear.  Tempo only refers to the present, so you don't gain or lose tempo until the moment you gain or lose it.)

To me, tempo in Dominion would be related to how many turns -- in relation to your opponent -- you're taking to build your engine to the point where you can start buying green -- and, afterwards, the rate at which you are buying that green.  Doing nothing on a turn means you're skipping one of your chances to acquire the next card your deck needs to stay ahead of your opponent.  The same is true of buying a Silver your deck doesn't want just to do something.  Either way, you've lost a tempo.

Sometimes in Dominion, shuffle luck forces you to lose a tempo.  There's just nothing you can do about it.  That's true in Chess as well.  A smart player may maneuver his opponent into having to lose a tempo.  The point is, tempo is really just a count of how many moves ahead or behind your opponent you are.

I agree with you that during the greening stage, it's about the rate at which you acquire VPs.  But specifically it's the rate at which you acquire VPs in relation to your opponent, and moreover you can only measure it in discrete turn numbers.  You can't say "well, my opponent has a fast tempo, but mine is 10% faster, so I overtook him."  You'd say, "It's a fast game, but I had the better deck, so I was able to recover the tempo."

At least, that's how you'd use "tempo" by the strictest definition.  If people here want to twist the definition a bit to refer to a concept that is better suited to the game of Dominion, I don't see any reason to quibble with that.  But without people explicitly agreeing to a standard ahead of time, by no means is it clear or self-evident what the term means to any given reader unless it's used by its strict definition.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:02:23 pm by rinkworks »
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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 01:06:24 pm »
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Tempo in the dominion sense is an undefined term, where tempo in mtg is a defined term.  Applying the mtg definition in an even loosely-similar way to dominion would put the definition of a deck's tempo as :
"The speed of processing through your deck" or "The ability you have to reach the important cards in your deck at faster than the default rate" while applying the dictionary definition to dominion would place tempo as "The rate or pace of X" - which you could then apply to either X=the deck or X=the game.

Both definitions have a reasonable amount of merit, as the terms are ambiguous.  However, I really dislike the idea that matiez posts, that the "tempo" of a deck is at all related to VP acquisition.  It is important to have some idea of when your game will end, but I think that that thought process should be more directly associated with speed, while tempo is a term more associated with an ebb and flow situation in my head.
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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2011, 03:24:16 pm »
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To me, tempo in Dominion would be related to how many turns -- in relation to your opponent -- you're taking to build your engine to the point where you can start buying green -- and, afterwards, the rate at which you are buying that green.
This is close to how I would define it, though I would omit the "in relation to your opponent". If you're going faster than your opponent, you have a tempo advantage, but you can still be going at a slow (absolute) tempo.

I agree that cycling should have nothing to do with it. Tempo should be something that affects everyone and the game as a whole, and deck cycling only affects you going through the physical act of shuffling. To your opponent, it doesn't matter much if you have a lot of good cards or just a few you play a lot. Both have a similar effect on them. They only really care about how soon you can end the game.
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rinkworks

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 03:52:17 pm »
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To me, tempo in Dominion would be related to how many turns -- in relation to your opponent -- you're taking to build your engine to the point where you can start buying green -- and, afterwards, the rate at which you are buying that green.
This is close to how I would define it, though I would omit the "in relation to your opponent". If you're going faster than your opponent, you have a tempo advantage, but you can still be going at a slow (absolute) tempo.

You're defining "speed."  If you're going faster than you're opponent, you have a speed advantage, but you can still be going at a slow (absolute) speed.

Whereas speed is useful for describing the pace of a game as a whole, and/or the pace of the players, absolutely or relative to each other, tempo is more about position.  Whereas speed tells you nothing about who is ahead, tempo can.  If you're on track to win 4 Provinces by turn 16, and your opponent is on track to win 4 Provinces by turn 15, you're behind a tempo.  You can overtake your opponent if you have a speed advantage, because at some point that speed advantage may result in gaining that lost tempo back.

Perhaps some of the confusion is that the word "tempo" in music does basically refer to an ongoing rate/rhythm.  In game theory, it doesn't.  Wikipedia, on tempo in chess:

Quote
In chess, tempo refers to a "turn" or single move. When a player achieves a desired result in one fewer move, he "gains a tempo" and conversely when he takes one more move than necessary he "loses a tempo". Similarly, when one forces his opponent to make moves not according to the initial plan, one "gains tempo" because the opponent wastes moves.
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Toskk

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 05:13:45 pm »
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Just to add a little on the concept of "tempo" in Dominion (and Chess).. "tempo" is typically measured as a function of 'how many turns did it take each player to accomplish x'. It is probably most-easily observed in the Chess 'opening', as one of the basic goals of Chess openings is to develop as many pieces as possible (with a few limits, of course) as quickly as possible. For example, examine this particular Chess opening:

1). White: Pawn to e4 - the King's Pawn moves up to a strong position at the center of the board.
Black: Pawn to e5 - mirror move.
2). White: Knight to f3 - threatening the Pawn at e5.
Black: Knight to c6 - defending the Pawn at e5.
3). White: Pawn to d4 - a.k.a. the Scotch Opening - Game and Gambit varieties possible. Threatens the Pawn at e5, but vulnerable to attack from the same Pawn.
Black: Pawn takes at d4.
4). White: Knight takes at d4 - Material is now equal. The white Knight is threatened by the black Knight at c6, but defended by the Queen.
Black: Knight takes at d4(?) - A classic 'bad' move.
5). White: Queen takes at d4 - The board is now: White Pawn at e4, White Queen at d4. Black has no pieces moved. Thus while material (pieces lost) at this moment is equal, White has effectively moved two pieces to Black's zero, or gained one 'tempo'.

Transitioning over to Dominion, the concept of "tempo" could apply to any goal or objective shared by both/all players.. and there might be lots of possible short- and long-term goals that both players are working toward. For example, how quickly does each player purchase their first Gold? From the Councilroom.com data, a player who hasn't purchased their first Gold by turn 13 has worst-than-50/50 odds of winning the game. Or take the Big Money strategies.. we know that on average a Big Money strategy averages four Province purchases by turn 17. So each turn fewer or greater than 17 could represent one "tempo".
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2011, 06:47:56 pm »
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I think that "tempo" is really too ambiguous of a word to tie it down with one meaning.  The overall game has a tempo, each player's deck has its own tempo, the Kingdom itself has a tempo.

I'd like to expand a bit on the importance of early cycling as a tool to mitigate bad shuffle luck and also as a way to raise the early tempo of deck construction.  Being able to break the mold of 5/5/2~ in turns three through five can drastically improve the tempo of a deck at the cost of a lost economy buy.  Of course it is of utmost importance that the remaining buys add some real weight to the deck; it is pointless to cycle coppers at a loss for coppers. 

Let's start with the example of Familiar: a Potion/(silver)  opening leaves a significant chance that the Potion will show up on turn 5, and the Familiar bought on turn five may not show up until as late as turn ten.  There is also a chance that the Potion will appear with less than $3.  This volatility is the stated reason Theory avoids alchemy.

Consider instead opening Potion/cycler.  Unless the Cycling card is drawn eleventh or twelfth position the deck is guaranteed to draw that all important Potion on turn three or four.  And even if the cycling card misses the second reshuffle the third shuffle will come earlier than it would have.

A more drastic example is University.  Buy a Potion on the first time through a deck, a University on the second, and use the University on the third time through in order to gain a $5 card, which itself doesn't show up until after the third reshuffle.  Adding an opening cycling card can drastically reduce the turns needed before that first $5 card appears.

Now, Silver may or may not add game tempo;  I am inclined to believe that continuing to add Silver is game tempo neutral at best, but let's not argue the point.  Rather, I will make a blanket statement that Silver reduces a deck's tempo so far as forcing important early reshuffles are concerned.  On a low tempo Kingdom adding Silvers is a no brainer because density becomes much more important than speed, but on a Kingdom that has good draw potential adding treasure slows the draw tempo and perhaps even the game tempo as a mass of treasure actually impedes the ability to draw and use engine cards.  It may well be that lots of treasure and a few draw cards is the faster strategy.  However, the deck with more draw power and less treasure will have the better staying power in the end game, and if it can stay competitive will finish stronger.
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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 07:07:55 pm »
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Thus, not buying Silver because of "tempo" is a mischaracterization.
In the context of this game, you are correct.  Buying one Silver would have increased the game tempo in the sense that it would have been easier to accrue Laboratories faster, and the reason I didn't add them was because they didn't fit into my overall plan.  So it was probably a bad example. 

My point stands, however, that <i>doing nothing</i> is sometimes the best move in the interest of maintaining deck and game tempo.  One of the mistakes I see all the time from weaker players is when they use every buy regardless of whether it helps or harms their position.
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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2011, 08:16:48 pm »
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I'd say that tempo was about reducing the time interval between the key activities of your deck. Alternatively, extra buys or extra actions can delivery twice as much key activity in the same time interval (a turn say). If the key activity of your deck is to buy a goons then adding a silver will probably reduce the time taken to buy the goons and adds tempo. Sometimes though the key activity of a deck might be to trash, or gain specific cards, or attack so the silver might just occupy space in the deck and hand, increasing the intervals between the key activities of your deck and decreasing tempo. In those situations you might be better buying wishing wells or pearl divers, cards which add minor purchasing value but increase the tempo of the deck rather than decrease it.

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2011, 01:40:11 am »
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On a low tempo Kingdom adding Silvers is a no brainer because density becomes much more important than speed, but on a Kingdom that has good draw potential adding treasure slows the draw tempo and perhaps even the game tempo as a mass of treasure actually impedes the ability to draw and use engine cards.  It may well be that lots of treasure and a few draw cards is the faster strategy.  However, the deck with more draw power and less treasure will have the better staying power in the end game, and if it can stay competitive will finish stronger.
I feel it is just the opposite. Which is faster depends on the actual setup, but usually BM+X has a better staying power. The draw engine is more consistent in the time period when it is effective; but the stay power is usually lower. Think about village-smithy-remodel in a 2p game of 12 provinces, say; I don't think it now can win against BM+smithies.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2011, 09:14:12 am »
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I don't understand really how a 12 Province 2p game or a village-smithy engine is at all relevant.  Again, it may well be that lots of treasure and a few draw cards is the faster strategy.  The best built decks, when they have time to develop, <i>usually</i> have less treasure and great staying power because they have a deck tempo that would not cycle as fast if choked with Silver.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 09:20:02 am by Mean Mr Mustard »
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timchen

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2011, 01:36:05 pm »
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I think you probably have confused a few concepts. Or it may well be that I don't understand you.

As I said, I am not arguing which strategy is faster (both in the sense of getting to VP buying phase earlier or getting to certain number of provinces faster.) Instead, we are talking about staying power in the end game. Technically, I would usually define staying power as how a strategy will fare, when it is unfortunately involved in a duchy race. This property, I believe, is strongly related to the conceptual simpler one I mentioned in the post above: basically how a strategy can obtain provinces indefinitely suppose there is no supply constraint.

And I am arguing that BM+x will usually have a better staying power comparing with a draw engine, under the constraint that both strategy performs similarly with the constraint of the piles. The constraint is necessary to make the definition of staying power useful as otherwise it is clear that the stronger strategy usually has better staying power. The staying power has nothing to do with how fast you can cycle through as long as you can afford the green cards.

It seems to me what you are arguing for staying power is actually consistency. I have no objection that a draw engine is usually more consistent at grabbing the first few provinces it needs to win. This however, has nothing to do with how long it can stay effective if it continues to go green.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2011, 01:53:16 pm »
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In my limited experience, the engine decks have more insulation from a poor draw as the game lengthens.

BM+X has a tendency to have to stall later and is really frustrating when you get two draws in a row that paralyze you.

I play BM+X a lot...and it does work, but its key is to snag two provinces while the engine is still being built and then staying ahead. You often wind up just one ahead sometimes...but recovering from two provinces down is hard, harder than I think some engine builders realize. It can be done, but what some engine builders fail to realize is how much I can go toe-to-toe in the middle rounds...so you need a +12 VP turn at some point, and that's not easy. At a minimum you need two +9 VP turns to catch up.

But what kills you in BM+X a lot is you get two draws in a row that go nowhere. A poor draw at end of your deck, then another poor draw at the first reshuffle. Sure, you'll get a Province for sure on the next draw, but you've now given up two turns and then engine not only recovers, it surges ahead to win.

I'd wager if you ran BM+X versus a known engine in simulators and looked at games BM+X lose, most often, its because late in the game two consecutive turns produced little to no victory purchases. I feel, BM+X is a superb baseline to test any strategy against, because it is a solid strategy. It's a noobish strategy to be sure, but it does win. I am a total noob at this game, I play BM+X or BM+X+X a lot and I beat engines a lot. I don't play advanced players yet (I am only level 11), but I still feel testing against BM+X is a really worthwhile test.

Strong attack boards, are a different lemon though...as the article on "Popular Cards" demonstrates.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 01:55:37 pm by ChaosRed »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Advanced Dominion: How to Get Played
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2011, 07:43:17 am »
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I've fallen behind on catching up with this topic and I just tried to do so. I got bored when we were arguing over the definition of the word "tempo". Has there been any actual strategy discussion since then or is the whole thread an argument about a definition which isn't really relevant to anything at all?
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