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[sandstorm]

I have been thinking about whether every card has a board where it is part of an optimal opening strategy.  There are only a few where I am certain that it is impossible to construct a board where these cards are included in the optimal opening 2 turns strategy.

Those would be:
Outpost
Duke
Curse

I think Scout has got to be pretty close to being on this list.  I'm not totally positive though that some board with Scout, Wishing Well, Great Hall, Nobles, and Harem may exist that makes it best to open Scout.

Throne Room is tough to decide on.  I can't really think of a board where it is optimal to open with but I am not 100% certain that one doesn't exist.

You might be thinking that cards such as Gardens, Silk Road, Feodum, and Duchy should be on this list.  However I think it is possible to create kingdoms where these cards exist alongside cheap enablers such as Beggar and Squire where it would actually be best to open with these.  Feodum also has its on trash ability which gives it some utility.  I think for Duchy to be a good open you would need Duchess, Duke, and either Beggar or Squire (along with a very dead kingdom) to make it an optimal opening.

Estate is the correct opening on any board that is using Shelters and it is best to open Apprentice or other TFB and you have a 5/2 split.

Village, Farming Village, Fortress, and Wandering Minstrel also come to mind but I think they could be part of an optimal opening if there is a board with a cheap engine to build and no important 5+ coin cards.

Thoughts?

[Mic Qsenoch]

Outpost/FG seems viable to me. And I think opening Outpost on a Menagerie board with good $2 and $3 targets could be nice.

edit: Maybe Outpost/Beggar on a Gardens board without any other plus buy.

[liopoil]

ambassador/curse??

[^_^_^_^]

ambassador/curse??

I've won with it.

[SirPeebles]

wuthefwasthat posted a puzzle solution in which one player opens with an Outpost.

But it loses to the classic Jester/Procession/Procession/Procession/Border Village/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Province/Province opening

[blueblimp]

Outpost isn't that hard to imagine. Something involving Peddler, maybe. Vineyards could also do it if there are $2 cantrips. It's way more plausible than Scout, anyway. (Even constructed Scout-friendly kingdoms don't want the Scout straight away.)

[GendoIkari]

ambassador/curse??

Would lose to Ambassador/Silver or Ambassador/Nothing or Amb/Amb.

[werothegreat]

Well, Potion cards are impossible to open with.

[sandstorm]

Looks like I may have underestimated Outpost.  Can anyone think of a kingdom where it is optimal to open Throne Room?

[sudgy]

Looks like I may have underestimated Outpost.  Can anyone think of a kingdom where it is optimal to open Throne Room?

I can't think of anything at the moment.  The trick would be to have an action card costing $3 or less that is amazing to play twice (enough that the throne room would be better than two of that card).  There could be something else, but that seems less likely.

[Saposhiente]

Well, Potion cards are impossible to open with.

You're second player. Opponent opens Noble Brigand, discards 2 of your estates, giving you a copper. You buy potion. Next turn, you draw 4 coppers and Potion and can open any potion card other than Possession.
(Possession opening is possible, but it requires 4-5 players and Masquerade passing good cards)
[/edgecase snipe]

[eHalcyon]

Here is a situation where opening Curse is optimal.

You are playing an opponent who is very strong, but has a short temper and goes on tilt easily.  He perceives your Curse opening as a taunt and becomes infuriated, thus allowing you to easily defeat him as he is blinded by rage.

[blueblimp]

ambassador/curse??

Would lose to Ambassador/Silver or Ambassador/Nothing or Amb/Amb.

Another way to look at it is: if it were good to buy a Curse in the opening, then you'd be helping your opponent the first time you play Amb on that Curse, since your opponent would want a Curse too.

[thirtyseven]

Throne Room/Masquerade on a board where an engine is best but there are no cards that give +2 actions?

[PSGarak]

Ok, here's a thought for Throne Room: for some reason, you want a card that costs exactly $4, and it's the best (or only) option. Now why would you want that...

Possibility 1: Trash-for-Benefit cards. So uh... Throne Room/Develop? No, there are better ways to get $5's.

Possibility 2: In case of attack. Like, maybe there's Swindler, and a really bad $3. Opening TR/Swindler gives you similar Swindling offensively as Swindler/Swindler, while cutting in half your exposure to your opponent's. This probably makes more sense in multiplayer. As in, you're going 6th and everyone else already opened double-Swindler.

Although in that case you don't have much choice, because all 10 Swindlers are already gone. Which come to think of it, is actually another category of reasons to open Throne Room. 6-player game, there's a card you want to open with two of (Ambassador?), and the pile is already gone by your second turn.

[ycz6]

This probably makes more sense in multiplayer. As in, you're going 6th and everyone else already opened double-Swindler.

You will probably have some difficulty buying a Swindler in that case.

[Drab Emordnilap]

You will probably have some difficulty buying a Swindler in that case.

Right, which is why you would open Swindler/Throne Room.

[Schneau]

Throne Room / Develop might be an optimal opening in a kingdom that has Peddler, Expand, and no other (worthwhile) Actions, but also has Colony and Platinum. Maybe the kingdom looks something like:

Develop, Tunnel, Throne Room, Royal Seal, Stash, Farmland, Expand, Peddler, Transmute, Philosopher's Stone

The idea here would be to use Thrones and Develops to get Peddlers and Expands, in order to hit Colony. Though, maybe Develop / Silver or Develop / Develop would be better for that, I'm not sure.

[popsofctown]

An opposing 5/2 Ghost ship would be pretty helpful for justifying a Throne Room opening, I think.

[LastFootnote]

When I think of a card that's never good in an opening, Harvest immediately comes to mind. Although I suppose even if you're likely to only get 1 or 2 Coins out of it, the cycling helps early-game.

[GendoIkari]

When I think of a card that's never good in an opening, Harvest immediately comes to mind. Although I suppose even if you're likely to only get 1 or 2 Coins out of it, the cycling helps early-game.

Opening Harvest seems really similar to opening Navigator... except slightly worse in the opening (unless you're playing with Shelters!)

[Vapo]

Woo, after months of lurking I finally have something to contribute and create an account for:

Throne/Chapel opening on a Poor House board. Pretty sure it's better than opening PH/chapel because you're guaranteed to have enough cash for a PH on the first shuffle, whereas you could fail to hit 4  if PH/chapel collide and 2+ estates are in the other hand.

[thirtyseven]

Woo, after months of lurking I finally have something to contribute and create an account for:

Throne/Chapel opening on a Poor House board. Pretty sure it's better than opening PH/chapel because you're guaranteed to have enough cash for a PH on the first shuffle, whereas you could fail to hit 4  if PH/chapel collide and 2+ estates are in the other hand.

I wonder how well that would work as an overall strategy, to open Throne/Chapel or Remake/Poorhouse and then rush Thrones and Poor Houses, switching to green when you have enough of each and have trashed down your other cards. Anyone with DA experience want to chime in with whether this would work or be a huge trap?

[crazyrunnerguy]

Well, Potion cards are impossible to open with.

You're second player. Opponent opens Noble Brigand, discards 2 of your estates, giving you a copper. You buy potion. Next turn, you draw 4 coppers and Potion and can open any potion card other than Possession.
(Possession opening is possible, but it requires 4-5 players and Masquerade passing good cards)
[/edgecase snipe]

Excellent Rube Goldberg.

[DStu]

Woo, after months of lurking I finally have something to contribute and create an account for:

Throne/Chapel opening on a Poor House board. Pretty sure it's better than opening PH/chapel because you're guaranteed to have enough cash for a PH on the first shuffle, whereas you could fail to hit 4  if PH/chapel collide and 2+ estates are in the other hand.

Geronimoo seems to disagree...