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[Watno]

Anyone here playing Dota 2? I just started again after taking a break from it.
I also have lots of spare invites if anyone its interested.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Dota 2?

[Ozle]

Dota 2?

Yeah, its the sequel to Dota 1

[Drab Emordnilap]

Dota 2?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dota_2

[theory]

I just got into League of Legends.  Dota continues to scare me for now.  But if you're interested in getting into a MOBA like LoL or Dota, I highly recommend this series of articles:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-10-the-dota-2-experience-part-one

I get it now.

Here's your reason to play Dota 2, a reason Dota 2 players don't articulate because they're too busy playing Dota 2 and, frankly, the last thing you want on your team is more noobs.

Dota 2 is fencing.

That's the skill, and the appeal. I finally see it. You're fighting back and forth down these lanes, looking for an opening in the other heroes' defense. The other guy's too close to your tower, or too far from his friend, his ultimate skill's on cooldown, his health is low. Fights in other games last seconds. Fights in Dota 2 are dramatic; entire minutes of feints and narrow escapes. Duels that can span forests, roads and rivers without coming to an end.

[Grujah]

Played DotA years ago, was quite active, was a beta tester too, and so on, but sucked a lot.

Took a looooong break.

Now, started playing recently (few weeks ago), I am still a noob, fairly decent in automaches as don't get all that good players on my/opposing team.

grujah is my nick there, add me, I'd like to play

@Avatar is Chaos Knight's passive ability.

Dota is miles better than LoL, which my brother plays and I know that game very well just from watching it for months (years?)

[Ozle]

PVP in UO used to be like that, some times the battles would take ages with attacks and counters if the players were prepared. Took real skill and timing.

[Grujah]

I just got into League of Legends.  Dota continues to scare me for now.  But if you're interested in getting into a MOBA like LoL or Dota, I highly recommend this series of articles:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-10-the-dota-2-experience-part-one

I get it now.

Here's your reason to play Dota 2, a reason Dota 2 players don't articulate because they're too busy playing Dota 2 and, frankly, the last thing you want on your team is more noobs.

Dota 2 is fencing.

That's the skill, and the appeal. I finally see it. You're fighting back and forth down these lanes, looking for an opening in the other heroes' defense. The other guy's too close to your tower, or too far from his friend, his ultimate skill's on cooldown, his health is low. Fights in other games last seconds. Fights in Dota 2 are dramatic; entire minutes of feints and narrow escapes. Duels that can span forests, roads and rivers without coming to an end.

Article is pure awesomeness

[theory]

Explain why Dota is so much better than LoL.  My impression is that Dota has a significantly more toxic community, a steeper learning curve, and is a lot less popular.  The main draw for me in LoL is that I already have over a dozen friends that actively play it, whereas I have far fewer that play Dota.

[Watno]

sent you a friend invite grujah, maybe we can play a bit later.

@Dota vs LOL: Well, basically all Dota players agree that Dota is better, so it must be true
Tbh, I've never actually tried LOL, always been content with Dota.

[Grujah]

Wall of text incoming.

tl;dr - Dota is more skill intensive, punishing and things aren't granted but need to be earned.


First, I disagree on toxicity of community. What I've actually seen so far, LoL has a way bigger problem with "decline of civility" than DotA. Mainly because playerbase is younger. As for popularity, DotA did lose quite many players in this Dota -> Dota 2 transition, while new players hopped onto LoL-train. Old DotA players seem to be getting back, though, me included. I do not follow LoL pro scene, but I DotA one is very, very active.

Steeper learning curve is true, but, I don't see that as only a bad thing.

First, LoL has way more grinding outside the game. You can't play any hero unless you pay, same goes for runes and Masteries - as a noob, you are, for some reason, already handicapped going after a more veteran player, just a game start. But, once you get most of hte things unlocked, it vanishes. Still, I don't see why Masteries and runes need to be grinded for.

But, more importantly, it's the game itself. To me, sometimes it's like DnD 3.5 vs 4.0. DotA is way more punishing, and LoL has too many things given for granted. Also, I do think DotA is more skill intensive.
Like, in LoL, every hero has a access to Flash ("Blink" in DotA) - which is almost always taken - and another skill, whichever you think fits the best and fixes one of your weaknesses usually (also runes). Plus, many more heroes actually have inherit flashlike abilities, and couples with brushes - getting in and out seem much easier and is kinda taken for granted.
In DotA you can get any hero a Blink Dagger which costs resources and inventory space. It makes it a way more fearful and unique ability when you really need to work for it and not everybody can access it easily.
It is like that with many other stuff, this is an example that irks me the most.

Mana management is a breeze in LoL. The sheer relation between spell cost and amount of mana is MUCH, much tighter in DotA (for example, most Strenght heroes cannot cast more than 1 or 2 spells without depleting their mana pool) - again, this makes using your abilities only when needed and not wasting then a skill that is much more valued in DotA. Too many heroes take it for granted and can just spam spells with little consequence (some don't even use mana at all).

Dying is punished harder, as you lose gold in progress. It might be a bad thing, might be a good.

Laning is, I believe, harder. You actually need to deny your own creeps, I am not sure but last hitting seems a bit harder (or maybe I'm just bad at it) and generally it is much more easier to keep a lane given the surplus mana and also free abilities that save your butt.

I am not completely sure on LoL items, I know that DotA actually has a lot of activated ones - .which, to extend, make up for "Masteries" and actually need to be worked for. I think LoL's are mostly passive. I did dislike this creep of activated items that happened, but I do support it now.

I am not too thrilled about their skill system either, I didn't play much so I don't know heroes too well, but I believe there are too many slows, blinks and nukes among heroes - and many heroes that wouldn't get such abilities in DotA - do. Also, there are some skills that certain heroes have in DotA that they lack in LoL (creep conversion/sacrificing, for example) and usually I like DotA's choices better when it comes down to it. Not that all of LoLs are terrible, they have a fair share of great/unique ones that DotA perhaps misses (though, they aren't adding any till they convert the whole DotA 1 to new engine first).

Generally, there are many more things to manage in DotA, making it harder, but way more rewarding.


The thing that I dislike about DotA 2 the most is that, out of legacy reasons, they retained too many of WC3 engine quirks that make DotA work unintitively sometimes. I.E. too many spells or abilities break some game rules, most about what can go through magic resistance, magic immunity, armor, damage reduction and so on. There are too many of these "Well, it works like that, but this skill and that skill still circumvent that and work differently in a small, but sometimes very relevant way."

[theory]

See, to me, your arguments seem like arguments in favor of whichever one you prefer already.  I think denying is lame, but probably if I were a Dota player I'd think it essential.  Similarly I think LoL has the right mana balance, since your enemies now pose more of a threat to you if they can spam you, and you still have cooldown to think about.

I do agree that the outside-the-game grinding is objectively a little annoying.  But TBH, it's nice to have a different rotation of free champs each week.  It's not like I plan to play > 100 different champions each week, and forcing me to focus on some different ones is kind of fun.

[Grujah]

See, to me, your arguments seem like arguments in favor of whichever one you prefer already.

Well, this is true, this is why I think one is better. I dunno how or if I can be completely objective, those are 2 different games, each person has it's own preferences.


In similar manner I can argue with M:tG is much better than Yu-gi-oh, (though, difference in quality here is MUCH bigger), some avid Yu-Gi-Oh player will still always prefer their, much worse system.

Oh yeah, and I actually have way more friends playing DotA than LoL.

[Grujah]

Similarly I think LoL has the right mana balance, since your enemies now pose more of a threat to you if they can spam you, and you still have cooldown to think about.

In both game they pose a threat, it just than in LoL i think with most heroes you can harass constantly with spells and not worry too much. (It seems like so, esp when my bro plays, let say, Oriana,Diana, Ezrael or Cho-Gath, for example) In DotA, you can easily run out of steam and need to balance harassing vs conserving mana more, or get a way to ensure you can spam like an idiot. 

[theory]

Well it would be like saying, "BSG is better than The Resistance because their traitors don't know who each other are".  It's not actually a reason that BSG is better, it's just something different between the two.  If you play lots of BSG you probably think that the Resistance mechanic is bad for the game, and if you play lots of Resistance you probably think the BSG mechanic is bad for the game.  The games are fundamentally different because of that difference, so it's comparing apples and oranges.

So for example, the out-of-game grinding, that's a 100% objective reason why Dota is better.  And the fact that LoL has a better tutorial, that's a 100% objective reason why LoL is better.  You won't find anyone who prefers Dota because it has a crappier tutorial.  But for example, the fact that Dota has hypercarries where LoL does not, well, that depends on whatever game style you are used to.

[Watno]

Note that the Dota 2 tutorial is still being developed.

[eHalcyon]

@Grujah #10, The lol pro scene is very active.  The community is not actually so bad because Riot is very actively working to improve it with various initiatives.

As far as grinding goes... I suppose that is kind of true?  But runes and masteries don't matter THAT much, and the heroes are unlocked just by playing more.  It actually doesn't take that long.  Rotating free roster helps.

I don't know about lol giving things for granted.  You use Flash as an example, but the cooldown on it is immense.  I looked up Blink Dagger and it has a 14s cooldown?  The cooldown of Flash is 5 minutes.  You have to use it with care.  Not to mention, if it is easier for players to get in and out, then you have to be that much more careful about catching out another player so that they are unable to escape, and you have to be careful about getting caught yourself.

On mana, a compelling argument is that having a larger mana pool (relative to cost) makes the game more fun.  You have these special abilities, you want to use them.  They are still significant enough that most cannot just freely spam, at least until the late game.  It's a matter of scale, anyway.  You say in #13 that DotA's system means you have to balance harassing vs conserving mana.  It's the same in league -- you can't just press every button immediately when a spell comes off cooldown.  You WILL still run out of mana.  But because you CAN use spells more often, there is interaction in the lane in the way you harass each other.  I suppose DotA gets more lane interaction via creep denial?

LoL has a fair mix of active and passive items.

I think theory has the right of it in post #11.  There are differences between the games and they can be pros or cons depending on the player.

[Watno]

Well, you don't need spells to harrass.

[Grujah]

On mana, a compelling argument is that having a larger mana pool (relative to cost) makes the game more fun.  You have these special abilities, you want to use them. 

I think theory has the right of it in post #11.  There are differences between the games and they can be pros or cons depending on the player.

First line, IMO, this is like DnD 3.5 vs 4.0 comparison.

Blink dagger is actually quite an investment, as it is an item that gives no other bonuses and is fairly expensive. You really need to need it bad to get it. It's different.

But we can argue this for hours, the bottom line is:
"There are differences between the games and they can be pros or cons depending on the player."

[eHalcyon]

Here's a pretty interesting back and forth:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/02/27/face-off-league-of-legends-vs-dota-2/

Not done reading through it, but it seems to lay out differences very reasonably to help completely newbies decide which game is more their flavour.

[Watno]

Just out of interest: does flash get disabled when you take damage like blink dagger?

[eHalcyon]

Just out of interest: does flash get disabled when you take damage like blink dagger?

No.  But I think the blink distance is much smaller.  I'm not sure because I don't know how the units work with dota.  With flash, if you want to use it as an escape by blinking over a wall, you usually have to be right beside it or your flash won't carry you over.

[RTT]

Yes i am playing Dota2. Not as frequently at the moment but from time to time. I like it very much 

[Grujah]

I think it flashes you in direction you are facing, kinda like Force Staff.

[mcmcsalot]

As a 4 year league of legends player I can say quite a bit about the game.

I think one of the most important thinks is toxicity I the community. I have heard that Dota is worse and I think 2 years ago that would have been true. Now as ehalc said, riot has but a lot of effort into the pro scene, it is the largest esport in the world with the largest prize pool/viewership/and sponsors. With this, the game has exploded in popularity and stolen the "less dedicated" player bases of Dota and Starcraft, this is mainly the reason for the community decline as less dedicated players are more likely to rage or quit. So I would say Dota community is friendlier to newer players but league has a great community if you can find friends to play with, everytime you meet someone who was nice or played well friend them, and ask them to play agai some time, soon enough you will have at least 3 people to play with all the time and the community problem is solved.

Next ill address the learning curve. Lol has made it its goal to be as open to new players as posible. This makes the game simpler then Dota and for the very dedicated gamer especially Starcraft crossovers, you may find lol to be to simple. The thing that counters that is the idea that you must buy champions and runes. Runes are a bit of an issue, you need them to play at a top level, but I have played for three of my four years using 2 rune pages which doesn't take long to get. The fact that you buy champions is a direct counter to higher skill level I Dota. Dota you play to learn and perfect your key combos, lol you play to unlock new content and collect all the champs. Much like a
Fighter/shooter vs. rpg/adventure both are great and appeal to different players. I personally have 3 of the 110(could be off) left to buy and am so excited to get to that landmark.

I think the last thing to address would be play style specifically. Dota is heavily key/skill intensive. Lol is heavily counter/thought intensive. Dota punishes much harder for mistakes and really tests your skills in when to use abilities when to cs vs when to deny. League allows for many mistakes, and yes has quite a few manaless champions that require you to just spam abilities to farm, I will use the example of katarina. She is a high damage burst Mage with no mana who can farm very easily and is not punished for using any skills wrong. When you want to fight someone you press q,e(on them), w, r. However, where league makes its impact is countering. Katarina's damage comes from her ultimate which you press r and she begins to spin dealing damage to 3
People around her for a few seconds. If she is stunned or displaced in any way, her ultimate cancels and stops dealing damage. Basically if you see a kat on the other team simply pick a character with a stun and you stop all her damage every fight. Now as the katarina player you must wait till you see the stun has been used and you are safe, or combine your power with another champion that has an aoe stun. That one tiny example of one champion that has a direct and simply counter. Many champions have much more complicated ways of countering that involve very reactive play.

I'm summary I would say league I legends has a very low learning curve with a poor community, but can become a great community if played with a group of friends, and becomes extremely skilled at high levels of play due to counter play and reactivity. Dots has a steeper learning curve involving highly skilled play and a more dedicated player base/support system. Both have strong deturrents to new players as well as high rewards for players that dedicate themselves to the game.

That being said I love league to death and play nothing but it, my summoner name is mcmcsalot and I play on NA server. I absolutely love helping people to learn the game and adding intelectual friendly people to my usual group of about 12 people who play regularly. Look forward to seeing you all out there on the rift!