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[Warrior]

I was curious to know how many of you will be making the switch to Goko after the beloved Isotropic goes down. I personally will probably not make the switch. I have played a few games on Goko and it just lacks the competetive and simple feel of Isotropic. Also Goko seems to lack experienced players and a good leaderboard system. Additionally, in the three games I played, I have already experienced disconnection and network issues. I won't be paying for the expansions as I already own them IRL and do not feel it is worth my money to purchase them again. Let me know whether or not you will be switching to Goko, or switching hobbies. Goodbye Isotropic, hello new hobby.

Warrior

[Kirian]

I've already made the switch.  After a year and a half of criticism on my part, they've made something that finally works, and has all the cards available.  Certainly there are still minor problems... but some minor problems also exist on Isotropic.  Goko has made major strides.

[rrenaud]

Holy shit.  Kirian isnt anti-Goko?

[Beyond Awesome]

I was curious to know how many of you will be making the switch to Goko after the beloved Isotropic goes down. I personally will probably not make the switch. I have played a few games on Goko and it just lacks the competetive and simple feel of Isotropic. Also Goko seems to lack experienced players and a good leaderboard system. Additionally, in the three games I played, I have already experienced disconnection and network issues. I won't be paying for the expansions as I already own them IRL and do not feel it is worth my money to purchase them again. Let me know whether or not you will be switching to Goko, or switching hobbies. Goodbye Isotropic, hello new hobby.

Warrior

If no one switches over from iso, then yes, it will remain anti-competitive. The more iso players on Goko, the more competitive it becomes. But, they do need a better match-making system, and I also think the way rankings works and the leaderboard needs a bit of tweaking.

[Kirian]

Holy shit.  Kirian isnt anti-Goko?

I was pretty explicit in this thread about what Goko would need to do to get my cash.  They've taken care of all of the Ugly and some of the Bad.

I wouldn't call myself an evangelist exactly--there's a lot left to criticize--but they've produced something that works well enough.

[popsofctown]

Does the f.ds-active cross-section bias for, or against Goko?  I am unsure.

[clb]

I will be making the switch, but probably not until 1) it leaves beta and 2) has Guilds (because I am cheap and am hoping I can save a few dollars - there is a good chance that I will forfeit #2).
I play Dominion online with my family, who are scattered across the nation. Whatever downsides Goko has, it will be the only way to play with my family.

[greatexpectations]

honestly, probably not. i'll probably get around to a longer comment in the "why aren't you on goko thread", but for now i think i can sum it up by borrowing from something Kirian said.

Certainly there are still minor problems... but some minor problems also exist on Isotropic.  Goko has made major strides.

this is what i see from just about everyone. "it's better." "it isn't as bad as it used to be." "they fixed X and Y." "isotropic didn't do this either." i don't think i remember a single forum member commenting that goko is actually good. goko simply does not seem to be a quality product for competitive dominion play.

[thirtyseven]

Yes, I will switch, because I like playing Dominion.

[GendoIkari]

There should be a "maybe" option. Maybe for me. The #1 reason that I prefer Isotropic to Goko is the quickness of playing a game. It simply takes too long to play a game on Goko, between loading the website, finding a game, loading the game, and the gameplay itself. On the fastest setting the gameplay is generally fast enough for me, but then you can't see what your opponent is doing. I'm sure the log parser extension is helpful here, but I'd rather not have to install an extension just to enjoy a game. And even then the speed is really slow for things like buying 10 Coppers with 10 Goons in play. (Unless they've fixed that since I last saw it).

All that said, Goko as a whole isn't a terrible implementation at all at this point. It's probably worth the $40 or whatever to enjoy unlimited online Dominion against people and bots. I just don't know if I'll end up spending enough time on there to make it worth it. My Isotropic play time is far less than it was a few months ago, before I hit level 40 and stopped playing for rank.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Why is the poll discrete? I want to see who's switching over! I'm a "probably". Probably won't play as much, but I'll probably want to enough to part with $40ish.

[werothegreat]

First, it's spelled "discreet."

Re: greatexpectations: Goko is constantly fixing things.  It may take them some time to fix them, but they are working on things.  The more I play, the less I find bugs or things that make me frustrated at Goko.  Really the one thing that makes me pissy right now is not being able to bump off someone who hasn't done anything for five minutes.  But as is, I'd say Goko is ready for launch.  It wasn't in August, but I'd say it is now.

[HiveMindEmulator]

First, it's spelled "discreet."

Unless my complaint is that it's not on visual analog scale...

[werothegreat]

First, it's spelled "discreet."

Unless my complaint is that it's not on visual analog scale...

Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine - too many closeted men on Craigslist looking for "discrete" hookups.  I don't think you can have a quantum of that sort of thing.

[aaron0013]

It's probably worth the $40 or whatever to enjoy unlimited online Dominion against people and bots.

For those of you who are curious, I just checked the Goko store, and it is currently $45 to buy every expansion in one package.

[Piemaster]

I think I'm going to take a break from online play completely.  I was starting to burn out a little anyway and iso going down seems like a good excuse to take a break and try some other games, keeping Dominion to something I will play live with my friends.  Somewhere down the road I might take another look at Goko and maybe invest some money in it, but we'll see how it goes.

[Kirian]

It's probably worth the $40 or whatever to enjoy unlimited online Dominion against people and bots.

For those of you who are curious, I just checked the Goko store, and it is currently $45 to buy every expansion in one package.

Yes, but it's $40 if you don't buy in one package.  The formula was posted somewhere... I think it's the three big expansions in Pack 1 for 210 each (rather than 230 to buy the pack), plus 140 for Pack 2, plus 110 for DA, was 460 = 2 x $20 bullshitcoin packs.

Certainly there are still minor problems... but some minor problems also exist on Isotropic.  Goko has made major strides.

this is what i see from just about everyone. "it's better." "it isn't as bad as it used to be." "they fixed X and Y." "isotropic didn't do this either." i don't think i remember a single forum member commenting that goko is actually good. goko simply does not seem to be a quality product for competitive dominion play.

[/quote]

Now this is an avenue I'd be interested in hearing more about, and hell, perhaps Goko would too.  Can we define "quality product for competitive Dominion play" in any readily-agreeable terms?

The main advantages of Iso at this time, in my opinion, are speed of play and matchmaking.  The latter didn't exist on Iso for its first year at least.  And if we didn't have Iso to compare with, no one would call Goko slow.

Out of interest, does anyone have thoughts on what other ways Iso is better?  I keep hearing complaints about the interface but my criterion is simply can it play the game, and does it follow the rules?  It meets that to 99%.

[hsiale]

Except matchmaking (and being free of course, but $40 for all cards is not a big deal) I currently see no other thing where Iso is better. I have switched to Goko completely. Currently playing mostly bots and I hope there will be matchmaking before I learn to play well enough that they are no longer interesting opponent for me.

[greatexpectations]

Now this is an avenue I'd be interested in hearing more about, and hell, perhaps Goko would too.  Can we define "quality product for competitive Dominion play" in any readily-agreeable terms?

i can think of a bunch pretty quick, and others can probably add to this.
- speed. isotropic appears to be faster in just about every aspect. matchmaking and game play stand out, but you could lump the animations and disconnect/login problems to this as well.
- cost structure. the cost for all expansions has been argued to death in other threads. personally, it sounds high for the quality of the product i am receiving, but i have some disposable income so that is not a huge issue. i think that a subscription service would be better suited for competitive play though, as it would allow anyone with an account to then have full unrestricted access to all cards.
- expansion ownership.  this builds directly off the last point. not everyone is going to have all of the expansions, so you are going to get a lopsided mix of games. we can of course start a side debate over whether fully randomized kingdoms are the way to play or not, but i think most would agree that competitive play limited to as few as 1-2 expansions isn't any better. nevermind the inherent advantages found when people can bias towards certain kingdoms, such as Obi Wan Bonogi and others biasing to Colony boards.
- interface. many have called for a more bare bones or text interface. something simpler, faster, and less distracting. it would be hard for me to picture gary kasparov honing his skills on battle chess for windows 3.0. you could arguably lump things like point/deck counters into this as well
- odds and ends. last i heard there was still no structure for determining 1P. last i heard goko planned to count disconnects differently when calculating levels. near impossibility of player organized tournaments with any consistency. colonies and shelters don't seem to be appearing appropriately, and i can only imagine what they are going to then cook up for black market.

The main advantages of Iso at this time, in my opinion, are speed of play and matchmaking.  The latter didn't exist on Iso for its first year at least.  And if we didn't have Iso to compare with, no one would call Goko slow.

of course, and the easy response to this is that iso was free so it is easier to put up with a lack of features. but it goes far beyond that. the existence of isotropic (and this community) was essentially a boatload of free market research, dos and don'ts, and design ideas. seriously. from isotropic and this community goko had free access to:
- a lowball estimate of their market size from forum member totals and isotropic users
- games played totals and lobby volumes for properly setting up their servers
- thoughts and opinions on pricing, both value and structure
- elements of isotropic that were liked and disliked, as well as oft-requested new features
- things the community desired enough to work and do on their own - point counter extensions, council room type data implementations, player pages, various achievements, modified logs, tournament structure and frequency, etc.

i am sure i could cook up a few more things but it's late so i will leave it at that. long story short, goko had free access to a host of information that loads of other startup companies would probably have to spend quite a bit of time and money on. they really had a chance to absolutely blow us away. instead, they have been working for 7 months past when they thought it was good enough for release and what they have to show for it is a product that many feel is still inferior to isotropic. and i'd bet all my upvotes that if isotropic had dark ages and the option of card art that this imbalance wouldn't even be close.

so what i'm getting at with all of this is that i find all of these arguments comparing goko to isotropic to be nonsensical. they had the benefit of a full staff and the option to learn from the existing product and to date they have failed to take advantage of it.

Out of interest, does anyone have thoughts on what other ways Iso is better? 

price, speed, and matchmaking are the obvious ones, just as card art and Dark Ages are the easy ways Goko has the edge. i would also toss out: chat format, ease of alternate accounts, blinking tabs/audio cues for turn and interaction cues, built in point counter, veto mode option, lobby formatting, better response to disconnects, better response to timeouts, and text mode option.

[DStu]

of course, and the easy response to this is that iso was free so it is easier to put up with a lack of features. but it goes far beyond that. the existence of isotropic (and this community) was essentially a boatload of free market research, dos and don'ts, and design ideas. seriously. from isotropic and this community goko had free access to:
- a lowball estimate of their market size from forum member totals and isotropic users
- games played totals and lobby volumes for properly setting up their servers
- thoughts and opinions on pricing, both value and structure
- elements of isotropic that were liked and disliked, as well as oft-requested new features
- things the community desired enough to work and do on their own - point counter extensions, council room type data implementations, player pages, various achievements, modified logs, tournament structure and frequency, etc.

And on top of that, they would have had a community to outsource work to.  I don't mean any of us writing the whole stuff, because after all, some security related things you better do yourself,  you don't want to have something like a JS-injection in the chat, but
- Publish an (expected) format for the game logs and you would have full iso-Councilroom functionality by now for goko and more.
- Give an API for the ingame logs and the logprettier and and point counter could have been a (semi)official addon, that you might even include for small money, just like Blizzard for WoW has tons of work outsources to the Addon community, both making their game better and getting inspiration, if not code (don't know that) for their own product.
- Give an API for the bots and you would have the same for the AI.

Instead, you don't even get an answer when you ask what their goals for their bots are to decide if bots buying Curses is a bug or a feature.  Instead, the logs are still unformated text which you can only get uncompressed and untared by scraping their website.  Instead, people have to go deep into their Javascript to get the ingame logs and append them to their page, not knowing if Goko will change something and the whole thing does not work anymore...

[Morgrim7]

Yes, but not until March 15th.

[Awaclus]

As long as it is worse than Iso, no.

[Avalanchian]

Yes, but not until March 15th.

Beware the Ides of March...

[Hunting Party of One]

I have made the switch and loving it.  Like others have said, it's still got some tweaks that would make it even better (match-making, leader board, etc.), but the product as it is today is great.  I love it.  I've found several very competitive players, and i'm sure more will come when iso goes down.

[rrenaud]

The game logs are published.  They have been for awhile.  The log format is simple.  I think it would be easier to make a councilroom for goko than a councilroom for iso because of the simplicity in the log format.

[olneyce]

The interface.

I just...can't.  I realize that this is an area where plenty of people seem to prefer it over the minimalism of Iso.  But there's just no chance I will enjoy spending a significant amount of my time looking at that.

I'll probably check back here occasionally, and will try to play IRL when I have the chance.  But I think my serious Dominion days will be ending next week. 

It's been fun.

[AdamH]

I will be switching to Goko when iso goes down and not a minute earlier. I am doing this because I'm an addict and bad crack is better than no crack at all.

DISCLAIMER: I have never used, nor do I ever plan to use any recreational drugs.

And I will die a little inside. It disgusts me that I will be paying my money for a product that I could probably do a better job of developing myself and have no control over whether or not it gets better.

...but that's how much I like Dominion. Now where's my razor blade?

[DStu]

The game logs are published.  They have been for awhile.  The log format is simple.  I think it would be easier to make a councilroom for goko than a councilroom for iso because of the simplicity in the log format.

Yes, but my problem is that there is no real motivation and no real communication from their part. Is this their final log format?  And you don't get them zipped, the last time I wanted some the best I found was got curl | grep | sed | xargs wget them one by one, which is much larger than needed and also gives quite low bandwidth because you download 10k small files. Per Day. And it's probably also not very good for their server.

Anyway, this is not a show-stopper, but it's also not really harvesting the power of the community as it could have been with: "Hey, we see you have this fantastic project over there, this is the format our logs will keep; so feel free to also include goko, if you have feedback contact us."
Or maybe you have gotten such a mail and they only didn't post public, but I doubt it.

[GendoIkari]

As long as it is worse than Iso, no.

After March 15th, I guarantee that it will not be worse than Iso. Assuming that by "worse" you mean a worse place to go and play Dominion online.

[Awaclus]

After March 15th, I guarantee that it will not be worse than Iso. Assuming that by "worse" you mean a worse place to go and play Dominion online.

By "worse", I mean a worse online Dominion implementation.

[OgreMkV]

I won't be switching.  I played a few games last night on it and hated it.  It was slow and clunky.  I've always been more of a minimalist when it comes to interfaces and things like that.  The interface is so busy.  It really bothers me.

If someone had said, "$3 a month for unlimited isotropic and we'll add dark ages", then awesome.  I would have signed on in a second.  But, I think that this is as good a time as any to find something else to do.

And it's a shame too, I finally got the hang of Dominion and went from level 6 to 14 in about a week.

[rrenaud]

OTOH, no zip file, but an index file with links to logs means a cr for goko could up date immediately, rather than having a day latency.

Goko has been more than reasonable with the logs, IMO.

[TheSadPanda]

No, well 90% No...I tired it, I cant get in to it...its too slow/the matchmaking portion is a major issue for me, the UI is a major issue for me, the placement of the chat box over your "clicking area" during play is a major issue for me...speed of play is an issue for me...

That all being said (and I will make a post on the 14th about this) I may come over some day...I truly love the game, love playing it in RL but even more so, love playing it w you guys on ISO...

...anyways...

I will miss ISO, and would have paid quite a bit more $, then what Goko is charging to keep it here...

TSP

[DStu]

OTOH, no zip file, but an index file with links to logs means a cr for goko could up date immediately, rather than having a day latency.

Goko has been more than reasonable with the logs, IMO.

I agree that the logs is one of the thing that is on the better side, just saying "exploiting" the community could have been better.

Also the index file is quite large, I think you would scale down from "immediately" to "every 10 minutes" or so, but that's a minor problem...

[Cuzz]

- interface. many have called for a more bare bones or text interface. something simpler, faster, and less distracting. it would be hard for me to picture gary kasparov honing his skills on battle chess for windows 3.0. you could arguably lump things like point/deck counters into this as well

Ohmygod I completely forgot how much I missed battle chess.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I will probably play on Goko some once isotropic goes down, but I won't pay them any money until the ridiculous log/chat design is fixed and a better lobby/matchmaking system is implemented. And yes, I know about the log extension. But if the users have to fix your product to make it playable, then your product isn't worth my money.

edit: This should go without saying, but there should be an option to completely disable animations. Very fast animations are fast enough for play, but they are visually distracting and ugly. Actually the whole thing is ugly, and people touting "prettiness" as a Goko advantage are not welcome to decorate my home.

[ddubois]

I've sufficiently burnt myself out on Dominion that the lack of isotropic Dominion probably represents an improvement to my life.  I only play it joylessly out of habit, with the outcome being either I'm apathetic when I win or get out-played (not often, but it happens), and enraged and stressed when I get outdrawn. 

I'm try-harding on RFTG on boardgamearena now.  I can't stay over 1700 and it's driving me nuts.

[GendoIkari]

After March 15th, I guarantee that it will not be worse than Iso. Assuming that by "worse" you mean a worse place to go and play Dominion online.

By "worse", I mean a worse online Dominion implementation.

Then yes, after March 15th Isotropic will be a far worse online Dominion implementation. It will be absolutely terrible.

[Awaclus]

Then yes, after March 15th Isotropic will be a far worse online Dominion implementation. It will be absolutely terrible.

No, it will still continue to be pretty good. Just like the improvised solo that was not recorded that I heard a pianist play a while ago.

[Warrior]

Why is the poll discrete? I want to see who's switching over! I'm a "probably". Probably won't play as much, but I'll probably want to enough to part with $40ish.

I was making this post in a rush so I wasn't paying nuch attention to poll settings. I will switch the poll.

[Warrior]

Why is the poll discrete? I want to see who's switching over! I'm a "probably". Probably won't play as much, but I'll probably want to enough to part with $40ish.

sorry it won't let me switch the settings of poll visibility.

[werothegreat]

I think I've said this before, but:

Goko is most likely aiming for a more casual userbase, ostensibly because there are a lot more casual players than tournament players.  Casual players don't care if there's a log showing on the screen.  Casual players don't need everything to happen instantaneously to get 5 minute games.  Casual players want a nice-looking interface over a minimalist one.  Casual players aren't going to want to play one-player games.  So yes, iso can be considered market research, but not for the market Goko is aiming to sell to.

Also, one thing Goko does better - I only found out today that I could look at the trash in iso by clicking the "info" button.  I had never before known I could do that.

[Rabid]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/faq/

How do I see ... during the game?
    Normally you're shown just your hand and the size of your draw and discard piles. Clicking the info button near your hand will bring up a window with everything (I believe) the rules entitle you to see:

        the contents of the trash
        number of cards held by other players
        contents of various mats (Pirate Ship, Island, etc.) of all the players
        contents of the players' play areas
        cards available in the Black Market deck
        etc.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I think I've said this before, but:

Goko is most likely aiming for a more casual userbase, ostensibly because there are a lot more casual players than tournament players.  Casual players don't care if there's a log showing on the screen.  Casual players don't need everything to happen instantaneously to get 5 minute games.  Casual players want a nice-looking interface over a minimalist one.  Casual players aren't going to want to play one-player games.  So yes, iso can be considered market research, but not for the market Goko is aiming to sell to.

I think this is a load of nonsense, both in terms of how you describe Goko's target audience and whether their implementation of online Dominion actually provides a good experience for that kind of player. This will probably be a lotlonger than it needs to be. Also, ten people probably already said it somewhere else, more concisely.

What is a casual player?
Some of your characteristics:
1. Prefers "Nice looking interface over minimalist one"
2. Doesn't want fast games
3. Doesn't want one player games

I don't know how you're so confident you've pinned down the aesthetic preference of the general population. I'm not convinced based on the reactions I've seen that Goko style visuals are preferred by more people (though I'll admit we've got a strong iso bias here). Official card art is nice, but official card art inside the Goko interface is like putting {nice thing} into {crappy thing}. I'm bad at analogies.

I think you're dead wrong about number two. Beginners might not initially want fast games, but the casual player definitely does. They're casual, the shorter the time investment between loading the application and getting the joyful experience the better. In the course iPhone Apps 101, there is probably an entire unit devoted to shortening the user experience into smaller chunks. It would be a big mistake to conflate beginners with casual players, but of course the ideal system is friendly to both.

I think number 3 is wrong because one player games are fast and low pressure while still maintaining the core experience. Casual players will eat this up.

The Goko interface is not friendly to casual players. The lack of a side by side text log means that more focus is required playing on Goko than on isotropic. This, I think you will agree, is not casual friendly. A "tournament" player will have a much easier time (relative to a casual) at understanding what is happening in a game based solely on animations. Because an experienced player basically knows what his opponent is likely to do based on the actions they played/direction of their deck. Of course a tournament player won't prefer the animations over a log, because one systems work a lot better. But I think the casual player will prefer a log as well. The wonky chat interface isn't friendly to anyone. This has been discussed a lot, but the pricing structure is clearly not in the range of other casual offerings.

Things I think a casual player might prefer:
1. Short time commitment
2. Simple (functional) system to interact with.
3. Cheap.

Last pointless paragraph: isotropic users are mostly "casual" and clearly a part of Goko's target audience. When I play on isotropic, I slouch down way low in my chair, I squint at the monitor and I pray to God that the Mint I just tried to buy wasn't a Mine. Sometimes I don't type gg because my hand is too far away from the keyboard and I don't want to move it. I don't hydrate properly, warm-up, stretch, and then get my game face on. When I'm bored I get on iso and I play a few games of Dominion. If the game is real exciting, I might sit up and count how many Provinces my opponent has to see if I can end the game with a win, sometimes I just cross my fingers and buy the card. It's pretty darn casual. I bet a lot of people play the same way. I happen to be bored a lot, so I play too much, and that leads to the thousands of games (also they are fast ya know). In general, playing at a high skill level (at least in Dominion) doesn't preclude playing casually. There's this whole community perception that we are Elite Dominion Players because, look at us, we're spending all this time playing Dominion and writing/reading stuff on Dominion Strategy forums, but I don't really buy it. There's a whole lot of talk, but I think it's mostly for fun and doesn't amount to a lot of real skill development. (This paragraph seems less and less relevant as I write it). Back on track, we are people with money who like to play Dominion online, HOW COULD WE POSSIBLY NOT BE A PART OF GOKO'S TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC? I'm not saying we're the whole pie, but we're in the crust somewhere. Clearly our expectations/experience have some relevance to the proper design of an online implementation.

[werothegreat]

Am I the only who doesn't give a crap about the log?  The only thing I ever use the log for is to check what turn it is, and that only because people get pissy in comments on my YouTube videos that I take too many turns.  This would be remedied by a little turn counter in some corner.  Having it on normal or fast is fast enough for me to see what's going on, and Goko is at a point where the speed of the game is almost completely dictated by the speed of the player.  And - if you switch over to another tab, your interface essentially pauses, and all the things you would have missed are quickly played out.  And casual players aren't going to care about a log.

As for your points off of mine:

1) Maybe this is just me, then.  I prefer the look of Goko.  There.  I said it.  Sue me.

2) Let me rephrase.  Yes, everyone wants things to go at a nice pace and not be slow, laggy or boring.  But casual players don't necessarily need the instantaneousness of iso.  For example, if you're playing Civilization, you don't mind that a little animation plays as something happens.  You don't need everything to happen instantly.  To me, looking nicer > being instantaneous.

3) One player games are mainly for testing out new strategies.  Dominion is sometimes pejoratively called "multiplayer solitaire," but it's not actually solitaire.  You're still competing for Provinces, and that's the whole point of the game - to get more points than someone else.  If there's no "someone else," there's no point.  You can't "win" if you're not playing against someone.  So, no, I cannot see casual players dying to play a solitaire version.  They might try it if it's available, but I don't think they'd be clamoring for it.

As to what you think they might prefer:

1) 20 minutes tops.  That's long to you?
2) It is functional.
3) You can play it FOR FREE.

[dondon151]

3) One player games are mainly for testing out new strategies.  Dominion is sometimes pejoratively called "multiplayer solitaire," but it's not actually solitaire.  You're still competing for Provinces, and that's the whole point of the game - to get more points than someone else.  If there's no "someone else," there's no point.

The experience that I gained playing solitaire far outweighs the experience that I've gained playing ~500 2-player games. Solitaire Dominion is an invaluable tool for any player seeking to quickly improve at the game.

3) You can play it FOR FREE.

Can you please stop saying this? Playing Goko for free is like eating only the crust of a cheesecake. I want to play Dominion in its entirety, not only the base set. If my only option to play Dominion for free was to either be restricted to a watered down version of the game or to hunt for open games with multiple expansions, that is not "free." That is Goko dangling a carrot in front of my face and begging me to pay them.

[LastFootnote]

The experience that I gained playing solitaire far outweighs the experience that I've gained playing ~500 2-player games. Solitaire Dominion is an invaluable tool for any player seeking to quickly improve at the game.

Bullshit. I'll grant you that it's useful, but only for cards that aren't interactive and even then only up to a point. You're far overstating it to try to make a point.

[dondon151]

The World Masters tournament was, what, August 18, 2012? Councilroom.com says that dondon151 has somewhere around <5 games on Iso before September 1, 2012 and the earliest scraped log was on September 13.

I had around 220 games logged on Iso when the f.DS tournament started. Since then I've added around 250 games to my alt account, cbaka. I'll let the data speak for itself...

[Powerman]

Well, I tried to play on Goko over the past 2 days.  I have to say I don't mind the in game as much as I thought I would.  However, there are some problems I encountered:

1)  Finding games with people is near impossible.
1A)  Finding games with people that know how to play dominion is even more impossible.
1B)  Finding games with people that know how to play dominion and have more than base dominion is impossible.
2)  The chat function is horrid.  At least in Iso, you can easily say "Good luck, have fun" or more if you want.
3)  Not telling what turn you are on without opening up the whole log is annoying.
4)  Having so many lobbies is weird, and filling up at 50 makes it even harder to find games.
5)  Not having some indication in the tab that it is my turn is very annoying, especially when I was playing slow players.
6)  Adventure mode is still really wonky.  Like... I get all 8 provinces and that's still a 1 star?
6A)  Who thought it was a good idea to alter the starting deck states?  Like... why bother with that at all?
6B)  Why does Adventure mode crash my computer every other time I try it?  Like... I have no problem with the other modes, but that just kills my computer.
7)  Why are there so many 3 / 4 player games and so few 2 player games?  I realize dominion is "recommended" for 3 / 4 players, but bleh.  Why not split up the lobbies based on the number of players that you want to have in your game?
8 )  For the play now thing, why can't you choose how many players you want in your "play now" game?  I don't want to play 3 / 4 player games against 2 / 3 people that are slow and inexperienced.
9)  Is there a way to tell in the ranked matches if your opponent owns expansions?  Or is it automatically just up in the air whether it will be base or something else?
10)  Is there an easy way to tell how good someone is on Goko?  Because, the ranking system seems really wonky and easily skewed.  Like, I played 10 games and didn't lose any and moved up from like 5000 to 50.  Is there any reliability in the levels, or is it just pure luck whether you'll play someone who knows NV / Bridge vs. buy estates on every $2!
11)  Are the bots as easy to beat as they seem?  Or is that just the first impression?

[DStu]

3) You can play it FOR FREE.

People playing it for free are clearly not the one who gonna finance this

[popsofctown]

The experience that I gained playing solitaire far outweighs the experience that I've gained playing ~500 2-player games. Solitaire Dominion is an invaluable tool for any player seeking to quickly improve at the game.

Bullshit. I'll grant you that it's useful, but only for cards that aren't interactive and even then only up to a point. You're far overstating it to try to make a point.

Eh.  The major difference between the most elite players and the rest of us is generally engine tuning.  That ca be done in solitaire.  Interactions like Jack beats Hag and clever Masquerade passes matter, but usually aren't what separates the wheat from the chaff.

[LastFootnote]

The experience that I gained playing solitaire far outweighs the experience that I've gained playing ~500 2-player games. Solitaire Dominion is an invaluable tool for any player seeking to quickly improve at the game.

Bullshit. I'll grant you that it's useful, but only for cards that aren't interactive and even then only up to a point. You're far overstating it to try to make a point.

Eh.  The major difference between the most elite players and the rest of us is generally engine tuning.  That ca be done in solitaire.  Interactions like Jack beats Hag and clever Masquerade passes matter, but usually aren't what separates the wheat from the chaff.

It's not just that. It's pacing. It's Duchy dancing. Imagine for a moment a player that has played 1000 solitaire games, but has never played a real game. He might be the best engine builder out there, but has no idea when or exactly how to green. You would beat ghat player hands-down. Pacing is everything in Dominion. Solitaire games can be a useful tool, but to say they're more useful than real games is utter crap.

[Watno]

They're not as fun either.

[dondon151]

It's not just that. It's pacing. It's Duchy dancing. Imagine for a moment a player that has played 1000 solitaire games, but has never played a real game. He might be the best engine builder out there, but has no idea when or exactly how to green. You would beat ghat player hands-down. Pacing is everything in Dominion. Solitaire games can be a useful tool, but to say they're more useful than real games is utter crap.

I've presented my case, dude. The only non-solitaire experience that I had prior to the 2012 World Masters tournament was 3-player IRL games against friends. I'd say that at that point I was around a level 35 player, and most recently I've peaked at level 42-43 (though I suspect I could go higher if I played more often). The weakest aspect of my play at that point in time was against attacks (particularly Curses), and improvement in that aspect of play has accounted for the increase in level. There is no doubt that I am a much stronger player now that I have 500 2-player games under my belt, but in August 2012 I was also much stronger than many other players who have thousands of games played on Iso.

Solitaire lets the player study in a focus, directed manner how the cards interact. You don't pick up on the subtlety of tactical decisions without some experience, but it's far easier to approach a tactical conclusion via reasoning than it is to develop a strategy. When do I start buying Duchies? When there are 4-5 Provinces remaining in a BM board and the opponent is more or less mirroring. When do I stop building the engine and start greening? When I hit $16 with at least 2 buys, or when I hit $13 with at least 2 buys, or when I can sustain $8 for many consecutive turns (though this sort of decision-making is easy to tease from solitaire play). It's no surprise that a lot of these tactical decisions have been optimized through the use of simulation, and that's where I learned about them in the first place.

Finally, I disagree with your implication that a player can't learn pacing from solitaire games. The whole point of playing solitaire is to reach a certain goal faster than someone else did. In Dominion, there is no advantage to being slower instead of faster.

[Watno]

Btw, solitaire games are possible at Goko in the secret chamber room

[michaeljb]

Btw, solitaire games are possible at Goko in the secret chamber room

inb4 complaints about it being non-obvious

[popsofctown]

It's not just that. It's pacing. It's Duchy dancing. Imagine for a moment a player that has played 1000 solitaire games, but has never played a real game. He might be the best engine builder out there, but has no idea when or exactly how to green. You would beat ghat player hands-down. Pacing is everything in Dominion. Solitaire games can be a useful tool, but to say they're more useful than real games is utter crap.

I've presented my case, dude. The only non-solitaire experience that I had prior to the 2012 World Masters tournament was 3-player IRL games against friends. I'd say that at that point I was around a level 35 player, and most recently I've peaked at level 42-43 (though I suspect I could go higher if I played more often). The weakest aspect of my play at that point in time was against attacks (particularly Curses), and improvement in that aspect of play has accounted for the increase in level. There is no doubt that I am a much stronger player now that I have 500 2-player games under my belt, but in August 2012 I was also much stronger than many other players who have thousands of games played on Iso.

Solitaire lets the player study in a focus, directed manner how the cards interact. You don't pick up on the subtlety of tactical decisions without some experience, but it's far easier to approach a tactical conclusion via reasoning than it is to develop a strategy. When do I start buying Duchies? When there are 4-5 Provinces remaining in a BM board and the opponent is more or less mirroring. When do I stop building the engine and start greening? When I hit $16 with at least 2 buys, or when I hit $13 with at least 2 buys, or when I can sustain $8 for many consecutive turns (though this sort of decision-making is easy to tease from solitaire play). It's no surprise that a lot of these tactical decisions have been optimized through the use of simulation, and that's where I learned about them in the first place.

Finally, I disagree with your implication that a player can't learn pacing from solitaire games. The whole point of playing solitaire is to reach a certain goal faster than someone else did. In Dominion, there is no advantage to being slower instead of faster.

It's kinda hard to argue with results. 

[reinoe]

So for three days in a row I've been trying goko and the games just keep freezing.  I feel bad for the Dominion player base.  I don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

[ftl]

don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

Other way around. Goko paid rgg for the right to make a non-free online dominion and shut down all the free ones.

[reinoe]

don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

Other way around. Goko paid rgg for the right to make a non-free online dominion and shut down all the free ones.

Thanks for the clarification.

[cactus]

So for three days in a row I've been trying goko and the games just keep freezing.  I feel bad for the Dominion player base.  I don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

Using which browser? I had heaps of problems when using Safari. Now I'm using Chrome and clearing my browser history periodically and - basically having nil problems with freezing or lag (will maybe a tiny bit of lag, but not so much as to be a real problem, and zero freezing).

[ashersky]

So for three days in a row I've been trying goko and the games just keep freezing.  I feel bad for the Dominion player base.  I don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

Using which browser? I had heaps of problems when using Safari. Now I'm using Chrome and clearing my browser history periodically and - basically having nil problems with freezing or lag (will maybe a tiny bit of lag, but not so much as to be a real problem, and zero freezing).

Is there an expectation that it will eventually work in Safari/IE/Firefox?  And without history clearing?  Or would that be too much to expect?

[Kirian]

So for three days in a row I've been trying goko and the games just keep freezing.  I feel bad for the Dominion player base.  I don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

Using which browser? I had heaps of problems when using Safari. Now I'm using Chrome and clearing my browser history periodically and - basically having nil problems with freezing or lag (will maybe a tiny bit of lag, but not so much as to be a real problem, and zero freezing).

Is there an expectation that it will eventually work in Safari/IE/Firefox?  And without history clearing?  Or would that be too much to expect?

I have no trouble in FF any longer.  I would not expect any website to work in IE, ever, so I don't fault Goko for that.  Safari they really ought to work on, though.

[Watno]

I don't have problems with FF either. The Safari bug jqs described on getsatisfaction (it seems to refresh all tabs occasionally) seems hard to work around though.

[Tdog]

Now there was 350 ish people playing or in the isotropc lobby, and 260 in the Goko lobby or playing. While Goko isn't at the level of iso, it's not doing bad and will most likely grow when iso goes down.

[ashersky]

Now there was 350 ish people playing or in the isotropc lobby, and 260 in the Goko lobby or playing. While Goko isn't at the level of iso, it's not doing bad and will most likely grow when iso goes down.

260 all in one room in Goko, like in Iso?

[aaron0013]

So for three days in a row I've been trying goko and the games just keep freezing.  I feel bad for the Dominion player base.  I don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

Using which browser? I had heaps of problems when using Safari. Now I'm using Chrome and clearing my browser history periodically and - basically having nil problems with freezing or lag (will maybe a tiny bit of lag, but not so much as to be a real problem, and zero freezing).

No way! Did cactus just say something semi-positive about Goko?

[LastFootnote]

So for three days in a row I've been trying goko and the games just keep freezing.  I feel bad for the Dominion player base.  I don't know how much RGG paid GOKO to design their system but it's too much.

Using which browser? I had heaps of problems when using Safari. Now I'm using Chrome and clearing my browser history periodically and - basically having nil problems with freezing or lag (will maybe a tiny bit of lag, but not so much as to be a real problem, and zero freezing).

No way! Did cactus just say something semi-positive about Goko?

Ahem. *points*

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7313.0

[aaron0013]

Wow I didn't realize that Goko had improved that much. Cool to see a former critic promoting them now.

[ashersky]

Wow I didn't realize that Goko had improved that much. Cool to see a former critic promoting them now.

Have we seen examples of the opposite?  That is, a former Goko fan that is now a critic?

[LastFootnote]

Wow I didn't realize that Goko had improved that much. Cool to see a former critic promoting them now.

Have we seen examples of the opposite?  That is, a former Goko fan that is now a critic?

I think there are a lot of people who are both fans and critics of Goko, myself included.

[Kirian]

Wow I didn't realize that Goko had improved that much. Cool to see a former critic promoting them now.

Have we seen examples of the opposite?  That is, a former Goko fan that is now a critic?

I think there are a lot of people who are both fans and critics of Goko, myself included.

I would place myself in the "critical but tolerant" category now.  "Fan" is a bit of a stretch for me right now.  I'm a fan of Dominion; Goko is a reasonable adaptation of Dominion to the web, where nine months ago it was shit.

So call me formerly an exceedingly critical non-customer, now a semi-critical customer.

[Beyond Awesome]

Wow I didn't realize that Goko had improved that much. Cool to see a former critic promoting them now.

Have we seen examples of the opposite?  That is, a former Goko fan that is now a critic?

As a paying customer who has played their exclusively since September, I actually consider myself a critic. There are many, many things I still want to see improved such as:

In no particular order
1) Shelters in Pro Games
2) Ability to reconnect even after refreshing one's browser
3) All disconnects count as a loss
4) Point Counter
5) Ability to choose what sets get chosen for non-pro games
6) All promo cards implemented
7) Ability to actually get all promo cards
Base Cards art implemented
9) Matchmaking
10) No limits on people in lobbies
11) Young Witch and Ruins all on the first page
12) No lag. Period (It seems to be lagging a bit today).
13) All rules implemented correctly such as being able to choose which order to resolve cards at end of turn.
14) Make it easier to see cards when playing Scheme and you have a shit ton of actions out
15) No freezes!
16) Quicker response time to super easy fixes like Shelters in Pro Games
17) An honest pricing scheme like it was before Alchemy was released.
18) Ability to chose identical hands for pro games
19) A better rating system, ideally one that only counts wins and losses at the end of the day and also one that slowly reduces one rating for not playing over a period of time. Also, one that doesn't make you lose points against 0 rank opponents for winning, but maybe you don't gain points as well.
20) Having the loser go first for the second game (I am not sure if Goko does this, but I suspect it is always random who goes first. I might be wrong.)

Well, that is what comes to me off the top of my head. But, as you can see, despite having played over 1000 games on Goko, there are still many changes I hope to see. Some are small nitpicks and some are pretty big.

[Kirian]

Wow I didn't realize that Goko had improved that much. Cool to see a former critic promoting them now.

Have we seen examples of the opposite?  That is, a former Goko fan that is now a critic?

As a paying customer who has played their exclusively since September, I actually consider myself a critic. There are many, many things I still want to see improved such as:

In no particular order
1) Shelters in Pro Games
2) Ability to reconnect even after refreshing one's browser
3) All disconnects count as a loss
4) Point Counter
5) Ability to choose what sets get chosen for non-pro games
6) All promo cards implemented
7) Ability to actually get all promo cards
Base Cards art implemented
9) Matchmaking
10) No limits on people in lobbies
11) Young Witch and Ruins all on the first page
12) No lag. Period (It seems to be lagging a bit today).
13) All rules implemented correctly such as being able to choose which order to resolve cards at end of turn.
14) Make it easier to see cards when playing Scheme and you have a shit ton of actions out
15) No freezes!
16) Quicker response time to super easy fixes like Shelters in Pro Games
17) An honest pricing scheme like it was before Alchemy was released.
18) Ability to chose identical hands for pro games
19) A better rating system, ideally one that only counts wins and losses at the end of the day and also one that slowly reduces one rating for not playing over a period of time. Also, one that doesn't make you lose points against 0 rank opponents for winning, but maybe you don't gain points as well.
20) Having the loser go first for the second game (I am not sure if Goko does this, but I suspect it is always random who goes first. I might be wrong.)

Well, that is what comes to me off the top of my head. But, as you can see, despite having played over 1000 games on Goko, there are still many changes I hope to see. Some are small nitpicks and some are pretty big.

Other than 4 and 8, I love this list.

[Warrior]

Is Isotropic down in a few hours? Or in a a day and a few hours? Thanks.

Warrior

[Kirian]

Is Isotropic down in a few hours? Or in a a day and a few hours? Thanks.

Warrior

At the earliest a day and a few hours, as it's not yet the 14th in California...

[werothegreat]

I'd like to piggyback off of Beyond Awesome and add:

When playing Graverobber/Rogue, bunch the trash into piles, like it normally is when you click on it, so I can see what the fuck I'm gaining.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'd like to piggyback off of Beyond Awesome and add:

When playing Graverobber/Rogue, bunch the trash into piles, like it normally is when you click on it, so I can see what the fuck I'm gaining.

That too.

[Polk5440]

For fun, I'll apply my own weak preference ordering to BA's list with a couple added points.

More Important:

• (Correct frequency of) Shelters in Pro Games
• No lag. (This is important, but I have not had any problems lately.)
• No freezes! (This has gotten better. My freeze/disconnect rate is about on par with what I got with Iso; so all that's missing for me is the ability to jump back into games upon reconnect.)
• Ability to reconnect even after refreshing one's browser

Matchmaking/ranking. These items all go together.

• All disconnects count as a loss. If this is added, then the ability to boot people for stalling must also be added.
• Matchmaking based on ranking
• A rating system that slowly reduces one rating for not playing over a period of time.

And these points are only important to people who care about the leaderboard or being matched with people of similar skill for "better" games. Otherwise, attempting to cheat-proof the leaderboard is not a big deal.

Less Important:

• Ability to actually get buy all promo cards
• No limits on people in lobbies
• All rules implemented correctly such as being able to choose which order to resolve cards at end of turn. (Depends which rules!)
• Make it easier to see cards when playing Scheme; bunch trash into piles. I will add better play area organization for things like current/past durations and TR/KC.
• Quicker response time to super easy fixes like Shelters in Pro Games.

Not Important, but would be nice to have:

• All promo cards implemented
• Base Cards art implemented (as an optional purchase)
• Having the loser go first for the second game. And I would add, committing to a series of games with a person without having to set up a new table every time.
• Improvements to Deck Builder, such as randomizing within expansion.

Not a Problem at all:

• Point Counter. At best, would be a nice additional feature, but it's existence is only relevant for the most serious tournament games or leaderboard climbers, which does not apply to the vast majority of players.
• Young Witch and Ruins all on the first page. Sometimes there are so many cards; prizes, madman, spoils, Potion, colonies, etc. A design decision decision has to be made, and I don't think the decision they made is bad.
• All rules implemented correctly such as being able to choose which order to resolve cards at end of turn. Depends which rules. Moat is great as implemented.
• An honest pricing scheme like it was before Alchemy was released.
• Ability to chose identical hands for pro games
• A rating system that only counts wins and losses at the end of the day.
• A rating system that doesn't make you lose points against 0 rank opponents for winning, but maybe you don't gain points as well. This contradicts reducing one's rating for not playing if what you care about is gaming the system to increase/preserve rank. Not playing and playing sufficiently weak opponents too often are the same thing, and a rating system fighting rank preservation should penalize both by reducing your rating. I guess this effect would be hidden if you only calculate rating at the end of the day, so there's an argument in favor of that point, I guess.

[philosophyguy]

I like BA's list. A few more:

* Add an audio alert when you need to do something during your opponent's turn.
* Change the browser tab when action is required on your part, like iso. This makes it possible to play in the background, and while it will never be as good as Iso because the interface is less minimalist, it will help a lot.

Re: Polk5440: I disagree that the Ruins/YW pile issues are not important. The piles that can potentially cause the game to end should all be visible at once. I have no problem with Madmen/Prizes/Spoils being on a second page, but piling out (or missing that the game could end on piles) is something that shouldn't be obscured by flipping between pages.

[jsh357]

Another problem I have:
Mystic's "name a card" interface is plain dreadful.  It doesn't come up unless you need Shelters or Ruins, but sometimes I just won't even bother.  More people would complain if Shelters appeared in Pro games, I guarantee it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Another problem I have:
Mystic's "name a card" interface is plain dreadful.  It doesn't come up unless you need Shelters or Ruins, but sometimes I just won't even bother.  More people would complain if Shelters appeared in Pro games, I guarantee it.

People would complain about Shelters showing up, but they wouldn't complain at Goko for that. Getting used to Ambassador not being relevant in many games would be a shock to many people's system. Ditto for Baron.

[ftl]

No, the interface for picking cards is really bad with shelters and ruins.

If the card is in the supply (or is one of the available non-supply piles, madman/mercenary/spoils), you can just click on the pile. But if you want to name another card, you click on "name another card" which gives you a list of ALL OTHER DOMINION CARDS, sorted alphabetically. So if you want to wish for Hovel, you'll find it in the long list of cards, between Horse Traders and Hunting Party.

It's adequate, since it's not THAT frequent of an occurance to need to wish for a non-supply card (and since it'll work fine, rules-wise, when Black Market is available!) but it's still annoying. People would complain at Goko for that.

As it is, it fell completely off my radar because it's been so long since I had a game with both a wishing card (Wishing Well, Mystic, are those it?) and either shelters or ruins and careful-enough deck tracking that I'd want to wish for a one of those.

It's a more minor issue though, IMO, because usually you don't want to wish for a rare card like that, and so I think lots of other fixes should take priority. Rules-wise, it's perfectly fine as it is, and gameplay-wise, it's a rare situation.

[Beyond Awesome]

I do remember that. I remember a couple times not wishing for the shelter even though I knew the shelter would come up because I was just too lazy to click that box.

[Polk5440]

Re: Polk5440: I disagree that the Ruins/YW pile issues are not important. The piles that can potentially cause the game to end should all be visible at once.

That is a good point.

[LastFootnote]

I do remember that. I remember a couple times not wishing for the shelter even though I knew the shelter would come up because I was just too lazy to click that box.

Same here, except instead of being lazy, I was worried it would crash the browser by loading all the card images. That used to happen and I have no idea if they fixed it.