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[hyramgraff]

"Discard" – unless otherwise specified, discarded cards are from the player’s hand.

Edit: I see LF has edited this into his post in reply #9 already. I don't understand how it isn't definitive here.

I think there's a colorable argument that Beggar's reaction text can overcome the presumption that a Beggar card must be in a hand to be discarded.  A Beggar on a Native Village mat is a card that I can look at when another player plays an attack, and the text on that Beggar says that, "I may discard this".

The Native Village mat edge case doesn't cover other places that I might try to discard a Beggar from (like a Beggar that I've top decked using Secret Chamber.)

[GendoIkari]

"Discard" – unless otherwise specified, discarded cards are from the player’s hand.

Edit: I see LF has edited this into his post in reply #9 already. I don't understand how it isn't definitive here.

I think there's a colorable argument that Beggar's reaction text can overcome the presumption that a Beggar card must be in a hand to be discarded.  A Beggar on a Native Village mat is a card that I can look at when another player plays an attack, and the text on that Beggar says that, "I may discard this".

The Native Village mat edge case doesn't cover other places that I might try to discard a Beggar from (like a Beggar that I've top decked using Secret Chamber.)

Does beggar "specify otherwise" about where the card is discarded from? If not, then it is discarded from hand, as per how the rule book defines the word "discard."

Words in Dominion have very specific meaning. "Gain" means from the supply unless otherwise specified. Getting a card from Masquerade is not "gaining" a card, even though a casual definition of "gain" would say that you gained a card. In the same way, the casual definition of "discard", as in to move a card from somewhere into your discard pile, is irrelevant in the rules of Dominion. The only definition of "discard" that matters is the one given in the rule book. And the rule book defines "discarding" as taking a card "from your hand" and moving it to the discard pile (unless specified otherwise).

[Jeebus]

You're thinking about this wrong. Tunnel says "When you discard this, you may reveal it." By the time you reveal it, you've already answered the question of where it got discarded from. You just have to ask, "Did I discard this Tunnel?" Yes? Then you can reveal it.

Beggar actually allows you to discard it. Since it doesn't specify a source, it has to be from your hand. Otherwise, Hamlet would allow you to discard cards in play to gain an action or a buy.

Hamlet is not relevant, since it's not talking about a specific card. The only way Beggar could allow you to discard it from anywhere, would be because it refers to a specific card (meaning a specific copy of a card).

Anyway, I'm convinced that Tunnel is not relevant to the question either. (That's what I was getting at in the last sentence in my previous post.) So I agree with you there. We can just compare with "gain". Watchtower ("when you gain a card") triggers when you gain from anywhere, even though it doesn't refer to a specific card. So the reason Tunnel triggers when you discard from anywhere, is not that it refers to a specific card.

So then Beggar and Market Square are entirely unique. Discarding and gaining are the only two card movements that have a default from-location. And there are no other cards that tell you to discard or gain a specific card without telling you where to discard it or gain it from.

I guess the way I was thinking, was with regards to lose-track. Although in this case it's not about losing track. Lose-track tells you that a movement effect tries to move a card from where it's expected to be. Now, when you discard Beggar from your hand, that's where it expected itself to be of course. But doesn't that apply when it's on your Island mat too? Of course, the argument that you're making is that plain "discard" actually means "discard from your hand", so the other stuff doesn't matter. Look at Loan though: "Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure. Discard it or trash it. Discard the other cards." Discard doesn't mean from your hand there; it's referring to cards with a known location, so that overrides the default. My way of thinking was that a specific copy of a card always knows its own location.

I'm not at all convinces that that's correct anymore, but I don't see that it's so clear-cut either.

[GendoIkari]

And there are no other cards that tell you to discard or gain a specific card without telling you where to discard it or gain it from.

If you want to be super-pedantic, which of course we do, then Thief doesn't tell you where to gain cards from, even though they come from the trash, rather than the supply. Sure it says "gain the trashed cards", but it doesn't say to gain them from the trash.

[LastFootnote]

I guess the way I was thinking, was with regards to lose-track. Although in this case it's not about losing track. Lose-track tells you that a movement effect tries to move a card from where it's expected to be. Now, when you discard Beggar from your hand, that's where it expected itself to be of course. But doesn't that apply when it's on your Island mat too? Of course, the argument that you're making is that plain "discard" actually means "discard from your hand", so the other stuff doesn't matter. Look at Loan though: "Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure. Discard it or trash it. Discard the other cards." Discard doesn't mean from your hand there; it's referring to cards with a known location, so that overrides the default. My way of thinking was that a specific copy of a card always knows its own location.

Your Loan example has convinced me that it's less clear-cut than I thought. I'm glad we know how the card is meant to work, but you're right that the extra clarity wouldn't be amiss.

[shMerker]

Loan is specifying though. It says you discard the revealed card. Beggar is completely silent on where it will be discarded from so you just follow the rules.

[Jeebus]

Loan is specifying though. It says you discard the revealed card. Beggar is completely silent on where it will be discarded from so you just follow the rules.

Yeah, you could say that Loan implicitly means "the revealed cards". So just like Thief's "trashed cards" implicitly (although a little more explicitly than on Loan) means "from trash", it's saying where to move it from.

[KingZog3]

I didn't read every post, but Begger does not say "From your hand" because it says "When an opponent plays an attack card." They can't play an attack on your turn, so you can't discard it for silver. It doesn't need a "From your hand." As pointed out, it could be on the Native Village Mat, but aren't they technically out of play until returned to your hand? This would stop you discarding it from the mat.

[Jeebus]

I didn't read every post, but Begger does not say "From your hand" because it says "When an opponent plays an attack card." They can't play an attack on your turn, so you can't discard it for silver. It doesn't need a "From your hand." As pointed out, it could be on the Native Village Mat, but aren't they technically out of play until returned to your hand? This would stop you discarding it from the mat.

No, the only thing stopping you from discarding it from the mat (or from other places) is if "when you discard this" implicitly means "when you discard this from your hand" per the basic rule that discard means from your hand if not specified. And I concede that it's a reasonable interpretation that it does, although maybe not absolutely 100% clear.

[Grujah]

I nominate this thread for the "most nitpicky forum thread of all time in the universe" award.

[shMerker]

I didn't read every post, but Begger does not say "From your hand" because it says "When an opponent plays an attack card." They can't play an attack on your turn, so you can't discard it for silver. It doesn't need a "From your hand." As pointed out, it could be on the Native Village Mat, but aren't they technically out of play until returned to your hand? This would stop you discarding it from the mat.

No, the only thing stopping you from discarding it from the mat (or from other places) is if "when you discard this" implicitly means "when you discard this from your hand" per the basic rule that discard means from your hand if not specified. And I concede that it's a reasonable enterpretion that it does, although maybe not absolutely 100% clear.

But Beggar doesn't say "when you discard this".

[Jeebus]

But Beggar doesn't say "when you discard this".

Sorry, obviously I meant to say "you may discard this". See previous posts.

[GendoIkari]

I'll just mention that Donald has said that he never wants to change things in newer publications.

lol.

[Donald X.]

I'll just mention that Donald has said that he never wants to change things in newer publications.

lol.

Jay used to be against errata, unless really really necessary, because it would cause arguments when people were used to different editions. He initially resisted changing Carcassonne (the original scoring rules were worse) but when the game was a hit gave in there.

But when I finally said, let's do this thing, he was just on board. Phones have made it easier; you at least have the answer in your pocket.