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Author Topic: Easy Puzzles  (Read 808959 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1500 on: April 29, 2015, 05:22:43 pm »
0

See in your attempt to be super-specific in your reply to me earlier, you weren't specific enough, lol: "You play ONLY Walled Village and two other cards."

*flails miserably on the floor*

Anyway, so does my solution work just as well as the Haunted Woods thing then?

You can only buy Save once per turn.  :)

I was thinking that Save could do up to 2 cards for some reason. But fine, replace 1 Fortress with Scheme and it works.   :)
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Deadlock39

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1501 on: April 29, 2015, 06:03:42 pm »
0

See in your attempt to be super-specific in your reply to me earlier, you weren't specific enough, lol: "You play ONLY Walled Village and two other cards."

*flails miserably on the floor*

Anyway, so does my solution work just as well as the Haunted Woods thing then?

You can only buy Save once per turn.  :)

I think Save can work if you just have one Fortress and use Scheme for the other one.

Witherweaver

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1502 on: April 29, 2015, 06:25:21 pm »
0

Hmm.. I guess there is no preAdventures solution that only used three Action cards?

I wanted to do Walled Village-> Procession -> Graberobber, trash and gain itself and topdeck with Watchtower, but Graverobber doesn't go to the trash until after it resolves twice. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1503 on: April 29, 2015, 06:59:57 pm »
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I was thinking of Scheme-Hermit, but they don't resolve soon enough.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1504 on: April 30, 2015, 05:38:18 am »
0

If more plays of the same physical cards are allowed (but still only 3 physical cards getting played), then Walled Village - King's Court - Band of Misfits works with the new rulings in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.0.

1. Play BoM as Feast, gaining whatever and trashing itself.
2. Play BoM as Scheme drawing whatever.
3. Play BoM as Graverobber (your -2 cost token is on Graverobber), putting BoM on top of your deck.

Use Scheme to put King's Court on top of your deck and Walled Village puts itself on top of your deck.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1505 on: April 30, 2015, 05:53:23 am »
0

With playing 3 actions, Walled Village - BoM (as Scheme) works, also with the new rulings in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.0. With the new rulings, we are playing 3 actions: Walled Village, Band of Misfits and Scheme. Both cards in our play area top decks themself.
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werothegreat

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1506 on: April 30, 2015, 08:42:59 am »
0

3. Play BoM as Graverobber (your -2 cost token is on Graverobber), putting BoM on top of your deck.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Witherweaver

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1507 on: April 30, 2015, 09:36:12 am »
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Throne BoM ruling was reversed?
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1508 on: April 30, 2015, 09:47:24 am »
0

Throne BoM ruling was reversed?

4. Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.

4: I think most people would think you only played one card with BoM. It doesn't tell you to play another card like TR or Golem. And there's just one physical card that hit the table.
The rulebook refers to "playing" Band of Misfits. So you clearly played that.

Let's say I BoM a Militia. Can you Moat it? Yes, you better be able to Moat that. So, Militia was played. You played both cards.

Conspirator is a confusing case; obv. I am sad it doesn't just count Action cards in play like Peddler. Conspirator counts Actions, not "cards," which helps a little; two Actions were played, BoM and whatever. So, Conspirator sees "I played BoM as Village" as "I played two Actions." A rulings reversal.

I am still happy with my ruling on the tokens, you should get tokens for both, which leads to getting one for BoM and two for the other card when Throning.

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1509 on: April 30, 2015, 09:51:48 am »
0

I see, because of the Feast.

But, is it clear you get to choose a different BoM target between plays 2 and 3?
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1510 on: April 30, 2015, 09:59:49 am »
0

If you want to know the details, I suggest that you read the thread I linked to. This is not the right place.

But I'll answer this one. Yes it is clear. On both plays 2 and 3, KC plays the card, and the card is Band of Misfits.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1511 on: April 30, 2015, 10:05:22 am »
0

If you want to know the details, I suggest that you read the thread I linked to. This is not the right place.

But I'll answer this one. Yes it is clear. On both plays 2 and 3, KC plays the card, and the card is Band of Misfits.

But when you play it the second time, it's Scheme. 
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werothegreat

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1512 on: April 30, 2015, 11:56:18 am »
0

If you want to know the details, I suggest that you read the thread I linked to. This is not the right place.

But I'll answer this one. Yes it is clear. On both plays 2 and 3, KC plays the card, and the card is Band of Misfits.

But when you play it the second time, it's Scheme.

But it's in the trash, not in play, so it doesn't stay Scheme.
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TheOthin

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1513 on: April 30, 2015, 01:38:20 pm »
0

But wait.

"Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.
This is that card until it leaves play."

So you play Band of Misfits, choose Feast. Band of Misfits becomes Feast until it leaves play, so after you play it once it's done being Feast. Then you play it a second time because KC. Now, you choose Scheme. According to BoM's text, it's Scheme until it leaves play, only it hasn't even entered play. So how could it stop being Scheme?
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1514 on: April 30, 2015, 01:43:09 pm »
0

But wait.

"Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.
This is that card until it leaves play."

So you play Band of Misfits, choose Feast. Band of Misfits becomes Feast until it leaves play, so after you play it once it's done being Feast. Then you play it a second time because KC. Now, you choose Scheme. According to BoM's text, it's Scheme until it leaves play, only it hasn't even entered play. So how could it stop being Scheme?

Donald X.s ruling is that if it isn't in play, then it only becomes the other card for a short moment and then goes back to being BoM.
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werothegreat

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1515 on: April 30, 2015, 01:51:30 pm »
0

But wait.

"Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.
This is that card until it leaves play."

So you play Band of Misfits, choose Feast. Band of Misfits becomes Feast until it leaves play, so after you play it once it's done being Feast. Then you play it a second time because KC. Now, you choose Scheme. According to BoM's text, it's Scheme until it leaves play, only it hasn't even entered play. So how could it stop being Scheme?

Donald X.s ruling is that if it isn't in play, then it only becomes the other card for a short moment and then goes back to being BoM.

It has an epileptic fit.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 02:14:26 pm by werothegreat »
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Asper

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1516 on: May 01, 2015, 07:30:16 am »
+1

I don't think Donald has made a final ruling for BoM. It's terribly complex to do, so i don't blame him. I mean, man, the man's got other things to do than sit around thinking about a single card in a mass of cards for an awesome game he created. He's got kids and stuff. And new cards to make that people bug him to make. And new games. And so on. I'm a bored student, and i have time, and it still hurts my head to think about BoM.

I tried to narrow it down to two questions:

  • Do you play BoM first or do you play the chosen card directly?
  • Do you choose several times when playing TR/BoM?

This leads to 4 possible combinations:
  • You always play BoM, and you always choose.
  • You always play BoM, but you don't choose once it's played
  • You never play BoM, but you allways choose
  • You never play BoM, and you don't choose once it's played

Sadly, each option has issues:
1. You could argue that you always play BoM, including weirdly counting both for Conspirator. In that case, TR makes me play BoM twice, which means i could choose two different cards. Which is it then? The second, because it can't be two cards? Or both? Personally, i don't like that this variant introduces some weird things like BoM potentially being Herbalist and Hermit at the same time, but at least it's consequent. And that's a huge thing. Obviously this option wasn't considered. You get bonuses for tokens on the BoM pile in this variant.

2. You play BoM, but can't choose what it does the second time. But... why? Because it is a new card now? That would make sense if TR was saying "play a card from your hand. Play it again.". But TR says "choose a card from your hand", which is BoM. And then: "Play it twice". So i should play BoM twice from TR's wording.*

If i play BoM, but can't choose because BoM took over another alias after the first play, why can't i choose again if i trash BoM on the first play, for example as Feast?

The answer Donald gave is that BoM/TR is "hard-coded". So we don't get TR/BoM/Feast to play two different cards because TR "locks in" on Feast. Problem solved, right? Well, if we assume that TR "locks in" on the card you played BoM as, and we actually play BoM first, this means that TR knows something about what BoM does. Since when can cards do that?

Also this makes Procession even weirder: If i play BoM, then Feast, then Feast again, even though BoM has allready turned back to BoM, i should trash Feast, if any card at all. "It" on Procession goes back a long while, and starts at "play a card from your hand twice". And that card was BoM, but we still didn't treat it as if it was BoM, right? We treated it as Feast, and now we treat it as BoM again? So we do lock in there, but only for a part of Procession's effect? I'm personally a fierce enemy of trashed cards being considered only after the fact, which mattered the first time for BoM and now matters for Inheritance, but however you see this particular thing, there are a bunch of issues with this specific interpretation of BoM.

Pro: You get bonuses for tokens on the BoM pile in this variant.

3. You never play BoM. You played Feast to TR, so you play it again. This seems plausible from the wording, and works nicely for most situations. But as mentioned, TR and KC ask you to "choose a card from your hand" before playing any. And that card would be BoM, no matter what happens next. But hey, at least you never play BoM, so "locking in" makes a lot more sense. Why? Because you don't lock in on the card you chose for BoM, you're locking in on the card you played. And this means TR doesn't need to know what you did as part of BoM. Also it now doesn't cause weird stuff with Conspirator, but instead gets no bonuses for tokens on BoM. It still means that Procession's ruling becomes weird. If i never played a BoM, how is "it" BoM?

4. A bit like option one, just without the weird Conspirator thing, instead the tokens on the BoM pile do nothing. Relatively consequential, but still leads to BoM being played as several different cards each time.



Personally, i'm house ruling option 3 and ignoring the whole post-trashing observation stuff that leads to issues with Procession and recently Inheritance. In my house, if i trash a card, i don't look at it after trashing it. Who knows where it'll be now?

*Another side problem here is that while TR and KC first "choose a card", Procession and Disciple go right into "play a card from your hand". Obviously you want them to behave the same.

Edit: Oops, how did this post grow so big?  :o
Sorry for the wall of text, guys.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 07:36:44 am by Asper »
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Seprix

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1517 on: May 01, 2015, 09:24:09 am »
0

Doesn't seem hard to me. You Process BoM. BoM is played as Feast. Gain two 5 cost cards. Then you gain another 5 cost card from Procession. If I am right, BoM keeps it's cost while assuming the guise of another card.
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markusin

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1518 on: May 01, 2015, 09:28:27 am »
+2

Quick summary of Donald's ruling as I understand it, Donald ruled for option 2 in Asper's post above, expect BoM is only played the first time (so you only get tokens once). You don't get to choose again once it's played a second time with TR. That is, unless the BoM trashes itself on the first play through TR, for example by choosing Feast. In that case, BoM then follows Asper's option 1; You always play BoM and you always choose until TR/KC/Procession resolves.

Given the new ruling, I now think of TR/KC/Procession as always choosing a single physical card whose on-play effect changes. So the "it" referred to by Procession for Procession/BoM is always the BoM that you hold in your hand and that you physically move to the trash, not some idea or description of a card. What that BoM does when you play it changes though. So I don't object to gaining a card costing 1 more than BoM or Inherited Estates when those respective cards are played by Procession.
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markusin

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1519 on: May 01, 2015, 09:29:13 am »
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Doesn't seem hard to me. You Process BoM. BoM is played as Feast. Gain two 5 cost cards. Then you gain another 5 cost card from Procession. If I am right, BoM keeps it's cost while assuming the guise of another card.
Don't you mean gain a 6 cost card from Procession?
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Seprix

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1520 on: May 01, 2015, 09:32:16 am »
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Doesn't seem hard to me. You Process BoM. BoM is played as Feast. Gain two 5 cost cards. Then you gain another 5 cost card from Procession. If I am right, BoM keeps it's cost while assuming the guise of another card.
Don't you mean gain a 6 cost card from Procession?

Typo.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1521 on: May 01, 2015, 09:32:57 am »
+2

*Easy Puzzles with Complicated Rule Implications
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 10:10:03 am by Witherweaver »
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werothegreat

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1522 on: May 01, 2015, 10:09:29 am »
+5

*Easty Puzzles with Complicated Rule Implications

As opposed to Westy or Northy puzzles?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1523 on: May 01, 2015, 10:10:11 am »
+1

*Easty Puzzles with Complicated Rule Implications

As opposed to Westy or Northy puzzles?

Damn you.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Easy Puzzles
« Reply #1524 on: May 01, 2015, 10:33:49 am »
+5

*Easty Puzzles with Complicated Rule Implications

As opposed to Westy or Northy puzzles?

Florst puzzles.
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