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[Hamlet]

And I mean that in the best possible way.
Anyhow, I was thinking about a card that allows players to draw old cards from the trash. What good would that be? How about keeping curses in play? Now this could lead to longer games, but I think this is an interesting area to investigate.
Here's a sample card for the idea.

[Shinigami]
Action
Cost: 5
+2 Cards
Shuffle the trash pile and place it upside down. Each player draws two cards from it and adds to their hand. Replace the trash pile face up. You may trash up to two cards.

Obviously not perfect (and possbly even broken,) but what do you think? Should trashed curses and coppers stay trashed?

[guided]

Even more situational than Counting House and extremely, pointlessly high-variance even when useful 

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any way to fish cards out of the trash that would actually be good for the game of Dominion.

[play2draw]

What guided said. Also, if this card is in a game where there is no trashing, then this card is most definitely taking up space; a $5 moat when there are no attack cards.

Also, immediately shuffling a deck every time a card is played is not an especially good idea. Philosopher's Stone, while a neat card, is almost reviled for this very reason.

[rinkworks]

My thoughts at the very end of the first post here:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0

The problem is such a card would be useless on boards with no trashing and useless on most boards WITH trashing (because only junk winds up there).  On boards with Salvager/Remodel/other-trash-for-benefit, it's useless until people have built up their hands to be able to trash good cards, at which point trash-retrieval becomes insanely overpowered.   Or...still useless, if the very presence of such a card dissuades people from trashing stuff for benefit in the first place.  I guess Saboteur/Swindler would synergize with such a thing.  But a well-designed card works on any board, not just a board with only a single-digit number of other particular kingdom cards present.

If you're REALLY determined to try to make a trash-retrieval card work, the only way to do it I can conceive of is to make an alternate function of the card allow people to trash stuff for benefit -- and somehow make that worth their while, even at the risk of an opponent later acquiring the valuable card they trashed.  If both features were combined on the same card, you could -- at least in theory -- come up with something that would work in any kingdom, not just one with the right other trashers also in it.

And even then, the presence of other trashers could still unbalance the thing.

As an example of what I'm thinking, it might be something like this:

Garbage
$? - Action
Choose one:
- Trash a card from your hand.  If you do, +3 Cards, and +$ equal to the coin cost of the trashed card.
- Or, gain a card from the trash and discard your hand.

Disclaimer:  I'm sure that card doesn't work either!  This is just a top-of-my-head idea that I don't think could actually work and don't intend to put any effort into trying to make work.  But in theory, an idea like that might be tweakable into working condition.  The idea is to provide a really good incentive for people to trash stuff for benefit, so people will trash cards worth having, AND to penalize pulling cards out of the trash, so as not to disincentivize people from trashing stuff in the first place.  It's a tough proposition.

[chwhite]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any way to fish cards out of the trash that would actually be good for the game of Dominion.

There's got to be a way to do it.  My thinking is that perhaps you could buy cards out of the trash Black Market-style, and attach it to a card that trashes, so that there's sure to be a trash to buy stuff out of.  Here's a possible basic implementation.

Rag-And-Bone Man
Cost 4
$1, Trash a card from your hand.  You may choose to look through the Trash and buy a card from it immediately, putting it in your hand.

I was also thinking about a version which gave you $2 and didn't let you put the trash in your hand, but that might be a bit strong just for the trashing (compare with Salvager or Moneylender).  This version is a weak trasher but may do a better job enabling trash shenanigans, especially for, say, picking up Silvers which have been Salvaged or Apprenticed.  It shouldn't be too weak of a trasher, though, since most of time it's going to get bought for the trashing ability.  And, heck, picking up a Copper might actually be useful for those $7 hands.  The parameters have to be futzed with, and maybe it's too boring, but I'm pretty certain it's not bad for Dominion.

[rinkworks]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any way to fish cards out of the trash that would actually be good for the game of Dominion.

There's got to be a way to do it.

You posted this as I was editing my own post, just above yours, with thoughts along these lines.  Your card is right to combine the functions of trashing and trash-retrieval, but it has no incentive for the player to trash anything anybody might want.

I suspect you're right, that there IS a way to do it.  But it just seems so delicate and finicky.  For me, the idea is so not worth the trouble.

[chwhite]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any way to fish cards out of the trash that would actually be good for the game of Dominion.

There's got to be a way to do it.

You posted this as I was editing my own post, just above yours, with thoughts along these lines.  Your card is right to combine the functions of trashing and trash-retrieval, but it has no incentive for the player to trash anything anybody might want.

I suspect you're right, that there IS a way to do it.  But it just seems so delicate and finicky.  For me, the idea is so not worth the trouble.

My thinking is that, most of the time, the card is just going to be used for trashing, and should be at least good enough to work that way without any retrieval.  But then it has an extra benefit that "comes alive" when, say, Swindler or Salvager or Apprentice is on the board, sort of like how Black Market can enable shenanigans with double-Tactician or in Library chains.

The clause "put the retrieved card in your hand" also increases the chance you would use this ability, because if you have a $7 hand in the endgame then maybe you actually want to buy those trashed Coppers.

(I also really like that particular side benefit of BM, and think it would work nicely on another card as well.)

[rinkworks]

A card that is okay 99% of the time and "comes alive" 1% of the time doesn't strike me as great balance.  But I acknowledge the distinction between high variance and fine power combos is a fine line.

But I'm a little doubtful it ever would "come alive."  If a trash-retrieval card is on the table, I'm not going to be making a strategy out of Apprentices and Salvagers.  It would be like deciding to go Chapel/Big Money after my opponent has just opened Pirate Ship.

[Hamlet]

My initial idea for this was to use the Trash as an endless supply to punish people trashing cards they don't want (coppers, curses, etc.) I still think that's the way to go; trashed cards generally are trash.

[Thinkaman]

I think rinkworks already covered everything that needs to be said:  Super high variance with a terrible common case, no matter the implementation.  The Trash is just not an interesting place in 95%+ of games.

Also, thumbing through the trash and considering every last card is slow and indecisive in a very un-Dominion way.  It just doesn't match the existing pace of the game.

[Newcomer]

Rinkworks: Are you sure you wouldn't ever trash with Rag-And-Bone-Man on the table?  All it allows is an extra buying opportunity from a separate supply.  If he had the coins and a + Buy, he could usually buy the same card for the same price from the Supply.  I guess what I'm saying is if your opponent still has to spend his coins to buy the card, I'm not sure why it'd be so important to you that you don't trash anything expensive...  I guess Bridge shenanigans..

That said, I'm not saying it definitely works.  I think it would be interesting to see how it fared in play-testing.  Sure, it won't be the dominant strategy on most boards, but I think it would be bought frequently enough.  It's a slow trasher that compensates by giving you money and the opportunity to sneak in an extra buy or two in the endgame, or a strategic Copper buy to put you over a price threshold.

[Davio]

I think the only way the trash can be handled is with some sort of attack.

Junk Dealer
Action - Attack
Cost: $4

+2$
Every other player gets a Copper or the top card of the Trash Pile, your choice.

I think the usual terminal Silver is a fitting place for this card; it's a little less than a Mountebank which (occasionally) deals a Copper and a Curse.


Another, spammable, implementation could be:

Flea Market
Action - Attack
Cost: $5 ($6?)

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1

Every other player gets a Copper or the top card of the Trash Pile, your choice.


This card may start out as just annoying in the beginning and could end up awful if the Trash pile is full of Curses.
Even if the trash is not used, it could be useful.

We could add the possibility to trash something yourself:

Trash a card from you hand.
Every other player gets a Copper or the top card of the Trash Pile, your choice.

[ftl]

Every other player gets a Copper or the top card of the Trash Pile, your choice.

In the spirit of Dominion, I think this would have to be phrased a little differently; you don't want to make it a "targetable" attack by saying that one player gets copper, next player gets the curse from the top of the trash pile, third opponent takes copper. Or something like that.

[Davio]

Every other player gets a Copper or the top card of the Trash Pile, your choice.

In the spirit of Dominion, I think this would have to be phrased a little differently; you don't want to make it a "targetable" attack by saying that one player gets copper, next player gets the curse from the top of the trash pile, third opponent takes copper. Or something like that.

I meant for it to go round the table, like with dealing out Curses.

So you start at the player to your left and work your way around clockwise.

[meshuggah42]

I think this whole idea goes against one of the main and most solid principles of Dominion, that cards cannot be removed from the trash.

I do not support the idea. It would generate extreme debate, much like Alchemy did with the rottin' Potions.

[Davio]

I don't see any reason to leave the Trash pile as it is, just because that's the way it was originally designed.

I don't claim to be a better game designer than Donald, but Dominion just offers a lot of room for modifications and it's fun to explore that space and see what we can find and find out what works and what doesn't.

Every expansion except for Cornucopia introduced something new to the game (Intrigue: mixed and choice cards, Seaside: Durations and mats, Alchemy: Potions, Prosperity: VP Tokens and Col/Plat), so I wouldn't exclude something like this to be used in a future expansion.

[rspeer]

I think this whole idea goes against one of the main and most solid principles of Dominion, that cards cannot be removed from the trash.

I do not support the idea. It would generate extreme debate, much like Alchemy did with the rottin' Potions.

It used to be a solid principle that no cards cost $7.

Also, you're saying Alchemy is bad because it "created extreme debate"? When I'm playing Scrying Pool and Golem, the fact that some people on the Internet have debated whether they should exist is the furthest thing from my mind.

I'm in favor of any cards that introduce new gameplay as long as it's interesting and not broken. I don't think the trash-digging cards proposed here have accomplished that, but it's conceivable to me that such a card could exist.

[AJD]

I think this whole idea goes against one of the main and most solid principles of Dominion, that cards cannot be removed from the trash.

One of the cards in the base set can remove cards from the trash.

[meshuggah42]

I think this whole idea goes against one of the main and most solid principles of Dominion, that cards cannot be removed from the trash.

One of the cards in the base set can remove cards from the trash.

Yes, but it does it instantly after trashing, it does not use the trash like the card ideas above.

And my opinion is that Alchemy could have been a lot better without Potions. For me, it just doesn't fit with the rest of the game. Don't get me wrong, I like playing with (most) Alchemy cards, it's just that it violates the resource homogenity. But this is off topic, so I'll shut up now.

[DStu]

I think this whole idea goes against one of the main and most solid principles of Dominion, that cards cannot be removed from the trash.

One of the cards in the base set can remove cards from the trash.

Yes, but it does it instantly after trashing, it does not use the trash like the card ideas above.

Yeah, but for a main and solid principle that might be a little bit to unsolid...

[Buggz]

Yeah, but for a main and solid principle that might be a little bit to unsolid...

I disagree. When playing live those cards never even reach the trash pile. I believe that was Donalds intended way of playing it, but the current way of describing it was the least ambiguous.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Yeah, but for a main and solid principle that might be a little bit to unsolid...

I disagree. When playing live those cards never even reach the trash pile. I believe that was Donalds intended way of playing it, but the current way of describing it was the least ambiguous.

This.

Thief could quite easily read "Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they set one of them aside that you choose. You may gain any or all of these set aside cards. Any set aside card that you did not gain are trashed. They discard the other revealed cards." and it wouldn't change anything in Dominion at all (other than make a couple of puzzles on this forum have slightly different solutions).

[meshuggah42]

Yeah, but for a main and solid principle that might be a little bit to unsolid...

I disagree. When playing live those cards never even reach the trash pile. I believe that was Donalds intended way of playing it, but the current way of describing it was the least ambiguous.

This.

Thief could quite easily read "Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they set one of them aside that you choose. You may gain any or all of these set aside cards. Any set aside card that you did not gain are trashed. They discard the other revealed cards." and it wouldn't change anything in Dominion at all (other than make a couple of puzzles on this forum have slightly different solutions).

Vouch this.

[AJD]

Yeah, but for a main and solid principle that might be a little bit to unsolid...

I disagree. When playing live those cards never even reach the trash pile. I believe that was Donalds intended way of playing it, but the current way of describing it was the least ambiguous.

This.

Thief could quite easily read "Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they set one of them aside that you choose. You may gain any or all of these set aside cards. Any set aside card that you did not gain are trashed. They discard the other revealed cards." and it wouldn't change anything in Dominion at all (other than make a couple of puzzles on this forum have slightly different solutions).

Well I mean sure. But, you know, if Donald X wanted it to be a hard-and-fast principle that cards never leave the trash, he could have phrased it the way you wrote. But anyway, this is a silly argument.

[DStu]

it was a joke

[Hamlet]

While Donald X may not have thought about the trash being used, it's not about his intention, it's about whether it's possible within the scope of the game.
As an attack, I think it is doable. Actually Davio's first card works far superior to the one I proposed where the trashed cards are redistributed. I could see a politics issue here with trashing a card specifically for the next player, but there aren't many trashing cards that grant an extra action anyways to utilize this easily.

[Buggz]

Donald has several times said something along the lines of "if it's fun, do it", but as stated in rinkworks' excellent guide to fan cards the cards in the trash are there for a reason.

What it also says is playtest your cards. So, how is it?

[Hamlet]

Donald has several times said something along the lines of "if it's fun, do it", but as stated in rinkworks' excellent guide to fan cards the cards in the trash are there for a reason.

What it also says is playtest your cards. So, how is it?

I haven't playtested it personally, I just wanted to discuss theory to see if I'm not the only one interested in investigating this area. I may find it fun, but I imagine others can find this idea repulsive.
I haven't had a free moment recently, but I think I'll playtest Davio's card here next I time I play; the card I initially posted was strictly theoretical.

[guided]

I don't find the idea repulsive per se, but I'm not that interested in it. If somebody presents are card that looks like it could be fun and balanced, I'd say so.

[ChaosRed]

For what it's worth, I am in favor of leaving trash alone. I would however consider action cards that put target cards in your hand back into the supply line, to help combat 3-piling.