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Author Topic: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!  (Read 17081 times)

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thirtyseven

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I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« on: March 08, 2013, 12:39:37 pm »
+18

Note: I am just freely expressing my personal opinions here. If you identify with the group I'm ranting on, please don't take it personally. It could be I'm just reading you wrong. I'd love to hear your points of view for us to discuss as a community.

I'm switching to Goko because I love playing Dominion. Of course I am annoyed by some aspects of Goko, such as the chat box and the avatars. Of course I think Isotropic Dominion is better. But the game of Dominion---the love of the game---is what will make me happily switch to Goko. I like Goko because there you can play Dominion, the game I get a lot of enjoyment out of. I do not understand why anyone would quit playing Dominion just because of Goko. Unless you're playing Dominion IRL, you're giving up playing the game I thought you enjoyed. I don't understand how people seem to love the website Isotropic more than the game Dominion. It should be about the game, not the website it's on.
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soulnet

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2013, 01:00:26 pm »
+1

I think the point is that dominion.isotropic exists and the only obstacle for it to continue to exist is Goko. Playing on Goko is, to some extent, supporting them (even if you do not spend any money, a big player base is a must to attract new playing people).

You can think of it as a Goko boycott or a Goko strike. You may disagree with some or all of the boycotting actions or the strikes, but at least some of those proved useful in the past, so I don't see how you can say they are "intrinsecally" useless. I guess the analogous more extreme argument against a strike would be "is better to have a lousy job with a lousy pay than no pay at all" and for the boycotts it would be "is better to pay the cheapest price for this shirt, why not buy the sweatshop kid-exploiting brand?". Of course Goko did nothing as bad as that (not even close), but the response against Goko some people have is also not extreme, and at least in my opinion, adequate.

For my own opinion, Goko did not work ok or better even once. Isotropic, on the other hand, works perfectly. When Iso is down if Goko is a nice activity, I may review my position. I doubt I'll get hooked up on Goko as I was hooked up by Isotropic, though, in the same way I was never hooked up on BSW, even though I've had regular affairs with many of the games they carry.
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DStu

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2013, 01:16:54 pm »
+3

Don't know if it's a strike, maybe in some weak form, for me it's just not an implementation that is worth $45, compared to other video games. .  Maybe if you rationally calculate time*fun/price, it would be not the worst deal, but for me, that's the wrong calculation.  First, I doubt fun will really be as large if there are the small itches like chat, or ...wevebeenthrouhthisbefore. Second, it's a bit game theory: If I buy things that are not worth their price anyway just because they a monopolized, I support developing subpar products and preventing better products just via IP rights.  And I really have no fun doing this.

Not saying that exclusive license is a bad thing or that I know something better, but if you get exclusive rights better develop a good product and behave fairly, otherwise I will be very tempted to use my little bit of power I have in this game of free market to make this kind of concept less profitable.
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thirtyseven

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2013, 01:25:00 pm »
0

My argument is that a strike or boycott (whatever you want to call it) isn't worth giving up online Dominion for, and that Goko is become acceptable enough to make the switch. And it seems like Goko will continue to improve, not get worse. Thanks for both of your opinions, which did clarify things for me. I just still respectfully disagree.
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Cuzz

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 01:36:07 pm »
+7

You guys know you can play on Goko for free, right?

And thirtyseven is right. Whatever deep moral objections you may have, if you don't switch, you're quitting playing online Dominion. And that's fine, if you don't care that much about playing online Dominion. But come next week there will be but one way to play, and there will be no point comparing the experience to one that no longer exists. It will be comparing apples and some long-extinct genetic precursor to apples.

Folks who really like to play Dominion online and are really sad but who refuse to switch just seem like they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.
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Awaclus

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2013, 02:06:57 pm »
0

I would be willing to pay for Isotropic. But if I knew that you could optionally pay for an expansion for Isotropic and that DougZ was using the money for trying to legalize slavery or something, I would refuse to play it, even for free. Right, Goko is not at fault for the copyright law, but they are willingly choosing to utilize it which is a much smaller sin in my eyes, but still something I disagree with. And for me it's easier to stick to IRL Dominion than support someone I disagree with.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2013, 02:11:46 pm »
+5

But come next week there will be but one way to play, and there will be no point comparing the experience to one that no longer exists. It will be comparing apples and some long-extinct genetic precursor to apples.

No, it will be like comparing apples to some apples I just ate last week, which seems like a pretty reasonable comparison to make amongst apples.

edit: Comparing Goko to isotropic will be relevant at any stage in Goko's development because isotropic is an example of how Dominion can be implemented online. The good features of isotropic are still things to reasonably expect in any online implementation.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:14:48 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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thirtyseven

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2013, 02:31:20 pm »
+1

Another argument I can make is that we've all been blessed, and spoiled, by Isotropic Dominion. The rights holders to the game could have prevented dougz from making his own implementation in the first place. Iso was great while it lasted, but it was a bonus, not a given. I say we're entitled to be able to play online Dominion, and that we're not necessarily entitled to have a free, Iso-esque implementation of it. I think we have to let go of that high sense of entitlement.
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eHalcyon

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2013, 02:32:15 pm »
+1

It will be comparing apples and some long-extinct genetic precursor to apples.

I sure miss isopples.
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dondon151

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2013, 02:42:14 pm »
0

OP is missing the point.

I do not understand why anyone would quit playing Dominion just because of Goko.

Oh, I don't know, because I can't afford it, both in terms of time and money?

Look, one of my pet peeves is when someone declares "please don't take this personally, but I'm going to insult you publicly." You're just covering your ass by trying to be nice.
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Watno

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2013, 02:48:25 pm »
0

How is not understanding you an insult? You can play on Goko without spending any money, and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso. So I don't understand you either, sorry if that insults you.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2013, 02:54:16 pm »
+3

How is not understanding you an insult? You can play on Goko without spending any money, and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso. So I don't understand you either, sorry if that insults you.

The OP seems to suggest that all True Dominion Fans should want to make the switch to Goko, because True Dominion Fans love Dominion enough to play online no matter what (this is the insulting part). Those who don't switch are merely stubborn Isotropic fanboys or something (also insulting). As dondon clearly points out, this thing costs Actual Monies, and so any person could reasonably decide not to switch because they don't want to spend the cash if the product isn't up to their standards (whatever those standards may be).
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Awaclus

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2013, 03:09:07 pm »
0

Another argument I can make is that we've all been blessed, and spoiled, by Isotropic Dominion. The rights holders to the game could have prevented dougz from making his own implementation in the first place.
And I would have criticized them for that, too.
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dondon151

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2013, 03:13:35 pm »
+2

How is not understanding you an insult?

It isn't, but the implications in the OP, as Mic pointed out, are insulting.

You can play on Goko without spending any money,

Yeah okay I'm not going to play Goko if I can only play the base set or if I have to piggyback off other users whom I don't even know in order to play with the expansions.

and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso.

Really, now? As far as matchmaking and gameplay speed go, both of those are more time-consuming on Goko than on Iso. Psychologically I would feel obligated to spend more time on Goko if I paid for it (whereas I play Iso almost exclusively during down time at work).

Note that Dominion is not my life, and I'm certain that's true for almost everyone here. I am not obligated to continue playing Dominion out of some sense of loyalty or love for the game. There are infinitely (well, not technically) many other ways in which I can choose to spend my time that are some combination of more fun, more fulfilling, and less expensive than playing Dominion on Goko. At some point we all have to move on, and the advent of Goko is as good a time as any.

The only reason why Goko is even marginally successful at this point is because they have eliminated the rest of the competition. Goko is safely sitting on a monopoly of gaming licenses and reaping the profits of reluctant converts and casual players who wouldn't know of better alternatives. In a hypothetical free market of online boardgaming, there is no way that Goko would be remotely competitive. The general tone of the majority of players here who are forced to convert to Goko is one of grudging reluctance; only a select few players would happily admit to preferring Goko over Iso, and even then I suspect that part of that is due to a Fox-News-esque desire to present a "fair and balanced" opinion.

I do not disagree that a Goko boycott would not change the course of online boardgaming. As I've said before, the fact of the matter is that several months from now, Goko naysayers will have been forgotten and the Dominion community will progress as it always has. There are simply too many people willing to pay $45 for a thoroughly mediocre product (because $45 is pocket change to most) for a boycott to effective, especially now that all alternatives to online Dominion have been shut down.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 03:35:09 pm by dondon151 »
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gryph202

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2013, 03:16:58 pm »
0

I really don't think a boycott is going to accomplish much in this instance, which is why I am not on board.  Some of the things I have seen people say in other places besides this forum look childish to me, and only give me more reason to distance myself from the red-hot Goko haters.

Whether Goko lives or dies or even thrives on its own merit remains yet to be seen.  I just can't get that worked up about a game.  A game!
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thirtyseven

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2013, 03:38:06 pm »
+1

There are 3 new replies since I typed this out, so I'm just going to post this and worry about the other posts later.
OP is missing the point.

I do not understand why anyone would quit playing Dominion just because of Goko.

Oh, I don't know, because I can't afford it, both in terms of time and money?

Look, one of my pet peeves is when someone declares "please don't take this personally, but I'm going to insult you publicly." You're just covering your ass by trying to be nice.

You'll just have to take my word for it I meant no offense. I'm sorry my wording didn't convey that better.
As to your argument, time and money spent on Goko can be the same as the time and money you spent on Iso. I haven't paid for anything yet on Goko; you get the Base set for free. If you can't spend any time on Goko, then that's a perfect reason not to switch, but that would also mean you can't spend time on Iso either, and my arguments are not directed against you in the first place.

How is not understanding you an insult? You can play on Goko without spending any money, and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso. So I don't understand you either, sorry if that insults you.

The OP seems to suggest that all True Dominion Fans should want to make the switch to Goko, because True Dominion Fans love Dominion enough to play online no matter what (this is the insulting part). Those who don't switch are merely stubborn Isotropic fanboys or something (also insulting). As dondon clearly points out, this thing costs Actual Monies, and so any person could reasonably decide not to switch because they don't want to spend the cash if the product isn't up to their standards (whatever those standards may be).

I do agree with both of you that having to pay for the expansions is a perfectly valid reason to not switch to Goko, and I mistakenly failed to mention that in my first post. It makes you no less of a "true Dominion fan" if you don't switch. That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm sorry it came across that way. Playing IRL is just as valid. If you stop playing altogether (permanently), online and IRL, then yes, I would question your love for the game.

The point of this thread was to share my perceptions on this situation and get feedback from other points of view to help clarify things, and that's what's been happening. I'm totally open to changing my opinions based on our discussion. Again, I would like to apologize to all those insulted my my words.
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dondon151

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 03:40:00 pm »
0

If you can't spend any time on Goko, then that's a perfect reason not to switch, but that would also mean you can't spend time on Iso either, and my arguments are not directed against you in the first place.

This is false. Read my post again (though I understand that you may not have gotten to it yet, but I just want to point out that I've already established why Goko's time cost is different from Iso's time cost, the least of which is the fact that Goko is slower.)
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gryph202

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2013, 03:48:25 pm »
+2

My perception is that Goko screwed things up royally by using an untested technology and they managed to somehow convince a lot of licsenors and licensees that HTML 5 was really more than a fad.  News flash:  it wasn't.  And still isn't.

My perception is that game companies/designers were foolish to jump on that bandwagon.  Many did, but not all.  Chris C. didn't, and I'm glad that he didn't.

My perception is that if going with Goko really was as bad an idea as I feared, Jay T. and Donald X. will end up paying dearly for that bad choice one way or another.  It will hurt a lot more than any organized boycott could.

My perception is that it will take time to know if Goko will be successful in any practical business sense.  I believe the disastrous roll out last August hurt them, but for some reason, they're still around.  Venture capitalists do like to at least recoup their investments.

My perception is that Dominion =/= Isotropic.  Dominion is a solid game.  Isotropic is a solid foundation for online board gaming.  Perhaps, should he so choose, DougZ could go on to commercialize his platform somehow someday.  I have had the privilege of playing Innovation on Isotropic, and I think Chris C. and Carl Chudyk are going to be occupying a lot of my time online whereas Jay T. and Donald X. used to, but Dominion itself is a solid product.  I'd encourage my fellow gamers to remember that the GAME is not the PLATFORM, and vice versa.

Thirtyseven, I hope that whether this gives you any new insight or not, I at least sound reasonable.  With all the screeching harpies out there whining about Donad X. being a "money-grubbing whore"(not my words!  I actually saw that on a status in the Iso Dominion lobby!), I think we all need to step back and gain a little perspective.  Dominion's not dying.  And neither is Iso.  They will both live and thrive in their own respective rights, just not as a part of one another.
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ackack

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2013, 04:03:16 pm »
0

My perception is that Dominion =/= Isotropic.  Dominion is a solid game.  Isotropic is a solid foundation for online board gaming.

I think this statement is pretty grandiose - much of what you're calling "Isotropic" is likely quite specific to Dominion UI, and the parts that aren't don't seem particularly different from how internet game servers have run for a long time. I've looked briefly at Innovation (which I'm not familiar with) and it doesn't look nearly as amenable to the isotropic style UI that fits Dominion so well. More than most games I know, Dominion fits really well with being played online. (edit: That said, I'm now interested in learning Innovation, so mission accomplished there. We'll have to see if a remotely comparable player base ever gets established.)

I'm having a hard time imagining being offended over one's true Dominion fanhood being impugned. I guess that's a meta-insult.
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gryph202

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2013, 04:08:20 pm »
0

My perception is that Dominion =/= Isotropic.  Dominion is a solid game.  Isotropic is a solid foundation for online board gaming.

I think this statement is pretty grandiose - much of what you're calling "Isotropic" is likely quite specific to Dominion UI, and the parts that aren't don't seem particularly different from how internet game servers have run for a long time. I've looked briefly at Innovation (which I'm not familiar with) and it doesn't look nearly as amenable to the isotropic style UI that fits Dominion so well. More than most games I know, Dominion fits really well with being played online. (edit: That said, I'm now interested in learning Innovation, so mission accomplished there. We'll have to see if a remotely comparable player base ever gets established.)

I'm having a hard time imagining being offended over one's true Dominion fanhood being impugned. I guess that's a meta-insult.

I've had some people say that on the other hand, they believe that Innovation fits the Isotropic UI better.  I'm agnostic on that point as I don't do online programming.  I just know that I enjoy playing Dominion (which I played tabletop first), and I enjoy playing Innovation (which I have yet to play tabletop, but I intend to purchase a copy now).  Innovation's existence as an Isotropic game is pretty strong evidence to me that the game doesn't equal the platform -- and that's coming from someone who thinks that Goko's rollout was a disaster, and whom has no intent of ever spending money there.

I don't find the OP here particularly galling or insulting.  It's the childish anonymous insults I see being flung at RGG and Donald X. that really annoy me, but it says more about the whiny little "I'm entitled to free stuff" hippies than it says about what may yet turn out to be a poor business decision on RGG's part.
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thirtyseven

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2013, 04:11:17 pm »
0

If you can't spend any time on Goko, then that's a perfect reason not to switch, but that would also mean you can't spend time on Iso either, and my arguments are not directed against you in the first place.

This is false. Read my post again (though I understand that you may not have gotten to it yet, but I just want to point out that I've already established why Goko's time cost is different from Iso's time cost, the least of which is the fact that Goko is slower.)

Okay, fair enough (and I had yet to read your other post until now). I haven't tried matchmaking on Goko; I've only played there with bots or IRL friends. You make a good point, although the gameplay is fast enough for me personally. It's not as fast as Iso, but I don't think we should be comparing Goko and Iso (again, just my opinion).

Let's see where this apple analogy goes. Let me know if you (plural) would add or change anything:

You're used to getting these big, juicy apples for free, but all of a sudden they are no longer available at your favorite Grand Market. Everyone agrees that sucks. Now, another Market (which some say is Ruined!) is selling slightly smaller apples (to reflect the time cost difference btw/ Iso and Goko) for 500 applcoins per 1/3lb, a (really stupid) currency invented by the Market and translates to about $1.99/lb. Most agree that this is a fair price for apples, even though people used to get them for free. Oh yeah, and you can get an individual slice of apple for free, which satisfies some but not most.

If you say you love apples, but can't afford them, I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, but you already have a lifetime supply of them at home so never go to the Market (IRL analogy), I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, and can afford them, but never buy and eat them, then and only then will I accuse you of not liking apples.

Edit: added Gokoins to the analogy :P
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 04:19:08 pm by thirtyseven »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2013, 04:22:56 pm »
+5

I like apples, I can afford them, I don't buy them if they have worms.
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thirtyseven

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2013, 04:31:15 pm »
0

I like apples, I can afford them, I don't buy them if they have worms.

Haha. IMO they're no Grand Market Gala apples, but they're not worm-infested, either. Maybe they were at first but not anymore.
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blueblimp

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2013, 05:01:58 pm »
+3

Another argument I can make is that we've all been blessed, and spoiled, by Isotropic Dominion. The rights holders to the game could have prevented dougz from making his own implementation in the first place. Iso was great while it lasted, but it was a bonus, not a given. I say we're entitled to be able to play online Dominion, and that we're not necessarily entitled to have a free, Iso-esque implementation of it. I think we have to let go of that high sense of entitlement.
If isotropic had not existed, then I might not have ever tried Goko at all. The chance of me spending money on Goko is much higher because isotropic exists. Given how bad Goko's singleplayer and match-making are, in a non-isotropic world, would I even have realized how fun competitive Dominion can be?
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dondon151

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Re: I'm switching to Goko, because Dominion > Isotropic!
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2013, 05:17:42 pm »
+4

It's not as fast as Iso, but I don't think we should be comparing Goko and Iso (again, just my opinion).

If I knew how good online Dominion could be, how could I not expect to be disappointed when an inferior product is forced upon me?

If you say you love apples, but can't afford them, I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, but you already have a lifetime supply of them at home so never go to the Market (IRL analogy), I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, and can afford them, but never buy and eat them, then and only then will I accuse you of not liking apples.

That's not all. I have pears too (Asian pears at that, and I love Asian pears), and those are free. Not just pears, too - clementines, kiwifruits, and cantaloupe, which are among my favorite fruits. Why pay for crappy apples when I have those?
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