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Author Topic: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise  (Read 27040 times)

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Tdog

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2013, 03:21:18 pm »
+1


Goko Dominion: Connectivity, Security, and Platforms
Can you provide us some assurance that you are staying ahead of new security concerns? For instance, do you have a third party doing periodic checks on things?
JQS: We believe we’re up to speed and respond to anything that looks like a security issue quickly. So far we’re doing well. As mentioned in the thread, we don’t touch anything to do with credit cards or payment systems (most web sites don’t). We will have periodic reviews but that doesn’t really mean nothing will happen in the future... even large entities like Yahoo/Google/Microsoft despite their large dedicated security teams still have to address problems when they arise.
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theory

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2013, 03:30:43 pm »
+4

How about this.  Assume goko will get hacked.  You want to play dominion on it anyway.  What do you do?  Use a linux live CD.  If you are super paranoid, disconnect your hard drive (either physically, or via BIOS), and then boot into linux from the CD.  Use goko, get hacked.  All fine and good.  There is no way to persist any information on your machine.  Turn off your machine, reconnect the disk, reboot on your machine, and then laugh at all the poor infected suckers who didn't have your enlightened level of paranoia.

A bad enough virus can do actual damage to your other hardware like the processor.

Realistically, if you worry about things like this, you probably don't use the Internet.
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2013, 03:36:29 pm »
+7

How about this.  Assume goko will get hacked.  You want to play dominion on it anyway.  What do you do?  Use a linux live CD.  If you are super paranoid, disconnect your hard drive (either physically, or via BIOS), and then boot into linux from the CD.  Use goko, get hacked.  All fine and good.  There is no way to persist any information on your machine.  Turn off your machine, reconnect the disk, reboot on your machine, and then laugh at all the poor infected suckers who didn't have your enlightened level of paranoia.

A bad enough virus can do actual damage to your other hardware like the processor.

Realistically, if you worry about things like this, you probably don't use the Internet.


It makes me glad I don't use the Internet at all!
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2013, 03:37:32 pm »
0

Anyway, Goko did state they hired an outside firm. They mentioned this in one of their Q&As.
When was this?

We also hired a security consultant who evaluated the site and attempted to break our security. We’ve made changes he recommended and will update you once he’s completely done with his analysis.
Thank you. This is the exact kind of thing I was hoping to find from the thread!

Now, did they ever update us on that, as she says they plan on doing here? If so, then I'm good.
I don't think so, at least Trisha didn't. Just send them an email or go to getsatisfaction and ask what happened to that.
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2013, 03:50:57 pm »
0

Anyway, Goko did state they hired an outside firm. They mentioned this in one of their Q&As.
When was this?

We also hired a security consultant who evaluated the site and attempted to break our security. We’ve made changes he recommended and will update you once he’s completely done with his analysis.
Thank you. This is the exact kind of thing I was hoping to find from the thread!

Now, did they ever update us on that, as she says they plan on doing here? If so, then I'm good.
I don't think so, at least Trisha didn't. Just send them an email or go to getsatisfaction and ask what happened to that.

Of these two options, I think I'd try email. They've been pretty slow to respond to GetSatisfaction posts since they lost Trisha.
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gryph202

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2013, 04:14:32 pm »
0

I agree with the above.
Goko failed the initial relase, no doubt about that. You can go and punish them for that by not playing there now. But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.

I'm punishing myself only if I'm doing something I don't want to do, or if I'm not doing something I really want to do.  Since I have no interest in playing on Goko (I have all extant expansions and the base set already to play tabletop), I am neither punishing them or myself.  I am declining to spend money on an inferior product that won't run on two of the three computers that I own and attempted a gold release at least six months before it was anywhere near ready.  Goko doesn't need punishment.

I can just about guaran-damn-tee you they hurt themselves to this very day by their disastrous roll out.  Their numbers will never be as high as they could have been had they just waited six months.  They may be a viable, nay, successful company in the long-run, but some (including myself) will always have that sour taste left in our mouths.

And by the by, if Goko is such an upstanding company and they have their ducks all supposedly in a row, how come only three games have been released so far?  What about all those other wonderful properties they all tied up in the exclusive contracts?  There's hardly any indication of what they had planned on the site now.  Just three paltry (compared to the hype) games that they are STILL working on six months after that disastrous roll out.

You wanna play Dominion online badly enough to play at Goko?  Fine.  I won't judge you for it. But I don't plan on spending money there, so I hope I'm not judged too harshly for my misgivings, fair or unfair. 
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2013, 04:43:53 pm »
0

I was talking to people who said they aren't playing at Goko now because out was bad at initial release. If you're bit playing at goko now because you think it's bad, I think that's reasonable, though I disagree about the fact that Goko is still bad.
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Dargone

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #82 on: March 15, 2013, 12:34:50 pm »
0

How about this.  Assume goko will get hacked.  You want to play dominion on it anyway.  What do you do?  Use a linux live CD.  If you are super paranoid, disconnect your hard drive (either physically, or via BIOS), and then boot into linux from the CD.  Use goko, get hacked.  All fine and good.  There is no way to persist any information on your machine.  Turn off your machine, reconnect the disk, reboot on your machine, and then laugh at all the poor infected suckers who didn't have your enlightened level of paranoia.

A bad enough virus can do actual damage to your other hardware like the processor.

Realistically, if you worry about things like this, you probably don't use the Internet.


/thread
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shMerker

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #83 on: March 15, 2013, 03:44:51 pm »
0

Quote
But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.
I usually feel quite happy punishing companies for behaviour I don't want to support...
Is it worth it? Absolutely - I don't need to have this hobby near as much as I need security.
Having said that, I'm not intending to punish them at all - I am merely looking out for myself. Is it punishing Kraft that I don't buy their cheese because I can't stand cheese, and ergo have insufficient interest in their product to be worth my money? If you have such a broad definition, then sure, I am punishing them, but at that point, the word also loses a huge part of its meaning.


YOU DON'T LIKE CHEESE?!
The stuff Kraft makes is not cheese.
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clb

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #84 on: March 15, 2013, 04:33:41 pm »
0

Quote
But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.
I usually feel quite happy punishing companies for behaviour I don't want to support...
Is it worth it? Absolutely - I don't need to have this hobby near as much as I need security.
Having said that, I'm not intending to punish them at all - I am merely looking out for myself. Is it punishing Kraft that I don't buy their cheese because I can't stand cheese, and ergo have insufficient interest in their product to be worth my money? If you have such a broad definition, then sure, I am punishing them, but at that point, the word also loses a huge part of its meaning.


YOU DON'T LIKE CHEESE?!
The stuff Kraft makes is not cheese.
I believe they label the non-cheese stuff as "cheese product" and, unfortunately (appropriately? ironically?), it is all too often preceded with "American".
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2013, 05:21:40 pm »
0

Quote
But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.
I usually feel quite happy punishing companies for behaviour I don't want to support...
Is it worth it? Absolutely - I don't need to have this hobby near as much as I need security.
Having said that, I'm not intending to punish them at all - I am merely looking out for myself. Is it punishing Kraft that I don't buy their cheese because I can't stand cheese, and ergo have insufficient interest in their product to be worth my money? If you have such a broad definition, then sure, I am punishing them, but at that point, the word also loses a huge part of its meaning.


YOU DON'T LIKE CHEESE?!
The stuff Kraft makes is not cheese.
I believe they label the non-cheese stuff as "cheese product" and, unfortunately (appropriately? ironically?), it is all too often preceded with "American".

Certainly Kraft makes both cheese and cheese-like non-cheese substances.  The thing is, if you actually like cheese, Kraft is really the bottom rung.  Start with Tillamook and then go up.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2013, 05:28:03 pm »
0

As someone who considers cheese to be an immoral and exploitative product, I really don't see a moral difference between what Kraft sells and what others are offering.
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Dsell

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #87 on: March 15, 2013, 05:29:57 pm »
0

Quote
But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.
I usually feel quite happy punishing companies for behaviour I don't want to support...
Is it worth it? Absolutely - I don't need to have this hobby near as much as I need security.
Having said that, I'm not intending to punish them at all - I am merely looking out for myself. Is it punishing Kraft that I don't buy their cheese because I can't stand cheese, and ergo have insufficient interest in their product to be worth my money? If you have such a broad definition, then sure, I am punishing them, but at that point, the word also loses a huge part of its meaning.


YOU DON'T LIKE CHEESE?!
The stuff Kraft makes is not cheese.
I believe they label the non-cheese stuff as "cheese product" and, unfortunately (appropriately? ironically?), it is all too often preceded with "American".

Certainly Kraft makes both cheese and cheese-like non-cheese substances.  The thing is, if you actually like cheese, Kraft is really the bottom rung.  Start with Tillamook and then go up.

Tillamook is local for me! They make terrific ice cream too.



Thread successfully derailed. ;D
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clb

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #88 on: March 15, 2013, 06:21:10 pm »
0

As someone who considers cheese to be an immoral and exploitative product, I really don't see a moral difference between what Kraft sells and what others are offering.
If this is because of animal abuses, etc, then you may be pleased to know that they offer something that is made strictly from plant oils.
Quote from: Dsell
Tillamook is local for me! They make terrific ice cream too.
I toured their factory last summer - that was a very delicious part of our vacation!
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SirPeebles

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2013, 06:28:02 pm »
0

If this is because of animal abuses, etc, then you may be pleased to know that they offer something that is made strictly from plant oils.

Kraft?  what product is this?  It contains no casein?
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werothegreat

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2013, 07:16:12 pm »
0

Quote
But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.
I usually feel quite happy punishing companies for behaviour I don't want to support...
Is it worth it? Absolutely - I don't need to have this hobby near as much as I need security.
Having said that, I'm not intending to punish them at all - I am merely looking out for myself. Is it punishing Kraft that I don't buy their cheese because I can't stand cheese, and ergo have insufficient interest in their product to be worth my money? If you have such a broad definition, then sure, I am punishing them, but at that point, the word also loses a huge part of its meaning.


YOU DON'T LIKE CHEESE?!
The stuff Kraft makes is not cheese.
I believe they label the non-cheese stuff as "cheese product" and, unfortunately (appropriately? ironically?), it is all too often preceded with "American".

Certainly Kraft makes both cheese and cheese-like non-cheese substances.  The thing is, if you actually like cheese, Kraft is really the bottom rung.  Start with Tillamook and then go up.

This frustrates me sometimes.  See, there's real cheese, like Swiss, Cheddar, Provelone, what have you.  Then there's American cheese, which is made from cheese, but is called a "cheese product."  Then there's Kraft, which has no relation to cheese whatsoever and I'm guessing is actually made from colored plastic.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #91 on: March 16, 2013, 12:08:55 am »
+1

Quote
But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.
I usually feel quite happy punishing companies for behaviour I don't want to support...
Is it worth it? Absolutely - I don't need to have this hobby near as much as I need security.
Having said that, I'm not intending to punish them at all - I am merely looking out for myself. Is it punishing Kraft that I don't buy their cheese because I can't stand cheese, and ergo have insufficient interest in their product to be worth my money? If you have such a broad definition, then sure, I am punishing them, but at that point, the word also loses a huge part of its meaning.


YOU DON'T LIKE CHEESE?!
The stuff Kraft makes is not cheese.
I believe they label the non-cheese stuff as "cheese product" and, unfortunately (appropriately? ironically?), it is all too often preceded with "American".

Certainly Kraft makes both cheese and cheese-like non-cheese substances.  The thing is, if you actually like cheese, Kraft is really the bottom rung.  Start with Tillamook and then go up.

This frustrates me sometimes.  See, there's real cheese, like Swiss, Cheddar, Provelone, what have you.  Then there's American cheese, which is made from cheese, but is called a "cheese product."  Then there's Kraft, which has no relation to cheese whatsoever and I'm guessing is actually made from colored plastic.

How dare you besmirch the good name of Plastic!

;)
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jqs

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2013, 09:10:15 pm »
+16

Hi everyone,

Arman and WW contacted me a few days ago after this thread popped up... sorry for the delay in responding I've just been busy with the latest release.

I read through everything so I have some answers for things I didn't see answered yet:

1) play.goko.com/games/terms_of_services
     this page never existed on play.goko.com and the URL was a mistake... the correct page (always been there) is: www.goko.com/games/terms_of_service . Thanks to the people that pointed that out to us.

2) Tablet play is difficult on some devices:
     the iOS and Android versions are in development. I've played them. Should be better once these are out. That said, when we first demo'd Dominion at Origins a ways back it was running in a browser on an iPad and people didn't have too much trouble. They had UI suggestions about the "buy" buttons in particular but for the most part it was playable fine. Once we have the native apps out for iOS/Android I'm sure we'll get a lot of feedback and we'll start adjusting those to suit.

3) This is pretty true:

Quote
"Yes, they rushed it.  By rushing it, they didn't do due diligence on their server load capabilities or their JS-injection vulnerabilities.  But I think it is understandable why they did so.  There were lots of real-world pressures to show the community something cool... there was lots of crazy code to write for Dark Ages cards (which already had their programmers working double-shifts)... "

That said, we were running load tests... just the person at the time had designed them in such a way that they didn't expose the platform networking problem we had... and so when we opened the doors, that's what went kaboom. As I'm sure you're all aware, before we opened up to the general public again we not only fixed the problem but also went back and redesigned how we were doing the load tests and then fixed anything that got exposed by the redesigned tests as quickly as humanly possible. Those were some hard days.

4) Security

I addressed this one in another thread here on DS but just to make sure... we fixed everything that the security consultant found. We had him poking specifically at passwords, XSS, javascript injection, and the payment systems (again, we don't participate in the credit card/paypal/etc payment flow... most web sites that take payment don't... they use 3rd parties). He didn't find any major holes after we went through it ourselves and the issues that he did find were more about tightening up our policies around "Allow-Origin" for certain types of files, etc. I would call those more "preventative tweaks" rather than fixes for anything being exploited (which he wasn't able to do). As I said in other places, though, even the large companies like Apple/MS/Google/banks who have dedicated security teams have issues.

So.... all that said, after we opened up again I've seen threads or comments suggesting there's still some problem. In each case I've asked the person for specific information so we can verify. If there's something out there with security, we'll fix it immediately. So far, though, I think most people are just echoing the concern they had from the problem at launch (understandable) and aren't able to give us information about any currently existing problems. If you do know of any such problem then by all means email us at support@goko.com .

Thanks!
John Q.


« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 11:53:15 pm by jqs »
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #93 on: March 16, 2013, 09:11:26 pm »
+5

Hi everyone,

Arman and WW contacted me a few days ago after this thread popped up... sorry for the delay in responding I've just been busy with the latest release.

I read through everything so I have some answers for things I didn't see get answered yet:

1) play.goko.com/games/terms_of_services
     this page never existed on play.goko.com and the URL was a mistake... the correct page (always been there) is: www.goko.com/games/terms_of_service . Thanks to the people that pointed that out to us.

2) Tablet play is difficult on some devices:
     the iOS and Android versions are in development. I've played them. Should be better once these are out. That said, when we first demo'd Dominion at Origins a ways back it was running in a browser on an iPad and people didn't have too much trouble. They had UI suggestions about the "buy" buttons in particular but for the most part it was playable fine. Once we have the native apps out for iOS/Android I'm sure we'll get a lot of feedback and we'll start adjusting those to suit.

3) This is pretty true:

Quote
"Yes, they rushed it.  By rushing it, they didn't do due diligence on their server load capabilities or their JS-injection vulnerabilities.  But I think it is understandable why they did so.  There were lots of real-world pressures to show the community something cool... there was lots of crazy code to write for Dark Ages cards (which already had their programmers working double-shifts)... "

That said, we were running load tests... just the person at the time had designed them in such a way that they didn't expose the platform networking problem we had... and so when we opened the doors, that's what went kaboom. As I'm sure you're all aware, before we opened up to the general public again we not only fixed the problem but also went back and redesigned how we were doing the load tests and then fixed anything that got exposed by the redesigned tests as quickly as humanly possible. Those were some hard days.

4) Security

I addressed this one in another thread here on DS but just to make sure... we fixed everything that the security consultant found. We had him poking specifically at passwords, XSS, javascript injection, and the payment systems (again, we don't participate in the credit card/paypal/etc payment flow... most web sites that take payment don't... they use 3rd parties). He didn't find any major holes after we went through it ourselves and the issues that he did find were more about tightening up our policies around "Allow-Origin" for certain types of files, etc. I would call those more "preventative tweaks" rather than fixes for anything being exploited (which he wasn't able to do). As I said in other places, though, even the large companies like Apple/MS/Google/banks who have dedicated security teams have issues.

So.... all that said, after we opened up again I've seen threads or comments suggesting there's still some problem. In each case I've asked the person for specific information so we can verify. If there's something out there with security, we'll fix it immediately. So far, though, I think most people are just echoing the concern they had from the problem at launch (understandable) and aren't able to give us information about any currently existing problems. If you do know of any such problem then by all means email us at support@goko.com .

Thanks!
John Q.

Yes, this is all well and good, but what is your opinion on Kraft 'Cheese' Slices?
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #94 on: March 16, 2013, 09:34:35 pm »
+1

Honestly, I was sort of expecting him to comment on the "cheese" debate, if only as a joke.  Maybe it's better not to joke in an official post about security though.
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #95 on: March 16, 2013, 11:51:11 pm »
+4

I was too busy out buying my Kraft Cheese Slices and forgot to address that part.

Yes, I have to agree that Kraft isn't my first choice...  a good Havarti or a Pecorino Romano, that's usually first in line. Even had "date and chevre" gelato one time... that was a lot better than I expected it to be.

So here I was just about to jump on the Kraft-singles-bashing bandwagon because of personal taste when I happened to run across this on Amazon:  http://www.amazon.com/Kraft-American-Cheese-Unit-Pack/product-reviews/B000Z7INM0/ref=cm_cr_pr_top_link_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0  ... thought it was going something along the lines of the comments in this one:  http://www.amazon.com/Hutzler-5717-571-Banana-Slicer/dp/B0047E0EII/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363492131&sr=8-1&keywords=banana+slicer   ... but, lo and behold, apparently there is a very loyal following (albeit not for the slices, which I still will pass on).
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #96 on: March 16, 2013, 11:56:52 pm »
+1

Ok, now Kraft is starting to nudge toward "cool" :  http://gizmodo.com/5748769/kraft-has-a-400000-sq-foot-underground-cheese-cave
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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #97 on: March 17, 2013, 12:28:46 am »
+1

Eurgh, Velveeta isn't even not-really-cheese - I'm sure even touching it probably gives you cancer.
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Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Polk5440

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #98 on: March 17, 2013, 02:52:21 pm »
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I like Velveeta! I have some of the pasteurized prepared cheese product in my fridge right now!
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Robz888

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Re: Convince me that Goko is a good site, security-wise
« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2013, 03:05:02 pm »
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It's really good to hear that you guys did this. Makes me personally feel better about Goko. Thanks!
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I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.
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