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[SirPeebles]

Has there been any simulation work on which card makes the best "Gardens-X" rush?  My suspicion is that Beggar is currently the best, followed by Ironworks and Workshop.  IGG is way up there too, if you count that.  Armory is probably decent, and maybe even Woodcutter.

Basically, in the spirit of Big Money-X, I'd be interested in comparisons of narrow-minded "Gardens-X" rush bots.

[dondon151]

Workshop has been shown to not be a very good Gardens rush enabler.

[DStu]

Has there been any simulation work on which card makes the best "Gardens-X" rush?  My suspicion is that Beggar is currently the best, followed by Ironworks and Workshop.  IGG is way up there too, if you count that.  Armory is probably decent, and maybe even Woodcutter.

Beggar is no rush, it's a slog.  You don't have buys or gains (beside Copper), you need 26 turns to finish this.  It wins against the rushes because it can start to gain Gardens faster, and also can attack Duchies when they are gone.  But it's not "better" than say Ironworks as a rush, the IW might win against an engine because it has no time to build up, while the Beggar gives it all the time of the world.

[popsofctown]

Workshop has been shown to not be a very good Gardens rush enabler.

I know nothing about Dominion anymore. 

[Robz888]

I'm quite sure the winner is Ironworks. Ironworks mops up Gardens (or Silk Roads) like nobody's business.

[dondon151]

I know nothing about Dominion anymore.

Perhaps I should qualify that: it loses to strong-ish BM as well as any decent engine.

[DG]

Perhaps I should qualify that: it loses to strong-ish BM as well as any decent engine.

In two player . In three player games you really need to watch out for two opponents running out the piles with workshops.

[popsofctown]

I know nothing about Dominion anymore.

Perhaps I should qualify that: it loses to strong-ish BM as well as any decent engine.

So how strong is strongish BM?  Embassy and above?

[dondon151]

So how strong is strongish BM?  Embassy and above?

I don't know, I can't tell you because I'm not good with the simulators. I might be misremembering the BM matchup. WS/Gardens averages 18.6 turns to a 3-pile ending though if the Gardens are uncontested, and engines can beat that.

[DG]

Here's a very simple workshop/gardens script. In 2 player it will just about beat a terminal draw + treasure strategy but lose to a better sustained treasure deck, such as jack-of-all-trades or chancellor/stash. It does become much stronger in 3-player.

Code: [Select]

<player name="Gardens/workshop"
 author="DG"
 description="Workshop and Gardens">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Workshop">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Workshop"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens"/>
   <buy name="Workshop"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countEmptyPiles"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

[Tables]

I know nothing about Dominion anymore.

Perhaps I should qualify that: it loses to strong-ish BM as well as any decent engine.

Well, Workshop/Gadens beats double Jack about 60/40. Double Jack is rarely optimal, but it's definitely high up in terms of BM strategies. Still, slightly surprised by that, I had always thought Workshop/Gardens was pretty dominant...

[DStu]

I know nothing about Dominion anymore.

Perhaps I should qualify that: it loses to strong-ish BM as well as any decent engine.

Well, Workshop/Gadens beats double Jack about 60/40. Double Jack is rarely optimal, but it's definitely high up in terms of BM strategies. Still, slightly surprised by that, I had always thought Workshop/Gardens was pretty dominant...

You can also start denying Gardens, I would guess Jack wins against Gardens in this case.  I only know this for Smithy.  Of course, you have to be careful, of not speeding up the game.  But in a BigMoney mirror, you would start grabbing Duchies with something like 4 Provinces left, so about after you bought 2 Provinces. If you follow this strat for BM-Smithy, it beats WS/Gardens.
You shorten the game a bit, so Gardens will unlikely go up to 4 points, and every Gardens is a 5 point swing this way, almost as good as a Province, as they can't get Duchies.  With just two Gardens and 2 Provinces you are already 16:18 against the remaining 6 Gardens, that's a small gap to overcome with the stronger deck which can get Duchies or Provinces instead of Estates.

[Avalanchian]

You can also start denying Gardens, I would guess Jack wins against Gardens in this case.  I only know this for Smithy.  Of course, you have to be careful, of not speeding up the game.  But in a BigMoney mirror, you would start grabbing Duchies with something like 4 Provinces left, so about after you bought 2 Provinces. If you follow this strat for BM-Smithy, it beats WS/Gardens.
You shorten the game a bit, so Gardens will unlikely go up to 4 points, and every Gardens is a 5 point swing this way, almost as good as a Province, as they can't get Duchies.  With just two Gardens and 2 Provinces you are already 16:18 against the remaining 6 Gardens, that's a small gap to overcome with the stronger deck which can get Duchies or Provinces instead of Estates.

This is something that I feel makes analysing these rush strategies difficult. Often when I try a rush strategy, my opponent will catch what I'm doing early and start grabbing the cards that give me points (Dukes, and Duchies in IGG games bring back particularly painful memories). This causes the classic "to green, or not to green" metagame which gets more complex due to the presence of alt-VP. I imagine it's tricky to get simulators to take this all into account on the fly in a game, but I have seen people do some pretty impressive stuff with AIs.

[Drab Emordnilap]

This is something that I feel makes analysing these rush strategies difficult. Often when I try a rush strategy, my opponent will catch what I'm doing early and start grabbing the cards that give me points (Dukes, and Duchies in IGG games bring back particularly painful memories). This causes the classic "to green, or not to green" metagame which gets more complex due to the presence of alt-VP. I imagine it's tricky to get simulators to take this all into account on the fly in a game, but I have seen people do some pretty impressive stuff with AIs.

If you're buying IGG when they're buying Duchies, then you can just go back to building any other normal deck and get Provinces instead, since their deck is going to be full of curses and green.

[DStu]

You can also start denying Gardens, I would guess Jack wins against Gardens in this case.  I only know this for Smithy.  Of course, you have to be careful, of not speeding up the game.  But in a BigMoney mirror, you would start grabbing Duchies with something like 4 Provinces left, so about after you bought 2 Provinces. If you follow this strat for BM-Smithy, it beats WS/Gardens.
You shorten the game a bit, so Gardens will unlikely go up to 4 points, and every Gardens is a 5 point swing this way, almost as good as a Province, as they can't get Duchies.  With just two Gardens and 2 Provinces you are already 16:18 against the remaining 6 Gardens, that's a small gap to overcome with the stronger deck which can get Duchies or Provinces instead of Estates.

As we are in Simulations, here a little BigMoney-Smithy script that beats Workshop/Gardens

Code: [Select]

<player name="Smithy denying Gardens"
 author="DStu"
 description="Big Money that contests Gardens.  Will beat Workshop/Garden rushes">
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="15.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countVP"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="countMAXOpponentVP"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="11.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
Works with most strong BigMoney cards like Monument, Courtyard, Merchant Ship etc...

[Asklepios]

I'd say Ironworks, but Great Hall as well makes for the best Gardens enabler. And maybe Crossroads as a fourth card in the Kingdom.

That way if you draw multiple Ironworks and the Ironworks pile is empty you can generate X-1 Great Halls and 1 Garden. And if Great Halls and Ironworks are gone you can get a Crossroads in the hope of being able to generate multiple Gardens later. Also you'd be able to pick up Crossroads whenever you have a spare $2.

Something like this:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/06/game-20130306-011922-5fae9ab1.html

I'm not sure what the optimal time to start gaining each card type would be though, especially in a real game where other players are competing for the piles.

[_me]

How good are squires with gardens?
I haven't tested it yet, it should get one of those buys every time you draw a squire:
garden/copper/copper
squire/squire/copper
estate/estate/copper
squire/copper/copper
estate/copper/copper
It should at least be faster than beggar, because of possible double estate/double squires buys.

Yes, i registered here just to post that. xD

[Avalanchian]

Welcome to the forums _me! That's a good point about Squire. Two +buys on a single card isn't to be sneezed at when all you need is copper to get your money density to 0.8. Also, the fact that with two Squires in hand you can still play them both for +$1 means that terminal collision isn't as annoying as it is with, say, Workshops. It doesn't give the terminal gold that Beggar does, but often that effect can be over-kill in a gardens deck.

I'm not a great gardens player though, so sim data to back any of this up would be handy.

[DStu]

How good are squires with gardens?
I haven't tested it yet, it should get one of those buys every time you draw a squire:
garden/copper/copper
squire/squire/copper
estate/estate/copper
squire/copper/copper
estate/copper/copper
It should at least be faster than beggar, because of possible double estate/double squires buys.

Yes, i registered here just to post that. xD

Yepp, seems nice.  I still think Beggar will beat it, Beggar is a real strange card for Gardens.  It's a slog that outpaces the rushes on the cards.  You can open Beggar/Gardens, I doubt that you can do this with Squire and keep that pace, Beggar can.
Nevertheless you a right, that's probably more of a rush than Beggar, it will probably perform better than Beggar against decks that outpaces Beggars but is not fast enough for Squire.

[AdamH]

In my (limited) experience with DA cards enabling Gardens, I'd like to share a couple of anecdotal stories of me getting crushed.

First, Squire/Gardens is most definitely a thing. My opponent opened Develop/Develop and got like 4 of those before going nuts with Squires and Gardens, which I don't know if it helped, but I got whomped that game.

Second, in a Beggar/Gardens mirror, any opening other than double Beggar just lost tempo. You get Beggars on 2/3 until you have 3 or 4 of them, then you get Gardens. Seems pretty typical for Gardens to run, then Coppers, then something else -- Estates or Beggars.

[DStu]

Second, in a Beggar/Gardens mirror, any opening other than double Beggar just lost tempo. You get Beggars on 2/3 until you have 3 or 4 of them, then you get Gardens. Seems pretty typical for Gardens to run, then Coppers, then something else -- Estates or Beggars.

I'm pretty sure I had sims for Beggar/Gardens over Beggar/Beggar

[Beyond Awesome]

I have found Beggar/Gardens to be pretty damn strong. Beggar/Beggar seems the right opening here from my experience.

[SirPeebles]

Second, in a Beggar/Gardens mirror, any opening other than double Beggar just lost tempo. You get Beggars on 2/3 until you have 3 or 4 of them, then you get Gardens. Seems pretty typical for Gardens to run, then Coppers, then something else -- Estates or Beggars.

A Beggar/Gardens deck can usually afford Duchies.

[AdamH]

Second, in a Beggar/Gardens mirror, any opening other than double Beggar just lost tempo. You get Beggars on 2/3 until you have 3 or 4 of them, then you get Gardens. Seems pretty typical for Gardens to run, then Coppers, then something else -- Estates or Beggars.

A Beggar/Gardens deck can usually afford Duchies.

After coppers run out?

[DStu]

Second, in a Beggar/Gardens mirror, any opening other than double Beggar just lost tempo. You get Beggars on 2/3 until you have 3 or 4 of them, then you get Gardens. Seems pretty typical for Gardens to run, then Coppers, then something else -- Estates or Beggars.

A Beggar/Gardens deck can usually afford Duchies.

After coppers run out?

I don't think that this will happen that open.

I simed Beggar/Beggar opening vs. Beggar/Gardens and it seems as if Beggar/Beggar has a slight edga 52/48 @10,000 games.  It's not as if one of them a mistake.  I think Beggar/Gardens helps when playing against rushes to win the split, so if there is also an rush on the game, maybe open Beggar/Gardens to defend against this, you don't lose much in the mirror, and win an alot against the rushes.