Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GendoIkari]

Come to think of it, why can you reveal a Moat multiple times when an opponents plays an Attack card, but you can't reveal a Tunnel multiple times when you discard it?   I mean, it's again clear that it would be a bad idea to allow this, but this seems to be the only Reaction card to date that would have a practical effect being revealed endlessly without having some sort of clause preventing it from being revealed multiple times.

You may reveal Moat multiple times from your hand because there is no way to verify that you aren't revealing multiple different Moats from your hand, short of revealing your hand to the opponent.  It's idempotent, so revealing multiples doesn't matter anyway.

Tunnel says that you may reveal it when you discard it.  You only discard it once, so you only have one chance at revealing it.

Now, maybe you want to go through that whole thing -- I discard a bunch of cards, now I go back and dig out one Tunnel, reveal, gain a Gold, and I go back and dig out a second Tunnel... except maybe I cheat and reveal the first one again... OK, so verification can be difficult with Tunnel since a bunch might be discarded at once.

But practically and intuitively, you just reveal them AS you discard, revealing multiples if you have multiples.  It is natural that you can't reveal the same one twice since you only discard it once.

Donald clarified this somewhere else... I'm pretty sure he basically said that one of them (revealing from hand or revealing from the discard) was an exception to the general "revealing" rule.

[AJD]

But in real life, lower case lose track you don't actually lose track of whatever you're revealing, because in real life, literal "when you discard" works exactly like "as you discard".

Yeah, so this is why I'm thinking that 'as you discard' should really be the best way to interpret and make consistent the rules on the card. The literal interpretation of "when you discard" is kind of absurd (for reasons discussed) and nobody would ever play that way; 'as you discard' makes its behavior a lot simpler.

[SirPeebles]

By the way, where do the rules state that cards are discarded simultaneously?  Because honestly, that's the part that I feel is awkward.  You gain cards one at a time.  You draw cards one at a time.  You buy cards one at a time.  You play cards, including treasures, one at a time.  You even clean up cards one at a time.  If you discarded one at a time then this wouldn't be an issue, and it would essentially never slow down an IRL game.

[eHalcyon]

By the way, where do the rules state that cards are discarded simultaneously?  Because honestly, that's the part that I feel is awkward.  You gain cards one at a time.  You draw cards one at a time.  You buy cards one at a time.  You play cards, including treasures, one at a time.  You even clean up cards one at a time.  If you discarded one at a time then this wouldn't be an issue, and it would essentially never slow down an IRL game.

I draw cards all at once.  IIRC, when you clean up, you are supposed to clean up all at once as well.

[SirPeebles]

I draw cards all at once.  IIRC, when you clean up, you are supposed to clean up all at once as well.

From the Alchemy Rules:

When a player discards cards from play, he may discard them in any order. This normally
does not matter, but is important for Alchemist and Herbalist.

As for drawing all at once, I guess I think about how you if you play a Smithy with only two cards in your draw pile, you draw them first and then reshuffle your discard.  You don't say, I need to draw 3 cards, but I don't have 3 cards, so I need to reshuffle now.

[AJD]

I draw cards all at once.

As for drawing all at once, I guess I think about how you if you play a Smithy with only two cards in your draw pile, you draw them first and then reshuffle your discard.

Moreover, this is important for Stash—in this example, you get to see what the first two cards you've drawn are before you decide whether or not you want to top-deck your Stash and draw it next.

[SirPeebles]

Moreover, this is important for Stash—in this example, you get to see what the first two cards you've drawn are before you decide whether or not you want to top-deck your Stash and draw it next.

I'd never thought of that!

[AJD]

By the way, where do the rules state that cards are discarded simultaneously?  Because honestly, that's the part that I feel is awkward.

I don't know if this is specifically in the rules or if it's just something Donald told us at some point, but I think it follows as a theorem from the rules "When discarding several cards at once, the player need not show all cards he is discarding to his opponents" and "The top card of a player’s Discard pile is always visible."

[eHalcyon]

I draw cards all at once.  IIRC, when you clean up, you are supposed to clean up all at once as well.

From the Alchemy Rules:

When a player discards cards from play, he may discard them in any order. This normally
does not matter, but is important for Alchemist and Herbalist.

As for drawing all at once, I guess I think about how you if you play a Smithy with only two cards in your draw pile, you draw them first and then reshuffle your discard.  You don't say, I need to draw 3 cards, but I don't have 3 cards, so I need to reshuffle now.

Fair point.  But in general practice, you clean up all at once and you draw all at once.  Order of cleanup only matters for a handful of cards, and once you deal with those few cards, you just sweep the rest into the discard.  The drawing thing only comes up with reshuffling.  Even in the reshuffling case though, I would think of it as drawing all at once.  I wouldn't draw my two cards, put them in my hand and think about them, and then reshuffle and draw card 3.  I would draw the two, set them aside, reshuffle, draw the the third and put all three into my hand at once.

Interesting how different people think of these standard mechanics differently.

PPE: OK, Stash makes it matter.

[Jeebus]

Wow, I was wrong! Thanks for the clarification. So you CAN topdeck Inn if you have Royal Seal in play.

Man, the FAQ I link to in my sig has covered that case for months.

[florrat]

By the way, where do the rules state that cards are discarded simultaneously?  Because honestly, that's the part that I feel is awkward.  You gain cards one at a time.  You draw cards one at a time.  You buy cards one at a time.  You play cards, including treasures, one at a time.  You even clean up cards one at a time.  If you discarded one at a time then this wouldn't be an issue, and it would essentially never slow down an IRL game.

Well, it's not stated specifically in the game rules as far as I know, but it follows from the description of the clean-up phase: if you would discard cards one by one the other players would be able to see all cards left in your hand (since each card you discard will be the top card of your discard pile for a moment), but the game rules do state that this is not the case.
So I guess it is a consequence of the rules.

[florrat]

Man, the FAQ I link to in my sig has covered that case for months.

Well, even if it was added yesterday, it would have been covered for months (February and March), so it's not that surprising