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Author Topic: Vault on a Tunnel Board  (Read 10645 times)

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Asper

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Vault on a Tunnel Board
« on: March 04, 2013, 08:53:15 am »
+1

Recently we played on a Tunnel board, and i happened to hit a 5/2 opening. I bought a Vault.
My second buy was Squire, the only 2$ in the kingdom. I only bought one more type of action card, and no other Squire.

My opponents bought Tunnels like crazy. They had a reason to do so, because from turn 3 on i played Vault almost every turn. The one time i did not, i bought my (one and only) Tunnel, but that was late in the game. So my question to you is: What other cards synergized good enough with Vault to make me (almost) ignore Tunnel and win with this strategy?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 08:55:45 am by Asper »
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hsiale

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 08:55:27 am »
0

Grand Market?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 09:04:49 am »
0

Platinum?
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DStu

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 09:12:55 am »
0

Tactician?
Library?
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 09:20:54 am »
0

No, sorry, none of those.
Some more hints: I also spammed a third card besides Vault and that other Action. Both cards also synergized with each other, but Vault and that Action helped me do it. It was a Province game, too - i wouldn't have done it otherwise, because i needed some set-up time.
Now it's easy.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 09:29:31 am by Asper »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 09:24:37 am »
0

Alchemist?
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DStu

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 09:26:09 am »
0

Alchemist?
I doubt that Alchemist is worth it on a Province-Vault board.

I would have said "Tunnel", but from the description it doesn't seems to be the case...
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Qvist

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 09:31:01 am »
0

Hunting Party?

Galzria

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 09:34:06 am »
0

Hunting Party?

But why does HP need the Vault? That could actually be pretty bad for it... given that Vault is a Terminal Draw. Reshuffling the deck would be terrible if it causes those HP's to go down.

Plus... not many boards have no Terminal Silver that would've worked better in Vaults place there.
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Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

RTT

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 09:35:28 am »
0

scheme?
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dondon151

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 09:37:41 am »
0

I'm tempted to say Hoard; your last clue basically limits this to kingdom Treasures...

That said, a lot of engines can beat Vault-Tunnel.
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Qvist

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 09:39:59 am »
0

Hunting Party?

But why does HP need the Vault? That could actually be pretty bad for it... given that Vault is a Terminal Draw. Reshuffling the deck would be terrible if it causes those HP's to go down.

Plus... not many boards have no Terminal Silver that would've worked better in Vaults place there.

I'm not saying that it has to make sense, but this is the card that comes to my mind when he's saying "spamming". Especially as he said he played Vault nearly every turn, HP might help that.

Galzria

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 09:40:23 am »
0

Hunting Party?

But why does HP need the Vault? That could actually be pretty bad for it... given that Vault is a Terminal Draw. Reshuffling the deck would be terrible if it causes those HP's to go down.

Plus... not many boards have no Terminal Silver that would've worked better in Vaults place there.

I'm not saying that it has to make sense, but this is the card that comes to my mind when he's saying "spamming". Especially as he said he played Vault nearly every turn, HP might help that.

;D True
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 09:44:17 am »
0

Alchemist?
I doubt that Alchemist is worth it on a Province-Vault board.

I would have said "Tunnel", but from the description it doesn't seems to be the case...

Well, I don't know how great his opponent is.  There are certain strategies which tend to be too slow against a skilled player, but which can reach dominance given the time provided by a less skilled adversary.
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Galzria

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 09:45:56 am »
0

I mean...

You could grab Loan to clear out your deck of Coppers... If you've got Necropolis/Squire that's two Villages already... so you likely don't need for your Action card to be non-terminal. At that point you could mix in any number of things.

Governor?

Clean deck out with Loan, Play Governor for Gold, Squire/Necropolis for Action, Vault for (some) draw/discard ($$$), and then another Governor or two to flip the Gold to Province?

But does that beat just straight opening Governor? And Vault isn't really a strong draw there... although it would be easy to both Remodel AND buy a Province each turn.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 09:48:22 am »
0

My opponents were no pros.

About "Spamming"... What i meant is, i did concentrate on those cards. Sorry, i didn't want to imply i played the second card often. But i... used it often. ;) *Hint Hint*

Also you can guarantee you'll play Vault often simply by having many Vaults.

Actually i did not expect to so clearly beat Tunnels, and a Tunnel would have helped myself. I just never had the time to buy one. Obviously speed was the main difference between my tactic and theirs - i needed setup, but mine was faster.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 09:57:17 am by Asper »
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RTT

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 09:50:23 am »
0

caravan , remodel, Wharf ?

Quote
But i... used it often. Actually both other cards had benefits besides playing them. ;) *Hint Hint*

so maybe watchtower --> topdecking new vaults and golds
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 09:55:08 am by RTT »
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Qvist

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 09:59:07 am »
0

Ok, so if you say that you didn't play it often, I guess you mean a Reaction card. Then it heavily depends on your opponents and the other cards on the board. With trashing of your opponents I guess that Market Square would be pretty good.

SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 10:02:10 am »
0

Market Square doesn't trigger from your opponent trashing.
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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 10:03:08 am »
0

I meant to say Bishop, sorry.

SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 10:05:13 am »
0

Rats and Market Square?
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 10:08:30 am »
0

Ok, so if you say that you didn't play it often, I guess you mean a Reaction card. Then it heavily depends on your opponents and the other cards on the board. With trashing of your opponents I guess that Market Square would be pretty good.

Nope, i don't mean a Reaction. Maybe i should tell you, before you get exited and expect something extremely powerful and new. But if you want to keep guessing: The board had no discard attacks, so i knew playing Vault would always give me a certain amount of money. Also, i often played more than one, still almost never got 8$, and didn't care.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:09:52 am by Asper »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2013, 10:12:09 am »
0

Duke?
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Avalanchian

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2013, 10:12:16 am »
0

Call me crazy (I prefer Mr. Crazy, but I'm fussy like that) but I'm tempted to say Duke?

Edit: Ninja'd! At least I wasn't the only one to think of that. If I'm thinking along similar lines to Sir Peebles, I feel I'm doing well.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:13:36 am by Avalanchian »
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2013, 10:13:39 am »
0

Okay, i'm gonna tell you one of them: Border Village. It helped me fill my deck with itself and Vault, because Vault always hits 6$ with a normal starting hand. It also made it possible to hit 6$ without discarding everything i had in hand..
The other was not Duke, but we are getting closer.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:16:37 am by Asper »
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RTT

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2013, 10:14:44 am »
0

IGG?
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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2013, 10:15:23 am »
0

Fairgrounds?

Avalanchian

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2013, 10:16:05 am »
0

IGG?
I thought that too, but IGG would make it more likely to hit $8 no?
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2013, 10:19:56 am »
0

Fairgrounds?

Fairgrounds wouldn't be a very good buy with my cards. But it's somehow "closer" than Duke.

Also: It's not a card for 5$.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:21:41 am by Asper »
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DStu

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2013, 10:20:57 am »
0

King's Court
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Galzria

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2013, 10:22:10 am »
0

Oh, this is obvious!

Scout
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2013, 10:23:21 am »
0

Can't be Silk Road, can it?
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RTT

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2013, 10:24:34 am »
+2

or farmlands trashin borde vilages for provinces
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2013, 10:25:28 am »
+1

or farmlands trashin borde vilages for provinces

We have a Winner ;)

As i said it's not the super-extreme-hyper-over9000-power-combo, but i was surprised how obvious my victory was. Of course Vault makes Farmlands-to-Province easier, too, and if it misses that, i could always do that with BV.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:28:29 am by Asper »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2013, 10:25:39 am »
0

or farmlands trashin borde vilages for provinces

And Vault into Border Village regaining your Vault.
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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2013, 10:27:04 am »
0

or farmlands trashin borde vilages for provinces

And Vault into Border Village regaining your Vault.
has to be exactly 2 more so thats not possible
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2013, 10:31:36 am »
0

or farmlands trashin borde vilages for provinces

And Vault into Border Village regaining your Vault.

That would have been cute :)

I hope you guys are not disappointed after all ^^''
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RTT

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2013, 10:36:17 am »
0

thanks for the puzzle

you cant use farmlands to great effect that often so this is a neat way to play them.
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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2013, 01:24:41 pm »
0

Log? I don't know how strong this could actually be, since BV and Farmland conflict at $6 and Vault won't get you to $6 unless you discard everything or have enough Silver or Copper. Vault-Tunnel sounds much faster to me.
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2013, 06:28:37 pm »
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Log? I don't know how strong this could actually be, since BV and Farmland conflict at $6 and Vault won't get you to $6 unless you discard everything or have enough Silver or Copper. Vault-Tunnel sounds much faster to me.

Sorry, no Log. This was a "real world" game.
Also i see there might be stronger strategies. Maybe i won because the others played bad. Maybe this was not worth a puzzle. Sorry in that case.

Once the engine was set i played BV, Vault, Vault almost every turn, which left me with 7 cards in hand, one of them ideally being a BV or Farmlands. I also bought Farmlands when it was not possible to keep a card in hand, or no 6$ - i got two Gardens out of Estates by this. So yeah, maybe it was the Board as a whole, not only those three cards. Attacks for example would be some other thing that could break this strategy.

Tunnel + Vault sure is nice. It gives the money needed and comes with free 6$-cards to work with Farmlands, so no decision between concurring 6$s. But i think it lacks the free Vaults the engine needed to go faster, so i would either have had to buy more Tunnels, losing time, or buy more Vaults, losing time. With a 3/4 split, that's a totally different thing, of course.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:46:07 pm by Asper »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2013, 06:54:39 pm »
0

I apologize if this is obvious to you, but when people are suggesting Vault/Tunnel, it's not so much to trash Gold into Province with the Farmland purchases.  Rather, a hand with Gold and Vault guarantees $8 for a Province, presuming that you play the Vault and discard everything but the Gold.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2013, 08:22:36 pm »
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Log? I don't know how strong this could actually be, since BV and Farmland conflict at $6 and Vault won't get you to $6 unless you discard everything or have enough Silver or Copper. Vault-Tunnel sounds much faster to me.

Sorry, no Log. This was a "real world" game.
Also i see there might be stronger strategies. Maybe i won because the others played bad. Maybe this was not worth a puzzle. Sorry in that case.

Once the engine was set i played BV, Vault, Vault almost every turn, which left me with 7 cards in hand, one of them ideally being a BV or Farmlands. I also bought Farmlands when it was not possible to keep a card in hand, or no 6$ - i got two Gardens out of Estates by this. So yeah, maybe it was the Board as a whole, not only those three cards. Attacks for example would be some other thing that could break this strategy.

Tunnel + Vault sure is nice. It gives the money needed and comes with free 6$-cards to work with Farmlands, so no decision between concurring 6$s. But i think it lacks the free Vaults the engine needed to go faster, so i would either have had to buy more Tunnels, losing time, or buy more Vaults, losing time. With a 3/4 split, that's a totally different thing, of course.

The rest of the board could be relevant.  Gardens does make BV more attractive... then again, activating Tunnel is probably better for Gardens too!
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2013, 08:13:48 am »
0

I apologize if this is obvious to you, but when people are suggesting Vault/Tunnel, it's not so much to trash Gold into Province with the Farmland purchases.  Rather, a hand with Gold and Vault guarantees $8 for a Province, presuming that you play the Vault and discard everything but the Gold.

Actually that totally slipped my mind, even though it is obvious.

Log? I don't know how strong this could actually be, since BV and Farmland conflict at $6 and Vault won't get you to $6 unless you discard everything or have enough Silver or Copper. Vault-Tunnel sounds much faster to me.

Sorry, no Log. This was a "real world" game.
Also i see there might be stronger strategies. Maybe i won because the others played bad. Maybe this was not worth a puzzle. Sorry in that case.

Once the engine was set i played BV, Vault, Vault almost every turn, which left me with 7 cards in hand, one of them ideally being a BV or Farmlands. I also bought Farmlands when it was not possible to keep a card in hand, or no 6$ - i got two Gardens out of Estates by this. So yeah, maybe it was the Board as a whole, not only those three cards. Attacks for example would be some other thing that could break this strategy.

Tunnel + Vault sure is nice. It gives the money needed and comes with free 6$-cards to work with Farmlands, so no decision between concurring 6$s. But i think it lacks the free Vaults the engine needed to go faster, so i would either have had to buy more Tunnels, losing time, or buy more Vaults, losing time. With a 3/4 split, that's a totally different thing, of course.

The rest of the board could be relevant.  Gardens does make BV more attractive... then again, activating Tunnel is probably better for Gardens too!

I'm thinking about what you said, and you have a point. I could have bought a Tunnel on turn 3, and possibly another Vault or Tunnel on turn 4. The problem with this is that i would still be stuck with either one Vault or only one Tunnel. So after discarding up to two Tunnels for Gold, maybe buying another one and another Vault on turns 5 and 6, i could have bought a Province every other turn from about turn 7 on. Without Tunnel i started a bit later, but with a higher chance of getting one - i did not need luck to have a Vault in hand every turn, i just had so many of them, and also could play more than one every turn to fasten cycling.

Tunnels also give extra VP - but while buying a Province gives you 6 Points, trashing BV for one by buying Farmlands gets you 8. So this is evened out (more than that, actually - at least in our game).

I also could probably have started buying Farmlands erlier, myself - i did not play perfect. But you might be right that it's a close call. I'd like to see it in a game with somebody who is really good at Dominion. :)

I don't remember the Board as a whole, but Gardens (and maybe Squire) were everything that actually mattered.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 08:45:04 am by Asper »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2013, 11:41:01 am »
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However many Vaults you had, you could have just as many with Tunnel. In fact, you could mix both strategies easily. Buy Tunnels and Vaults until you have a decent amount. If you have just $6, maybe from a Vault, you could buy BV and gain another Vault. When you  start greening, you can buy Tunnel, Province or Farmland depending on the hand.

The presence of Squire makes Gardens a lot more attractive though.
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Asper

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2013, 11:53:18 am »
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However many Vaults you had, you could have just as many with Tunnel. In fact, you could mix both strategies easily. Buy Tunnels and Vaults until you have a decent amount. If you have just $6, maybe from a Vault, you could buy BV and gain another Vault. When you  start greening, you can buy Tunnel, Province or Farmland depending on the hand.

The presence of Squire makes Gardens a lot more attractive though.

EDIT: I just played on Isotropic and it seems i either was very unlucky this time, or very lucky the last. Still i'd like to test out which strategy is better in direct comparison. Until then i guess i won't know it. You have a lot of respect, and that does not come from nothing, so i'll keep your argumentation in mind and try it out soon.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:00:45 pm by Asper »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2013, 11:57:15 am »
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However many Vaults you had, you could have just as many with Tunnel. In fact, you could mix both strategies easily. Buy Tunnels and Vaults until you have a decent amount. If you have just $6, maybe from a Vault, you could buy BV and gain another Vault. When you  start greening, you can buy Tunnel, Province or Farmland depending on the hand.

The presence of Squire makes Gardens a lot more attractive though.

And there i disagree. I believe that at the time you start greening, i'd end the game. You can mix the strategies. But there is no need. I'd buy a Tunnel only if i did not hit 6$. I always did hit 6$ at that game, though. But maybe i'm wrong and you're right, that respect you have won't come from nothing. I'll let myself get proven wrong.

I'm just not sure why you think a strategy that relies on hitting 6 multiple times is faster than a strategy that doesn't. Tunnel-Vault can start hitting Provinces really early!
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DStu

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2013, 12:03:07 pm »
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And there i disagree. I believe that at the time you start greening, i'd end the game. You can mix the strategies. But there is no need. I'd buy a Tunnel only if i did not hit 6$. I always did hit 6$ at that game, though. But maybe i'm wrong and you're right, that respect you have won't come from nothing. I'll let myself get proven wrong.

I'm not sure, but I think given the fact that you always hit $6, I believe that you don't want a Tunnel here, but prefer BV-Vault or later Farmland-Province.
I think nobody really considered this case because it is pretty unlikely, you have to draw Vault in T3 (5/11), than there is a 2/12 chance to redraw a Vault in T4. After this, there a lots of Vaults in the deck, but still it might fail.  So less than 1/10 chance of this happening, just for the first two turns.  I guess the prioriy is more or less
Border Village/Farmland
Vault
Tunnel

If you always happen to get the Border Village, you don't end up with the Tunnels, but it nevertheless should belong to your strategy.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:05:35 pm by DStu »
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DStu

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2013, 12:04:56 pm »
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You have a lot of respect, and that does not come from nothing, so i'll keep your argumentation in mind and try it out soon.

Most respect comes from jokes in the mem-thread.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Vault on a Tunnel Board
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2013, 12:06:54 pm »
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You have a lot of respect, and that does not come from nothing, so i'll keep your argumentation in mind and try it out soon.

Most respect comes from jokes in the mem-thread.

But I only post edge cases in the meme thread!  ;)

I have no idea where my respect is from.
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