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Author Topic: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.  (Read 2036 times)

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zahlman

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I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« on: March 12, 2013, 02:23:39 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/11/game-20130311-232003-7a809536.html

* Don't you want to try to win the split?

* Where did all his Labs come from?

* Why does it take me forever to get going?

* How come the 3 golds he gains are enough for him, but not enough for me?

* Isn't it supposed to be bad on his part to use the Governors for draw most of the time? Why didn't I seem to benefit from this?
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Robz888

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Re: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 02:30:01 am »
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Forge and Tactician are a huge waste of your time here, I'd say. Tactician especially, since at least Forge can be counter-trashed into Province. And Jack is probably better than Feast here.
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zahlman

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Re: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 02:48:14 am »
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I wanted Feast to get a Governor right away from it. Is that somehow wrong? Again, am I not actually trying to win a split?

I picked up Tactician and Forge out of frustration because my Governors weren't lining up on their own. Am I supposed to be using them for draw anyway? My question is really really about the mechanics of the card rather than the buying.
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dondon151

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Re: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 06:10:41 am »
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The big problem here is that you are looking for a Governor megaturn when the kingdom is not well suited to one. You would need a Forge ASAP for a megaturn strategy to even have a chance at working.

There is a slight bit of luck when it comes down to it, but your opponent reaches a deck state with high quality treasure and not many dead cards. A little bit of this is due to the Jack opening, though he trashes it early (gaining a Lab, which is still useful). A bigger factor in early deck development might be your Feast opening. Due to this, you end up having lower money density and you don't hit $5 as often early on.

You end up using the trashing option quite a bit early on in order to try to build your deck, and that benefited your opponent significantly because he got 2 Copper trashes, an Estate -> Silver, and a Jack -> Lab. He hit a streak of $5 early on, and the resulting Labs and Governors are enough for him to easily reach $8 with a draw or two. His Labs are sufficient draw for buying a Province every turn, whereas you're forced to give him an increased handsize if you want to draw at all.

tl;dr version:
1. The Jack opening made a difference in his ability to hit $5 later on - that's what trashing an Estate and gaining a Silver does. From my experience, Jack openings don't tend to hit $5 as often on the reshuffle, but he got one here.
2. Some of your Governor trashing was frivolous; for example, you trashed Silver -> Governor and bought a Haven. Haven doesn't help you very much here.
3. A fast money strategy beats a Governor engine if the engine doesn't have good trashing.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 06:13:48 am by dondon151 »
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DG

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Re: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 09:46:15 am »
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There are two ways the governors will get your provinces here: trashing gold for provinces or drawing big hands of treasure. Labs and jack will draw big hands of silver quite nicely, probably better than governors. I think you had a plan of trashing gold for provinces but the gold arrives far too late.

Salvager is probably a better opening here than feast if you want a slim deck that can make good use of governor gifts.
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ehunt

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Re: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 11:46:33 am »
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Feast is just an all-around bad card. It's not rated very highly, but it's still overrated. It's useful for getting dukes, in trick decks with king's courts and minions or something, and occasionally does cool tricks with highway, but I would always skip it otherwise.

The conventional wisdom is "open a feast when you absolutely must get to 5 on the second shuffle." I don't agree with it. You're still handicapping your deck for the third and fourth shuffle, and there's no way to absolutely guarantee 5 on the second shuffle because your feast might miss the shuffle. Five on the second shuffle is very likely with a silver silver open (or with a silver/jack open). You should almost always just take those odds.
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eHalcyon

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Re: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 02:36:57 pm »
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Feast is just an all-around bad card. It's not rated very highly, but it's still overrated. It's useful for getting dukes, in trick decks with king's courts and minions or something, and occasionally does cool tricks with highway, but I would always skip it otherwise.

The conventional wisdom is "open a feast when you absolutely must get to 5 on the second shuffle." I don't agree with it. You're still handicapping your deck for the third and fourth shuffle, and there's no way to absolutely guarantee 5 on the second shuffle because your feast might miss the shuffle. Five on the second shuffle is very likely with a silver silver open (or with a silver/jack open). You should almost always just take those odds.

I agree -- Silver is usually better and gets you to $5 just about as well.

But another use case where you might prefer Feast is when Silver would clog your deck.
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ehunt

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Re: I apparently don't understand Governors at all.
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 03:15:10 pm »
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Feast is just an all-around bad card. It's not rated very highly, but it's still overrated. It's useful for getting dukes, in trick decks with king's courts and minions or something, and occasionally does cool tricks with highway, but I would always skip it otherwise.

The conventional wisdom is "open a feast when you absolutely must get to 5 on the second shuffle." I don't agree with it. You're still handicapping your deck for the third and fourth shuffle, and there's no way to absolutely guarantee 5 on the second shuffle because your feast might miss the shuffle. Five on the second shuffle is very likely with a silver silver open (or with a silver/jack open). You should almost always just take those odds.

I agree -- Silver is usually better and gets you to $5 just about as well.

But another use case where you might prefer Feast is when Silver would clog your deck.

good point. in the middle of a game with power fives that hate silver (like minion) i think feast > silver
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