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Author Topic: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?  (Read 3674 times)

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ksasaki

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will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« on: March 10, 2013, 04:56:05 pm »
0

I've played this about 5 times with my friend, and I feel like it adds a lot of new catch-up mechanisms to the game.  Some games I feel like they are pretty close, but others just turn into runaways (some luck based, some self-inflicted).
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 07:01:24 pm »
0

I think it's stupidly awesome that we're into the tens of thousands of games played of Innovation online, and hundreds per day.  We're even considering beta testing the next expansion on Iso once the rules are stable enough! 

And only a couple people have been rude so far...never thought I'd be sworn at for beating someone at Inno :P

-Chris Cieslik
Asmadi Games

I can only assume that if the designers are happy to playtest new expansions on Isotropic, then they are happy for existant expansions to be implemented. That just means it's down to a case of Dougz having the time, ability and want to code the set. I'm pretty confident he has the ability, and he must want to do it or he wouldn't have bothered at all, so that just leaves time...
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AngelKurisu

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 05:52:35 pm »
+1

Figures is unfortunately highly unlikely to be implemented on Iso.  This has nothing to do with the desire to do so, and everything to do with the fact that it'd be an absolute nightmare to code.  Every card interrupts basic game functionality in a different unique way, and we weren't exactly thinking of digital innovation when we designed it.  So...it'd be cool, but probably not anyplace on the radar.

Expansion #3, on the other hand, is much easier to implement, and likely will be.  Once it's at a stable beta state, it might be up for testing.  I don't want to put it up *too* early and create too much change work for dougz, though!
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ednever

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 07:10:32 pm »
+6

Figures is unfortunately highly unlikely to be implemented on Iso.  This has nothing to do with the desire to do so, and everything to do with the fact that it'd be an absolute nightmare to code.  Every card interrupts basic game functionality in a different unique way, and we weren't exactly thinking of digital innovation when we designed it.  So...it'd be cool, but probably not anyplace on the radar.

Expansion #3, on the other hand, is much easier to implement, and likely will be.  Once it's at a stable beta state, it might be up for testing.  I don't want to put it up *too* early and create too much change work for dougz, though!

Wait! Are you saying it would be too difficult for Doug to code?!?!
Impossible!
This is the man that coded Dominion in his spare time - which took a team of developers at a venture backed company over a year to do.
I hear Doug once coded an exact replica of a lama. Not only that but it was a pregnant lama, who gave birth to twins, one of whom went on to be the king of lamas.

What is a Figure in the Sand to Doug's almighty coding.

I bet if it's possible Doug could do it. And anything's possible...

Ed
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popsofctown

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 07:14:58 pm »
0

I don't think anyone thinks dougz is not mighty enough for the task, it's a matter of how much time dougz commits.

It's probably a good idea to fix the bugs before moving on to expansions, also.
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BitTorrent

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 12:24:48 am »
0

I dont know python much but in-order to do FiS most likely you will need to build:
1. an extension to handle the FiS general gameplay (figure cards, inspire, fade, decree) which can be quite weird but manageable;
2. a 'listener system' to deal with the existing karma effects on the board, it could be a switch or parallel gate or something like that, just like a signaling system to handle which karma have to be deal with;
3. The karma set, most likely a set of functions, each function for a specific figure card. Since each figure has a discrete set of effect on the original scenario of the game, generalization of the karma effects will be difficult. The most sensible generalization is the type defined by the FiS FAQ (i.e. Different types of karma defined by the FAQ). What this may lead to is that you may need a case study for each figure card in the FiS set and build a set of operation for each card specifically. I do think it is possible, just a very tough one.
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Kirian

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 12:44:01 am »
+1

Doug could do it if he had the time and the chicken.  The man gas the power of chicken in his chicken.  Chicken to him and chicken chicken chicken.
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teasel

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 11:34:55 am »
0

hello!
i know a little of python and absolutely love this game,if there's anything i can do to help bring more cards to the game i'll be happy to help
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DWetzel

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2013, 09:29:37 am »
+1

Tony Stark could code Figures in the Sand in a cave.

With scraps.
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Darthcaboose

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2013, 02:25:35 pm »
0

In all seriousness, 105 different interruptable karma abilities? 3 of which keep other figures out on the board so that you might have multiple overlapping karma abilities? Not only will there need a handler to take care of the individual karma abilities, but you'd need something to handle the possible ordering of different karma effects on each other! Temporary achievements (Alfred Nobel and the like), increases in icons, the very confuddling wording that is Gilgamesh, logic to temporarily modify the numerical values inside the black-box (Archimedes and Albert Einstein), the ability to play Jeopardy? with Alex Trebek (do you type in the name or select from a list?), the game ending interrupt ability of Jackie Chan, and the ability to turn those black hexagons into echo effects with Stephen Hawking... These are just a few of the challenges that would have to be coded into Innovation!
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teasel

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2013, 03:18:16 pm »
0

once again i think i could do it or at least have a decent chance of doing it,for example take sunshu ao (the first card in figures) i assume dougz has wrote a function that tuck card so you could change that function to check if sunshu ao (and other card that says "if/when you tuck") is in your board,then if sunshu ao is in your board it checks if that card is yellow (i don't know how dougz coded but i assume every yellow card is a multiple of 5 starting from 3 so it'd be like 3,8,13,18 so you'd just do the module of 5 and see if it comes as 3,or maybe he has a value on every card and yellow card have value that says "Y") then i assume he has an "execute" function (for card like computer) so it would be just a matter of using that function on the tucked card and then you'd just need the return function (though that may need a little reworking... i don't recall any card returning bottom card into your hand)

of course i can see some card being hard (michelangelo for example) but it doesn't look impossible

Quote
logic to temporarily modify the numerical values inside the black-box (Archimedes and Albert Einstein

writing probably calls the draw function giving 2 as a value,you'd just need to change the draw function into something like

if archimedes == topcard:
x=x+1

and of course all the other function like tucking,melding and scoring

Quote
Temporary achievements (Alfred Nobel and the like)

surely if there is a function to add them,we can make a function to decrease them,the game would have just to check every turn whetever the number increase or decrease in the same way it already checks if you reached 12 clock for world

Quote
with Alex Trebek (do you type in the name or select from a list?)

nothing wrong with a list,it would be just a list of 10 cards since you are drawing from a single deck,you get longer list when you have 11 cards in hand and you have to return them all with physics
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 03:33:27 pm by teasel »
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ksasaki

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2013, 05:44:07 pm »
0

it is tricky, because all those "if, then" karma checks need to be checked against the existing 105 (210) other cards.  Just a lot of conditionals, but definitely not impossible, I'd be willing to spend some time working on it though!
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BitTorrent

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 01:12:55 am »
0

it is tricky, because all those "if, then" karma checks need to be checked against the existing 105 (210) other cards.  Just a lot of conditionals, but definitely not impossible, I'd be willing to spend some time working on it though!

Major problem on the karma itself is that some karma does transform the core mechanics of the game, say with Michelangelo your hand is actually count as in your scorepile and Meji would count your forecast as your hand, which means that effects related to scorepile and hand may actually altered say a Sanitation demand may take away your forecast cards instead of those in your hand and Translation may actually meld all your hand too. The workings on the existing handlers of the core game may have to be modified to accompany these.
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teasel

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2013, 06:06:52 am »
0

that's true but it's still perfectly doable

say your score pile is an array and your hand is another array,you make a function called checkmichelangelo  which says that if michelangelo is on a board then score = score + hand and then you put that function in every card that requires card from your score pile which would be... with all the list it shouldn't be hard to see which card that include's
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 06:15:12 am by teasel »
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zaratustra

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 11:35:07 am »
+1

Speaking as a programmer (ooh look at the PROGRAMMER), saying whether it's easy implementable or not hinges on looking at the source code.

Basically every card action (draw, meld, score, foreshadow, tuck, etc.) would have to call a function that checks if any figures perform an additional action or replace it.

Kinda like this pseudocode, for foreshadow:

function foreshadow(player, card)
{
 if (figures_test_foreshadow(player, card)) return;
/* old foreshadow code here*/
}

function figures_test_foreshadow(player, card) // returns true if the action has been replaced (instead), false if action can continue
{
  if (player_has_top_card("Shennong"))
  {
    if (card_value(card) in (map(all_cards_forecast(player)),|forecast_card| card_value(forecast_card)))
    map(all_cards_forecast(player),|forecast_card| if (card_value(forecast_card) == card_value(card)) score(player, card));
    return false;
  }
  if (player_has_top_card("Galileo Galilei"))
  {
    if (card_value(card) not in (map(all_cards_forecast(player)),|forecast_card| card_value(forecast_card)))
    map(all_cards_forecast(player),|forecast_card| transfer_to_hand(forecast_card,player));
    return false;
  }
  if (player_has_top_card("Christiaan Huygens"))
  {
    if (card_has_icon(card, "Lightbulb") and card_value(card) <= max(map(top_cards(player), |top_card| card_value(top_card))) + 2)
      { meld(player, card); return true; }
    else return false;
  }
  if (player_has_top_card("H. G. Wells"))
  {
    meld(player, card);
    execute_dogma_for_player_only(player, card);
    if (is_top_card(card)) remove(card);
    return true;
  }
}
end


See? Simple. Plus, all actions -within- a Karma action can't trigger other Karma actions, so you need some extra code for that.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 11:37:18 am by zaratustra »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 11:37:34 am »
0

See? Simple. Plus, you need some way to keep infinite loops from happening (Just what prevents Benjamin Franklin from triggering itself, anyway?)

If I remember correctly, there's a similar rule to how Magic does it, that replacement effects only affect any given event once, even if it looks like the replacement effect would still be applicable after affecting the event the first time.
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teasel

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2013, 11:53:50 am »
0

Speaking as a programmer (ooh look at the PROGRAMMER), saying whether it's easy implementable or not hinges on looking at the source code.

Basically every card action (draw, meld, score, foreshadow, tuck, etc.) would have to call a function that checks if any figures perform an additional action or replace it.

Kinda like this pseudocode, for foreshadow:

function foreshadow(player, card)
{
 if (figures_test_foreshadow(player, card)) return;
/* old foreshadow code here*/
}

function figures_test_foreshadow(player, card) // returns true if the action has been replaced (instead), false if action can continue
{
  if (player_has_top_card("Shennong"))
  {
    if (card_value(card) in (map(all_cards_forecast(player)),|forecast_card| card_value(forecast_card)))
    map(all_cards_forecast(player),|forecast_card| if (card_value(forecast_card) == card_value(card)) score(player, card));
    return false;
  }
  if (player_has_top_card("Galileo Galilei"))
  {
    if (card_value(card) not in (map(all_cards_forecast(player)),|forecast_card| card_value(forecast_card)))
    map(all_cards_forecast(player),|forecast_card| transfer_to_hand(forecast_card,player));
    return false;
  }
  if (player_has_top_card("Christiaan Huygens"))
  {
    if (card_has_icon(card, "Lightbulb") and card_value(card) <= max(map(top_cards(player), |top_card| card_value(top_card))) + 2)
      { meld(player, card); return true; }
    else return false;
  }
  if (player_has_top_card("H. G. Wells"))
  {
    meld(player, card);
    execute_dogma_for_player_only(player, card);
    if (is_top_card(card)) remove(card);
    return true;
  }
}
end


See? Simple. Plus, all actions -within- a Karma action can't trigger other Karma actions, so you need some extra code for that.

yep,yep... we have a bunch of programmers and pseudo programmers here who love the game so if dougz can't do it for any reason i don't see why we can't do it ourselves...
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ksasaki

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2013, 11:55:33 am »
0

well, someone needs to e-mail him!  I think I've spammed him enough about rules stickiness haha!
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teasel

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2013, 03:02:22 pm »
0

well, someone needs to e-mail him!  I think I've spammed him enough about rules stickiness haha!

i guess we would also need angelkurisu blessing?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2013, 03:46:58 pm »
0

Figures is unfortunately highly unlikely to be implemented on Iso.  This has nothing to do with the desire to do so, and everything to do with the fact that it'd be an absolute nightmare to code.

I think he'd be amenable.
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Darthcaboose

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Re: will Figures in the Sand be implemented?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 12:56:27 pm »
0

In all seriousness, 105 different interruptable karma abilities? 3 of which keep other figures out on the board so that you might have multiple overlapping karma abilities? Not only will there need a handler to take care of the individual karma abilities, but you'd need something to handle the possible ordering of different karma effects on each other! Temporary achievements (Alfred Nobel and the like), increases in icons, the very confuddling wording that is Gilgamesh, logic to temporarily modify the numerical values inside the black-box (Archimedes and Albert Einstein), the ability to play Jeopardy? with Alex Trebek (do you type in the name or select from a list?), the game ending interrupt ability of Jackie Chan, and the ability to turn those black hexagons into echo effects with Stephen Hawking... These are just a few of the challenges that would have to be coded into Innovation!

I just realized that Karma abilities never trigger off of each other. It is in the rules for Figures in the Sand, so that would be one less thing to worry about.

Although, in the odd case of maybe having multiple karma affects potentially triggering when something happens, logic would have to be written in to allow the user the option to pick which one occurs.
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