Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9  All

Author Topic: Dota 2  (Read 45740 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2013, 12:24:22 pm »
0

I'm not sure whether you're trying to imply this, but the existence if counters plant unique to LOL.
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2013, 04:06:33 pm »
0

I think you mean "the existence of counterplay is unique to LOL"

I am not implying that it is unique to LOL but I believe counterplay and counter picking is much more important in LOL. Simply because outplaying your opponent is less of an option. At a certain skill level(top 50-80% of players) champion selection is about 60% of the game. I was actually implying that while different I do not believe one to be superior.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2013, 04:21:45 pm »
0

I do know that counterpicking is important in LoL. Such thing exists in DotA too, I am not sure how much influcental it is(I do not play competitively, and I've watched a little of pro-play). I do know that, unlike in LoL (i believe), pro-DotA has 5 bans, then 5 picks, then 5 more bans, then 5 picks - this gives me an opinion that it matters a lot, too. Probably not as much as in LoL, though.

And you have the same Kat example in DotA too (Let's say, with Crystal Maiden being Kat). Though, CM could buy a magic immunity item to counter-coutnerpicks, and so on.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 04:47:00 pm by Grujah »
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2013, 04:44:28 pm »
0

Actually, it goes 4 bans, 6 picks, 6 bans, 4 picks.

Btw, I don't think a game being 80% decided after the picks sounds very interesting.
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2013, 04:49:04 pm »
0

I believe it is actually 2(4)bans 3(6)picks 4(8)bans then 2(4) picks each(total)
In LOL there is 3(6)bans 5(10) picks
They both follow the pattern of 1 pick 2 picks(alternating) 1 pick with first ban/first pick going to one team and last pick/ban going to the other.

The main difference being 8 bans come after you have picked 3 of your champions in dota. This allows for more disruption of team comps and forces players to play more specific counters as in X champ counters Y champ versus X team counters Y team. Again, different but neither is superior.

My understanding, is that as you pointed out items counter quite a bit of things in dota and item advantage gained through early wins via individual skill and play is more important than in LOL where counters through champion skills. This is what creates the difference of skill in the two games. Dota requires more champion specific knowledge and early skill to gain items and counter through to mid and late via that route. LOL requires more overall knowledge of every champion and ability to counter team strategies late game with proper teamwork and decision making.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2013, 10:30:23 am »
0

Dota goes:
Ban A -> Ban B -> Ban A -> Ban B
Pick A -> Pick B -> Pick B -> Pick A -> Pick A -> Pick B
Ban A -> Ban B -> Ban A -> Ban B->Ban A -> Ban B
Pick A -> Pick B -> Pick A -> Pick B

I don't get what you mean with "Dota requires more champion specific knowledge and early skill to gain items and counter through to mid and late via that route. LOL requires more overall knowledge of every champion and ability to counter team strategies late game with proper teamwork and decision making." First of all, please stop using "champion" when talking about Dota heroes. Significant early advantages are seldom gained via superior individual skill (though of course that's possible if the skill differnde is large enough, but rather is a result of strategy and decisionmaking. You won't stand a chance if not knowing the abilities of all heroes in the game. I don't get what you mean by "hero specific knowledge" that is required.
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2013, 10:49:46 am »
0

I mean that the way you work as an individual has more impact in dota than it does in LOL, hence the steeper learning curve and more punishing game play of dota. The way you work as a team has more impact in LOL than it does in dota. Note I am not saying blah blah blah teamwork isn't needed in dota, I am pointing out what I believe to be the minute differences between the two games that lead them to be very equal games but enjoyed by somewhat different people. Apologies for calling heros champions, I know they are called that I assumed using champion was fine as the two names stand for identical things. If you want specifics LOL has
BAN A -> Ban B -> Ban B -> Ban A -> Ban A -> Ban B
Pick A -> Pick B -> Pick B -> Pick A -> Pick A -> Pick B -> Pick B -> Pick A -> Pick A -> Pick B
This is exactly what I said, 1 pick followed by 2 picks(alternating A & B) then 1 pick, team A gets first pick/ban and team B gets last pick/ban.

Do you disagree with anything I am saying specifically? It seems as though you are just trying to discredit the things I am saying.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2013, 11:01:02 am »
0

Regarding picks: i just wanted to correct what you said (because it actually is slightly different) and didn't find a quicker way to put it. I agree it doesn't matter that much.

I'm diasgreeing with you saying that Dota requires much hero specific knowledge (at least in comparison to other things required).
It's hard to discuss how important idividual aspects are on the outcome of a game, it always depends on how hig both sides skill in these areas.

BTW: Have you actually played Dota and/or Dota 2?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 11:02:55 am by Watno »
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2013, 11:23:53 am »
0

Oh, I see where I was wrong involving bans, sincere apologies. I have played dota but not for some time, I watched my friend play dota 2 when deciding whether or not to get it. But I do watch dota 2 pro streams, I love the professional esports scene and watch almost all pro esports, Starcraft hurts my head a bit(its very hard for me to grasp)

I simply meant that dota players benefit more from being really good with there hero where as LOL players benefit more from being really good with shot-calling(knowing when to take different objectives and guiding your team to do that)

Have you played LOL?
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2013, 11:59:11 am »
0

I have not played dota or dota2, but my understanding was that counterpicking is MUCH more important in dota.  The heroes in dota have much more powerful and varied abilities than those in lol -- real game changers like super long aoe stuns and such.  The balance comes from the ability to counterpick with real hard counters.  Correct me if I'm wrong!

In lol, I'm not sure there are any actual hard counters.  There are always ways to counter play, even with weaker picks.
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2013, 12:31:52 pm »
0

I haven't played Lol.
with shot calling are you referring to "stun that guy now!" or "let's go gang that lane now" types of calls? I think both are quite important in Dota, but not really qualified to compare.
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2013, 12:58:40 pm »
0

From my understanding you are correct ehalc, this is why I believe individual hero knowledge and skill are important in Dota where knowledge of team comps and counter play are more important in LOL. As you said there are no hard counters but take this example. A dive comp(burst damage gap closers) is supposed to counter a poke comp(long range) but a dive comp is often week at taking objectives due to low sustained damage and the poke comp with enough vision can take advantage of that easily killing the dive comp. I could be wrong and similar scenarios may exist in Dota but I have felt from watching that individual players can have a lot of affect on the game in Dota. Also I don't know the difference between pro play and casual play on Dota at all were as I can speak of the differences in LOL.

For shot calling I mean more of what I described above, knowing what your team should do in different scenarios depending on where you are at in the game and whether your team has more or less gold.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2013, 01:32:12 pm »
0

In what situation can the dive comp kill the poke comp?
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2013, 02:00:59 pm »
0

The dive comp wins open teamfight and wins when defending a siege. You would typically take a poke comp when you felt the other team is more skilled than you, you use range to poke them down and win drawn out siege battles. The dive comp is picked as a counter because it doesn't allow the poke comp to get into a long siege, the minute the poke comp begins sieging the dive comp can use gap closers to "dive" into the poke comp and kill them. Hence why the poke comp has to adjust and take advantage of objective control as I showed earlier. The dive comp would respond by removing vision for the poke comp on objectives and rather than take the objective wait for the poke comp to come and force a teamfight. This is an example of two of the many team comps and how they interact. Being aware of what your team should be doing and what the enemy team is trying to do is the single most important thing in LOL.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2013, 02:17:54 pm »
0

What exactly are objectives?
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2013, 02:38:52 pm »
0

What exactly are objectives?

Oh right!  That's probably one of the bigger differences between lol and dota.  Objectives are just things on the map that both teams want to take advantage of or control.  Objectives that I think are also in dota would be the towers in the lanes.  Taking down towers gives you more map control as well as earning your team a nice boost in gold.

lol has additional objectives.  The two major ones are Baron Nashor and the Dragon, which are large neutral monsters.  The dragon gives a significant amount of gold to the entire team while Baron grants gold, experience, and a major buff to all living players (extra AP, AD and regen) on the team.  The boosts are quite significant so the objectives are highly contested. 

Other objectives include smaller neutral camps that also give buffs, albeit only to a single player.  There is one in each of the four jungle quadrants.  Two of them are the blue buff, which grants the holder CDR and enhanced mana regen.  The other two are red buff, enhancing the holder's auto-attack with a slow and a true damage DoT.  Early on the buffs are usually taken by the jungler.  Later on, blue buff is usually given to the mage and red buff is taken by the AD carry.  Players will sometimes sneak into the enemy jungle to steal these buffs.
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2013, 03:07:00 pm »
0

What exactly are objectives?

objectives are the important minions/structures(usually excluding towers which can be sieged/defended)

Golem & Lizard: So each team has a blue buff(mana regen&cdr) and a red buff(bonus damage&slow) these are a large minion that spawns at 1:55 and and when killed grants the buff for 2:30, the monster respawns after 5 min. This is the lowest tier objective as it is least important though stealing it at lvl 1 can destroy an enemy team. An invade comp can successfully pull this off against almost any team but is generally weak throughout the game.

Dragon: a large minion that spawns in the middle of the map(lower side) that spawns at 2:30 sec and has a 6 min respawn time. It gives the killing team 190 gold to each player. It is rather strong but can be killed early depending on how many players of a team come to help. This is considered the main objective early game. Vision on it is important and ability to get your entire team there is necessary can both secure it for your team and scare the enemy team off of it.

Towers: I will include these as later into the game towers do give the team aoe gold and backdooring/split pushing is a strategy. This is when a single champion on a team excells at escaping from enemies or winning in a 1v1 scenario. To make it easier allies have a split push strat enemies do not. The player then stays in a lane attempting to take a tower regardless of what the rest of the allies are doing, this makes an enemy come to stop him forcing a 4vs4 fights or better yet 4v3(2 enemies often have to leave to stop the split push) The shot-calling that comes from this is knowing what team will benefit most. Often times if the allies are split pushing the enemies can group up and fight 4vs5. If they win the fight and kill all 4 allies not split pushing they come out on top. If the enemies have at least 2 people left alive from the 4v5 fight they can push down the allies tower faster than the one ally split pushing.

Baron Nashor: This is the primary and main objective late game. It spawns at 15 min and has a 7 min respawn time. It when killed it gives the entire team 300 gold and a buff that lasts 4 min and gives AP/AD HP/Mana regen. The baron is extremely powerful as is its buff. It is located in the middle of the map(top side) and is heavily contested as it can make or break a game. This is the objective I was speaking of when I was talking about poke vs dive comp.

Inhibitors: these are located in the base at the opening to each lane and are guarded by a tower. Killing them causes your team to spawn stronger minions for 5 min. These are most often sieged but can be susceptible to splitpush/backdoor strats once the tower is killed. Backdooring is simply sneaking your way undetected through the enemy jungle to take the inhibitor you often die for this but it can be worth it if your team can take advantage of the 5 min of super minions.

ppe: thanks ehalc now I feel like an over explanatory dick!
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2013, 03:50:19 pm »
0

You mean Runes,  Roshan, Towers and Barracks, right?   ;)
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2013, 03:53:12 pm »
0

Ancients are not that different from normal creeps. They're not that different from other creeps. But if one team has an advantage in map control, they can easily farm all the creeps and get an economical advantage.
Logged

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2013, 04:00:34 pm »
0

I promptly changed that to Runes as I realized it too. Runes are mostly like blue/red buffs.
Logged

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2013, 05:41:19 pm »
0

Yea, barracks obviously = inhibitors. But ancient creeps, runes, and roshan are very different than dragon, buffs, and baron.

Heres what I think and correct me if I am wrong on anything.

Red buff and blue buff in league are really like the ancient(maybe large) camps in dota. There is a red and blue buff on in both teams jungle. They cannot be killed at lvl one without 2 allies and an ability smite(long cooldown damage to minions) Runes can simply be picked up and are not really points of contest, especially as there is one on the map every 2 min. Blue and red buff have a 5 min respawn and so especially at around 7 min in the game, stealing away the enemy teams red or blue is a really strong tactic(having two blue buffs on your team and none on the other is huge)

Roshan is VERY different from baron. How easy is roshan to kill?(I actually am not sure of this) Roshan drops aegis, one hero, one use ressurection. This has some impact but the hero with it can still be caught alone/focused, or the enemy team can force it out and disengage. Main point being it has no map effect, it helps the team but mainly one hero. After being killed three times it also drops cheese(So how often does this come into play) cheese is again one champion one use sorta a super potion. I see how a team with both can be very strong in a team fight but again aside from a single teamfight these items don't do much.

Baron is killed once or twice a game, I have rarely seen baron killed 4 times in my 3000 games played. So for reference, baron can almost never be solo'd by any champion. Depending on team comps during a normal game an attempt to get baron will leave an entire team around half heath which is why fighting while a team is trying to take baron is so good. The buff baron gives is team wide, at least all living teammates. It gives ad and ap which makes everyone on the team stronger. Once a team has baron buff the enemy team can almost never win a team fight and are forced to hide under towers. On top of that baron gives a health and mana regen buff to the entire team. This allows a team to group up and siege a tower, they can just hit it a few times each minion wave comes and heal up any damage they take due to the buff.

So baron, buffs, and dragon are a bit more important and game changing then in dota. This is why I believe individual skill has a greater effect in dota.
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Ozle

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3625
  • Sorry, this text is personal.
  • Respect: +3360
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2013, 06:03:47 pm »
0

Sounds like WOW battlefields......*runs*
Logged
Try the Ozle Google Map Challenge!
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7466.0

Sullying players Enjoyment of Innovation since 2013 Apparently!

mcmcsalot

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • Shuffle iT Username: mcmcsalot
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2013, 06:09:34 pm »
0

Sounds like WOW battlefields......*runs*

Warcraft 3 and heros of newerth. They are all the same game. We are discussing the interestingly minute diferences that cause the player bases to be quite different
Logged
Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Ozle

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3625
  • Sorry, this text is personal.
  • Respect: +3360
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2013, 06:10:06 pm »
0

Not Warcraft, World of Warcraft battlefields...
Logged
Try the Ozle Google Map Challenge!
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7466.0

Sullying players Enjoyment of Innovation since 2013 Apparently!

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Dota 2
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2013, 06:42:52 pm »
0

Warcraft 3 is not the same as Dota, though Dota was originally a custom map in Warcraft 3. But saying that they are the same is comparable to saying that Checkers and Chess are the same because they are both played on a chess board.

Runes are contested early in the game, especially cause most mid heroes use a bottle, which gives them hp / mana regeneration and can be refilled by picking up a rune.

Roshan is quite easy to kill starting from the midgame, but it usually takes a a while. Also the area were you fight him is quite narrow, which makes teams attacking him an easy target for attacks from the oppnent team. Therefore, Roshan is mostly only attacked if you have an extreme mapcontrol advantage, or just won a teamfight or picked off an imprtant enemy hero. The aegis he drops can often make the difference between being able to break into the opponent's base are not.

There are some lineups that allow you to take out roshan at lvl 1, and some heroes who can solo him at 10 minutes into the game with the right items. Howver, that will rarely work out outside of low-level games, since your opponents will notice this.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9  All
 

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 20 queries.