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Author Topic: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s  (Read 10693 times)

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rod-

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2011, 05:59:29 pm »
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Perhaps make it like a baby saboteur (anarchist!) and instead of just trashing things, trash things and then allow the victim to gain a replacement card of their choice (costing 1 less? 0 less?).  Then you're basically just trashing everyone's starting 10 (eventually), but that's more or less what i see the card doing most of the time anyway, but now without the super-variance up/down side.

On that topic, the current "more than 10 in current deck" clause should be considered...Is "deck" even a defined term in the dominion rules?  Does it constitute draw pile + discard pile, or just draw pile?  See philosopher's stone for the source of my confusion.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2011, 06:20:17 pm »
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But without counting house or stash, it doesn't DO anything!

It gets you your cards earlier.  This is a BIG deal.  People don't realize how big a deal it is because there are other problems with Chancellor, but think of the kind of tempo that you gain by getting a $5 action or a Gold just one or two turns earlier during the critical turns 5-10.  Those are the turns when your deck comes into its own or it doesn't, and getting an extra reshuffle or two in that time is honestly pretty huge.

Now, your card isn't that awful because you lose a lot of tempo buying it if you buy it for $3 or more.  But a lot of the time, you'll end up with a dead $2 turn anyway, and this card will be calling for you in that case.

Well, we'll see when I playtest it. I'm trying to figure out where it's so strong. Where would you prefer it to Library? (By the way, I think I'd prefer most 2s in existence to library now and then). But as I said, I'm looking at switching the +1 Action to +$1 if this is too strong.

Obviously, you prefer it to Library if you're tight on Actions.  So, basically, "Not Fishing Village," and probably "not Festival."  But Lighthouse, yes.  Minion?  Sure.  Nobles?  Even though it gives +2 Actions, yeah, probably, because you won't have a TON of Actions.  Haven?  Yes.  Warehouse?  Yes.

And defending against Militia and Goons and Cutpurse and Minion and non-repeated Torturers.  I mean, the ability of Library to not draw Actions dead is nice and all, but if I have an Action-based deck, it's only so nice.  Getting a hand full of copper and green is better than getting a hand full of dead Actions and green, but I'd generally rather have a 5 card hand of playable Actions than a 7 card hand full of low-end Treasure.

As I pointed out, Renew isn't THAT much tempo gain because of its non-optionness. You've GOT to discard. But I'm also not convinced that the tempo is worth all that much, in part because I don't get dead 2s all that often, and when I do, it's nice to have a little something. By no means do I think it's a game-breaker.

Squire: Okay, I don't really buy it being better with nobles or havens (if you get it in a turn AFTER haven, it's much more likely to be totally worthless). The others, it's only better in decks where you have lots of non-terminal non-villages that leave you with smaller hands. So yeah, warehouse, cellar, lighthouse, maybe minion, defending... depends on your deck. If you've got even halfway decent money-density of non-actions, Library is like "buy a province" in those situations. And I'm really not worried about the squire-warehouse combo just being so overpowered. But we'll see, I guess. I will test all of those suggestions close to first, once I get to it.

Thinkaman

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 02:10:07 am »
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I'm totally unconcerned about squire being bad with Lab and Smithy. So what? Every card doesn't have to have synergy with every other card. And just because you really like using those cards for engines doesn't mean everyone else does, or that there's no room for other kinds of engines. Where I am really concerned is about it being not useful enough often enough, and too strong when it is good. But I'm actually not so concerned about that even. The best kind of combo among what you've pointed out looks to be some kind of village-vault-squire, and that will give you $5 and a 5-card hand. Well, I'm not too worried about that, 'cause it's a 3 card combo from three different sets which doesn't totally break the game anyway. Well, okay, village could be any village, vault could be secret chamber (I don't understand how cellar is really that good here)... maybe you're right. We'll see in playtesting.

Vault/SC is the meanest case, but it's really good with all ~15 basic non-terminals.  Pretty much any of them at all, from Fishing Village to Upgrade--then you've also got village combos with hand reduction actions like trashers and BM.  All this is maybe too good for a typical $2 card, sure, but it's not the end of the world.

The issue is how mediocre it is with everything else.  Like, in the absence of those really great cases, it's just pointless.  It's a draw engine card that you can't build a "real" draw engine with.  The idea of an engine is to power through your deck faster and get to play more stuff.  Typically this means drawing your entire deck, which this card is counter-productive dead weight against.  You could almost imagine it working like Minion which is sort of a weird alternate draw engine, but Minion only really works because it combos with itself.  This card is only really enabled in that sort of way by a couple cards, unlike say Smithy which can build a draw engine with any of like 15 Villages.

I mentioned Celler because it's a good non-terminal lets you churn though your deck and find more hand-reducing non-terminals like it.

Servant's village: Unexciting? Maybe. I'm okay with that. The comparison here is fishing village, which it is except for the duration, which almost always makes it worse. But then it only costs 2. I'm not concerned, though it's obviously not spectacular. Again, playtesting will help.

I'm just not understanding why this card exists though.  It's not that it commits some cardinal sin--it's that what it offers isn't something I as a player want in my deck.  Normally if you offered me a random $2 card for free during a game of Dominion, I'd take it--only exceptions might be Moat, SC, and Herbalist about half the time.  But unless unless there's no other Villages at all and I badly need one, I'd never take a free +2 Actions +1 Coin card. (Just like I wouldn't normally take a free Copper.)

Bronze: Well, I've already posted my thoughts above. I expect even with the modified version, it's not going to be all that great all that often, but I do think it is interesting enough. We'll see - needs playtesting.

Your changed Bronze proposal is a lot more docile and has a lot of fun utility.  It's a worse but functional Haven that gives you $1!  This is great because Haven is great.  This version is not a self-perpetuating super strategy, and instead has fun plays and interactions with all sorts of other cards and decks.

Novice
Action         2
+1Action
Gain a card costing up to $3

I'm not sure why this costs $2?  You are right about the variance, but it's not a big enough problem to worry about--you are still going to have semi-interesting $3 options on a majority of boards.  Non-terminal Silver gain is nothing to scoff at.

This is a really powerful pile-emptying machine of course.  Like, to a kind of absurd level that slightly outpaces even Ironworks.  That's not innately bad, but it's something to consider.  Again, $2 is probably too low, else +Buys compound the effect pretty hard.

Renew
Action         2
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard your deck.

Chancellor doesn't do much because as an opening Chancellor is your more valuable card, and a terminal blocking other valuable cards.  A $2 non-terminal Chancellor is super powerful.  I'd buy it at $3, for sure.

Assassin
Action-Attack      2
+$1
Every other player reveals their hands. Choose a card for them to discard. Then each player draws a card.

Ew, targeted discard.  I think someone else mentioned that Donald wrote some stuff on why this was found to be a dead end filled with hurt feelings and tears.  It's high variation, kinda slow, and encourages bland, defensive deck construction.

Also this is *crazy* strong at $2!  Throw some Villages with these bad boys and man--they better have good trashing or hands are going to suck.

Oh, and multiplayer games are just going to get obnoxious with this, in ways Torturer and friends can only dream of.

Thinkaman:  Some great observations all around.  I'm not sure I entirely agree your aversion to mixing money and villages, though.  Villages are engine cards, and the ultimate goal of an engine is to accrue money, so if the engine cards themselves generate money (see: Minion, Bazaar), then that's a good thing, right?  But you're right that it would be one of the last choices for a Village-type card, because the modest $ boost isn't worth the drawing loss.

The catch is that money on a cantrip is a different animal than random money on some card like Chancellor.  That's why Peddler, Treasury, Market, Grand Market, Bazaar, and Conspirator are so great and cost as they are.

Besides Lighthouse and Fishing Village--which are as they are to be satisfying Durations--there is only one non-terminal card in all of Dominion that gives money without +1 Card.  That card, Festival, is a special case built around a +Buy; giving money with Actions doesn't make total sense, but a +Buy is an interesting resource and what goes with +Buy?  Money!  It's not random money thrown on, it's a built-in Woodcutter.

The +Buy on Festival is like pancakes--pancakes are good with chocolate, and they are also good with bacon, so maybe we can have all three at once. (Even if chocolate and bacon alone is still unnatural and weird.)
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rinkworks

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 10:03:25 am »
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The issue is how mediocre it is with everything else.  Like, in the absence of those really great cases, it's just pointless.  It's a draw engine card that you can't build a "real" draw engine with.  The idea of an engine is to power through your deck faster and get to play more stuff.  Typically this means drawing your entire deck, which this card is counter-productive dead weight against.  You could almost imagine it working like Minion which is sort of a weird alternate draw engine, but Minion only really works because it combos with itself.

This is roughly the same line of reasoning that led to this card of mine, which I'm pretty sure is my best card.  Not that it really has anything to do with WW's beyond a surface similarity.

Quote
Besides Lighthouse and Fishing Village--which are as they are to be satisfying Durations--there is only one non-terminal card in all of Dominion that gives money without +1 Card.  That card, Festival, is a special case built around a +Buy; giving money with Actions doesn't make total sense, but a +Buy is an interesting resource and what goes with +Buy?  Money!  It's not random money thrown on, it's a built-in Woodcutter.

The +Buy on Festival is like pancakes--pancakes are good with chocolate, and they are also good with bacon, so maybe we can have all three at once. (Even if chocolate and bacon alone is still unnatural and weird.)

This is a convincing argument, but I dunno.  Are you sure the real reason we don't see non-drawing non-terminal money earners is that they are, in fact, money?  "+1 Action, +$1" is functionally equivalent to a Copper, bar some interactions.  "+1 Action, +$2" is a Silver.  But Festival is cool not only because of the +Buy but because of the extra action.  That makes it Silver-with-two-bonuses.  That, to me, is the real reason we have Festival but not really any others like it.  Because with fewer bonuses, the differentiation from Silver is slighter.  With more or different bonuses...well, how many other bonuses are there other than card drawing?  (Caveat:  Potentially any number, but non-vanilla bonuses are more likely to be better suited to terminals.)

In a roundabout way, though, I'm agreeing with you.  "+2 Actions, +$1" is a Copper with only a single differentiator, and in particular one that doesn't work as well in the absence of +cards.  But I guess I don't buy that it's AS undesirable as you say, particularly at a $2 cost.  Its utility probably does depend on better Villages not being present, and I'd feel a little bit cheated if an official expansion used up a card slot on it.  But as a fan card that adds a touch of variety to a game that thrives on variety, I think it's kind of nice.

Ew, targeted discard.  I think someone else mentioned that Donald wrote some stuff on why this was found to be a dead end filled with hurt feelings and tears.

Do you remember where you read that?  I'd be curious to read more on that subject.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 10:06:28 am by rinkworks »
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Tejayes

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2011, 10:32:35 am »
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Because I'm such a stickler for good wording, I revised these cards so that they more accurately reflect the wording of the official cards. Don't worry -- none of the cards' effects have been altered because of this. I have also included my thoughts after each reworking.

SQUIRE
---
+$1
Draw until you have 5 cards in your hand.
--
Action - $2


(I referenced Library and Watchtower to know how to word this baby. As for a terminal Copper that works well with Festival/Fishing Village/Servants' Village/etc., I'd like to try it.)

SERVANTS' VILLAGE
---
+2 Actions
+$1
--
Action - $2


(Didn't need rewording, but I'm still worried that Fishing Village, while $1 higher, too ridiculously outranks this card. Yes, the same feeling about Warehouse over Cellar, but at least Cellar came out first.)

BRONZE
---
$1
When you play this, draw a card.
You may put a card in your hand on top of your deck.
--
Treasure - $2


(I think this is a bit too strong at $2. If you draw a Treasure, it's basically a cheap Venture without the forced-play mechanic. If you draw a Victory or Curse card, unless you're hoping to keep these cards around for Ambassador/Baron/whatever, you now have one less crapola card for your next turn. If you draw an Action card, you can simply put it back. In any case, if you have a card you want to save for the next turn, you can do so. It's like Courtyard, only not forced.)

NOVICE
---
+1 Action
Gain a card costing up to $3.
--
Action - $2


(I like this card, not to mention the already-perfect wording. The card-gaining power by itself would be a bit weak even at $2, so the +Action boosts its power just a bit. With Watchtower and a card-drawer in hand, this could be a wicked combo that's not too broken, but we'll see.)

RENEW
---
+1 Card
+1 Action
-
During your Cleanup phase, put your deck into your discard pile.
--
Action - $2


(The wording now reflects cards like Chancellor and Herbalist. I'm not the biggest fan of non-stacking effects, but this could be interesting.)

ASSASSIN
--
+$1
Each other player reveals his hand, then discards a card of your choice. Each player who discards a card this way draws two cards.
-
Action/Attack - $2


(Again, I'm with the people who hesitate around targeted discarding, but the +2 Cards deal nerfs the attack a bit. I think it could be reworked further so that each other player draws 2 cards post-attack no matter what. That way, they get cards even if their hand has somehow become zero, or if they play a Moat or have Lighthouse in play.)
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rinkworks

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2011, 11:37:12 am »
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Why not "+1 Card" on Bronze?  Contraband having "+1 Buy" is a precedent for vanilla bonus shorthand on treasure cards.
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Tejayes

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2011, 09:22:23 am »
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Why not "+1 Card" on Bronze?  Contraband having "+1 Buy" is a precedent for vanilla bonus shorthand on treasure cards.

For some reason, the "+1 Card" thing felt off to me. I was well-aware of Contraband's "+1 Buy," and felt it was appropriate due to the monetary nature of the card. Perhaps I'm just being weird. Here, I'll post an alternate wording...

BRONZE
---
$1
+1 Card
You may put a card from your hand on top of your deck.
--
Treasure - $2
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ChaosRed

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2011, 12:20:25 pm »
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I like Bronze, its balanced and useful.
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rinkworks

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2011, 11:22:49 am »
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Playtested Bronze.  I'm afraid I have to report that it's too strong for $2.

Took me a while to figure out why.  It's because a treasure worth $1 and offering +1 Card is basically...a Peddler!

The primary difference is that the Peddler can draw an action and then make use of it, while Bronze can "only" rescue it for next turn.  This is almost as good.  Not quite, but almost.  But Bronze has an advantage over Peddler to make up for it.  More often than I expected, I was using Bronze's "return to deck" feature to return excess coins to the top of my deck for next turn.  If I had $11, I'd save a Gold for next turn.  I did this more in playtesting than saving a dead Action, although I did that a lot too.  More than either, though, I was simply using the treasure I got or cycling the victory card I drew.  In those cases, it was acting like a true Peddler.

The version of Bronze without the optional "return to deck" is probably still too strong for $2 and is much less interesting in any case (as it promotes money strategies and is less differentiated from a weaker Venture).  A version with a *mandatory* "return to deck" may be a good way to moderate the power level and retain the interest of the card.  But I think it's a $3 card minimum anyway.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2011, 01:21:52 pm »
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Cool you play tested this. What if the option to return to the deck cost you something? Discard a card?

If you forced it and then adjusted the cost to 3, I don't think I'd buy it. I see the extreme value of putting Gold back on hands with too much money (and only one buy). It aids Big Money greatly I think, because this is common in BM hands. But forcing me to return something, that can hurt, so much so, I think I'd avoid the card. Of course that's just a noobish gut reaction, nothing more.
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mail-mi

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Re: Conquest (WW's Fan Double Expansion) - the 2s
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2011, 09:55:17 pm »
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Servants' Village
Action         2
+2 Actions
+$1

Yeah, a basic village-variant. Probably it could cost 3. I'm fine with it costing 2. It's usually going to be a fair bit worse than village, probably usually a little better than native village, but when it's worse it'll be a good bit worse, and when it's better, it might not be much better.
With this one, it seems very similar to Fishers village, which is at three and does the exact same thing, except it also gives you +1 action and +$1 on your next turn. If you make it +1 buy, it makes it awfully similar to Worker's Village, which is +1 card, +2 actions, +1 buy. Maybe give it some other effect with the +2 actions, similar to native village but with a completely different effect.
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