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Author Topic: Will You Switch to Goko?  (Read 24617 times)

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olneyce

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2013, 11:24:52 am »
+1

The interface.

I just...can't.  I realize that this is an area where plenty of people seem to prefer it over the minimalism of Iso.  But there's just no chance I will enjoy spending a significant amount of my time looking at that.

I'll probably check back here occasionally, and will try to play IRL when I have the chance.  But I think my serious Dominion days will be ending next week. 

It's been fun.
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2013, 11:26:08 am »
+2

I will be switching to Goko when iso goes down and not a minute earlier. I am doing this because I'm an addict and bad crack is better than no crack at all.

DISCLAIMER: I have never used, nor do I ever plan to use any recreational drugs.

And I will die a little inside. It disgusts me that I will be paying my money for a product that I could probably do a better job of developing myself and have no control over whether or not it gets better.

...but that's how much I like Dominion. Now where's my razor blade?
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DStu

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2013, 11:34:57 am »
0

The game logs are published.  They have been for awhile.  The log format is simple.  I think it would be easier to make a councilroom for goko than a councilroom for iso because of the simplicity in the log format.
Yes, but my problem is that there is no real motivation and no real communication from their part. Is this their final log format?  And you don't get them zipped, the last time I wanted some the best I found was got curl | grep | sed | xargs wget them one by one, which is much larger than needed and also gives quite low bandwidth because you download 10k small files. Per Day. And it's probably also not very good for their server.

Anyway, this is not a show-stopper, but it's also not really harvesting the power of the community as it could have been with: "Hey, we see you have this fantastic project over there, this is the format our logs will keep; so feel free to also include goko, if you have feedback contact us."
Or maybe you have gotten such a mail and they only didn't post public, but I doubt it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 11:36:45 am by DStu »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2013, 11:40:56 am »
+3

As long as it is worse than Iso, no.

After March 15th, I guarantee that it will not be worse than Iso. Assuming that by "worse" you mean a worse place to go and play Dominion online.
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2013, 12:08:37 pm »
0

After March 15th, I guarantee that it will not be worse than Iso. Assuming that by "worse" you mean a worse place to go and play Dominion online.
By "worse", I mean a worse online Dominion implementation.
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OgreMkV

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2013, 12:20:53 pm »
0

I won't be switching.  I played a few games last night on it and hated it.  It was slow and clunky.  I've always been more of a minimalist when it comes to interfaces and things like that.  The interface is so busy.  It really bothers me.

If someone had said, "$3 a month for unlimited isotropic and we'll add dark ages", then awesome.  I would have signed on in a second.  But, I think that this is as good a time as any to find something else to do.

And it's a shame too, I finally got the hang of Dominion and went from level 6 to 14 in about a week.
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2013, 12:23:13 pm »
+1

OTOH, no zip file, but an index file with links to logs means a cr for goko could up date immediately, rather than having a day latency.

Goko has been more than reasonable with the logs, IMO.
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TheSadPanda

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2013, 12:42:31 pm »
0

No, well 90% No...I tired it, I cant get in to it...its too slow/the matchmaking portion is a major issue for me, the UI is a major issue for me, the placement of the chat box over your "clicking area" during play is a major issue for me...speed of play is an issue for me...

That all being said (and I will make a post on the 14th about this) I may come over some day...I truly love the game, love playing it in RL but even more so, love playing it w you guys on ISO...

...anyways...

I will miss ISO, and would have paid quite a bit more $, then what Goko is charging to keep it here...

TSP
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DStu

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2013, 12:57:15 pm »
0

OTOH, no zip file, but an index file with links to logs means a cr for goko could up date immediately, rather than having a day latency.

Goko has been more than reasonable with the logs, IMO.

I agree that the logs is one of the thing that is on the better side, just saying "exploiting" the community could have been better.

Also the index file is quite large, I think you would scale down from "immediately" to "every 10 minutes" or so, but that's a minor problem...
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2013, 01:23:42 pm »
+1

- interface. many have called for a more bare bones or text interface. something simpler, faster, and less distracting. it would be hard for me to picture gary kasparov honing his skills on battle chess for windows 3.0. you could arguably lump things like point/deck counters into this as well

Ohmygod I completely forgot how much I missed battle chess.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2013, 02:22:55 pm »
+1

I will probably play on Goko some once isotropic goes down, but I won't pay them any money until the ridiculous log/chat design is fixed and a better lobby/matchmaking system is implemented. And yes, I know about the log extension. But if the users have to fix your product to make it playable, then your product isn't worth my money.

edit: This should go without saying, but there should be an option to completely disable animations. Very fast animations are fast enough for play, but they are visually distracting and ugly. Actually the whole thing is ugly, and people touting "prettiness" as a Goko advantage are not welcome to decorate my home.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:45:15 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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ddubois

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2013, 03:26:24 pm »
0

I've sufficiently burnt myself out on Dominion that the lack of isotropic Dominion probably represents an improvement to my life.  I only play it joylessly out of habit, with the outcome being either I'm apathetic when I win or get out-played (not often, but it happens), and enraged and stressed when I get outdrawn.  :'(

I'm try-harding on RFTG on boardgamearena now.  I can't stay over 1700 and it's driving me nuts.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2013, 04:23:53 pm »
0

After March 15th, I guarantee that it will not be worse than Iso. Assuming that by "worse" you mean a worse place to go and play Dominion online.
By "worse", I mean a worse online Dominion implementation.

Then yes, after March 15th Isotropic will be a far worse online Dominion implementation. It will be absolutely terrible.
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2013, 04:28:22 pm »
+1

Then yes, after March 15th Isotropic will be a far worse online Dominion implementation. It will be absolutely terrible.
No, it will still continue to be pretty good. Just like the improvised solo that was not recorded that I heard a pianist play a while ago.
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Warrior

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2013, 06:20:02 pm »
0


Why is the poll discrete? I want to see who's switching over! I'm a "probably". Probably won't play as much, but I'll probably want to enough to part with $40ish.

I was making this post in a rush so I wasn't paying nuch attention to poll settings. I will switch the poll.
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2013, 06:21:55 pm »
0

Why is the poll discrete? I want to see who's switching over! I'm a "probably". Probably won't play as much, but I'll probably want to enough to part with $40ish.

sorry it won't let me switch the settings of poll visibility.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 08:12:22 pm by Warrior »
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werothegreat

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2013, 06:50:41 pm »
0

I think I've said this before, but:

Goko is most likely aiming for a more casual userbase, ostensibly because there are a lot more casual players than tournament players.  Casual players don't care if there's a log showing on the screen.  Casual players don't need everything to happen instantaneously to get 5 minute games.  Casual players want a nice-looking interface over a minimalist one.  Casual players aren't going to want to play one-player games.  So yes, iso can be considered market research, but not for the market Goko is aiming to sell to.

Also, one thing Goko does better - I only found out today that I could look at the trash in iso by clicking the "info" button.  I had never before known I could do that.
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2013, 07:14:24 pm »
+2

http://dominion.isotropic.org/faq/

How do I see ... during the game?
    Normally you're shown just your hand and the size of your draw and discard piles. Clicking the info button near your hand will bring up a window with everything (I believe) the rules entitle you to see:

        the contents of the trash
        number of cards held by other players
        contents of various mats (Pirate Ship, Island, etc.) of all the players
        contents of the players' play areas
        cards available in the Black Market deck
        etc.

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2013, 09:22:22 pm »
+6

I think I've said this before, but:

Goko is most likely aiming for a more casual userbase, ostensibly because there are a lot more casual players than tournament players.  Casual players don't care if there's a log showing on the screen.  Casual players don't need everything to happen instantaneously to get 5 minute games.  Casual players want a nice-looking interface over a minimalist one.  Casual players aren't going to want to play one-player games.  So yes, iso can be considered market research, but not for the market Goko is aiming to sell to.

I think this is a load of nonsense, both in terms of how you describe Goko's target audience and whether their implementation of online Dominion actually provides a good experience for that kind of player. This will probably be a lotlonger than it needs to be. Also, ten people probably already said it somewhere else, more concisely.

What is a casual player?
Some of your characteristics:
1. Prefers "Nice looking interface over minimalist one"
2. Doesn't want fast games
3. Doesn't want one player games

I don't know how you're so confident you've pinned down the aesthetic preference of the general population. I'm not convinced based on the reactions I've seen that Goko style visuals are preferred by more people (though I'll admit we've got a strong iso bias here). Official card art is nice, but official card art inside the Goko interface is like putting {nice thing} into {crappy thing}. I'm bad at analogies.

I think you're dead wrong about number two. Beginners might not initially want fast games, but the casual player definitely does. They're casual, the shorter the time investment between loading the application and getting the joyful experience the better. In the course iPhone Apps 101, there is probably an entire unit devoted to shortening the user experience into smaller chunks. It would be a big mistake to conflate beginners with casual players, but of course the ideal system is friendly to both.

I think number 3 is wrong because one player games are fast and low pressure while still maintaining the core experience. Casual players will eat this up.

The Goko interface is not friendly to casual players. The lack of a side by side text log means that more focus is required playing on Goko than on isotropic. This, I think you will agree, is not casual friendly. A "tournament" player will have a much easier time (relative to a casual) at understanding what is happening in a game based solely on animations. Because an experienced player basically knows what his opponent is likely to do based on the actions they played/direction of their deck. Of course a tournament player won't prefer the animations over a log, because one systems work a lot better. But I think the casual player will prefer a log as well. The wonky chat interface isn't friendly to anyone. This has been discussed a lot, but the pricing structure is clearly not in the range of other casual offerings.

Things I think a casual player might prefer:
1. Short time commitment
2. Simple (functional) system to interact with.
3. Cheap.

Last pointless paragraph: isotropic users are mostly "casual" and clearly a part of Goko's target audience. When I play on isotropic, I slouch down way low in my chair, I squint at the monitor and I pray to God that the Mint I just tried to buy wasn't a Mine. Sometimes I don't type gg because my hand is too far away from the keyboard and I don't want to move it. I don't hydrate properly, warm-up, stretch, and then get my game face on. When I'm bored I get on iso and I play a few games of Dominion. If the game is real exciting, I might sit up and count how many Provinces my opponent has to see if I can end the game with a win, sometimes I just cross my fingers and buy the card. It's pretty darn casual. I bet a lot of people play the same way. I happen to be bored a lot, so I play too much, and that leads to the thousands of games (also they are fast ya know). In general, playing at a high skill level (at least in Dominion) doesn't preclude playing casually. There's this whole community perception that we are Elite Dominion Players because, look at us, we're spending all this time playing Dominion and writing/reading stuff on Dominion Strategy forums, but I don't really buy it. There's a whole lot of talk, but I think it's mostly for fun and doesn't amount to a lot of real skill development. (This paragraph seems less and less relevant as I write it). Back on track, we are people with money who like to play Dominion online, HOW COULD WE POSSIBLY NOT BE A PART OF GOKO'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC? I'm not saying we're the whole pie, but we're in the crust somewhere. Clearly our expectations/experience have some relevance to the proper design of an online implementation.
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werothegreat

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2013, 10:21:05 pm »
+2

Am I the only who doesn't give a crap about the log?  The only thing I ever use the log for is to check what turn it is, and that only because people get pissy in comments on my YouTube videos that I take too many turns.  This would be remedied by a little turn counter in some corner.  Having it on normal or fast is fast enough for me to see what's going on, and Goko is at a point where the speed of the game is almost completely dictated by the speed of the player.  And - if you switch over to another tab, your interface essentially pauses, and all the things you would have missed are quickly played out.  And casual players aren't going to care about a log.

As for your points off of mine:

1) Maybe this is just me, then.  I prefer the look of Goko.  There.  I said it.  Sue me.

2) Let me rephrase.  Yes, everyone wants things to go at a nice pace and not be slow, laggy or boring.  But casual players don't necessarily need the instantaneousness of iso.  For example, if you're playing Civilization, you don't mind that a little animation plays as something happens.  You don't need everything to happen instantly.  To me, looking nicer > being instantaneous.

3) One player games are mainly for testing out new strategies.  Dominion is sometimes pejoratively called "multiplayer solitaire," but it's not actually solitaire.  You're still competing for Provinces, and that's the whole point of the game - to get more points than someone else.  If there's no "someone else," there's no point.  You can't "win" if you're not playing against someone.  So, no, I cannot see casual players dying to play a solitaire version.  They might try it if it's available, but I don't think they'd be clamoring for it.

As to what you think they might prefer:

1) 20 minutes tops.  That's long to you?
2) It is functional.
3) You can play it FOR FREE.
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dondon151

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 11:54:33 pm »
+1

3) One player games are mainly for testing out new strategies.  Dominion is sometimes pejoratively called "multiplayer solitaire," but it's not actually solitaire.  You're still competing for Provinces, and that's the whole point of the game - to get more points than someone else.  If there's no "someone else," there's no point.

The experience that I gained playing solitaire far outweighs the experience that I've gained playing ~500 2-player games. Solitaire Dominion is an invaluable tool for any player seeking to quickly improve at the game.

3) You can play it FOR FREE.

Can you please stop saying this? Playing Goko for free is like eating only the crust of a cheesecake. I want to play Dominion in its entirety, not only the base set. If my only option to play Dominion for free was to either be restricted to a watered down version of the game or to hunt for open games with multiple expansions, that is not "free." That is Goko dangling a carrot in front of my face and begging me to pay them.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 11:57:04 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2013, 01:29:39 am »
+1

The experience that I gained playing solitaire far outweighs the experience that I've gained playing ~500 2-player games. Solitaire Dominion is an invaluable tool for any player seeking to quickly improve at the game.

Bullshit. I'll grant you that it's useful, but only for cards that aren't interactive and even then only up to a point. You're far overstating it to try to make a point.
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dondon151

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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2013, 01:44:12 am »
0

The World Masters tournament was, what, August 18, 2012? Councilroom.com says that dondon151 has somewhere around <5 games on Iso before September 1, 2012 and the earliest scraped log was on September 13.

I had around 220 games logged on Iso when the f.DS tournament started. Since then I've added around 250 games to my alt account, cbaka. I'll let the data speak for itself...
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2013, 02:02:04 am »
+1

Well, I tried to play on Goko over the past 2 days.  I have to say I don't mind the in game as much as I thought I would.  However, there are some problems I encountered:

1)  Finding games with people is near impossible.
1A)  Finding games with people that know how to play dominion is even more impossible.
1B)  Finding games with people that know how to play dominion and have more than base dominion is impossible.
2)  The chat function is horrid.  At least in Iso, you can easily say "Good luck, have fun" or more if you want.
3)  Not telling what turn you are on without opening up the whole log is annoying.
4)  Having so many lobbies is weird, and filling up at 50 makes it even harder to find games.
5)  Not having some indication in the tab that it is my turn is very annoying, especially when I was playing slow players.
6)  Adventure mode is still really wonky.  Like... I get all 8 provinces and that's still a 1 star?
6A)  Who thought it was a good idea to alter the starting deck states?  Like... why bother with that at all?
6B)  Why does Adventure mode crash my computer every other time I try it?  Like... I have no problem with the other modes, but that just kills my computer.
7)  Why are there so many 3 / 4 player games and so few 2 player games?  I realize dominion is "recommended" for 3 / 4 players, but bleh.  Why not split up the lobbies based on the number of players that you want to have in your game?
8 )  For the play now thing, why can't you choose how many players you want in your "play now" game?  I don't want to play 3 / 4 player games against 2 / 3 people that are slow and inexperienced.
9)  Is there a way to tell in the ranked matches if your opponent owns expansions?  Or is it automatically just up in the air whether it will be base or something else?
10)  Is there an easy way to tell how good someone is on Goko?  Because, the ranking system seems really wonky and easily skewed.  Like, I played 10 games and didn't lose any and moved up from like 5000 to 50.  Is there any reliability in the levels, or is it just pure luck whether you'll play someone who knows NV / Bridge vs. buy estates on every $2!
11)  Are the bots as easy to beat as they seem?  Or is that just the first impression?
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Re: Will You Switch to Goko?
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2013, 03:17:03 am »
+1

3) You can play it FOR FREE.

People playing it for free are clearly not the one who gonna finance this
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