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Author Topic: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?  (Read 23513 times)

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SirPeebles

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2013, 01:00:08 pm »
+1

I don't get why always being visible helps with losing track

I think that the lose-track purposefully oversteps a bit; it's intended as a catch all.  Unless Donald X. kept card effects sufficiently simple, it's nearly impossible to avoid unintended rules gaps.  Hell, that's practically what we do here on this forum.  So the lose track rule basically says, hey, here are a few scenarios that could at least potentially lead us down a frightening rabbit hole, so I'm just going to cut off the funny business right now.  You're not generally allowed to look through your discard pile aside from the top card -- for instance, to move a card which has been covered up in the meantime -- so to stop any crazy unintended stuff, let's just say that if a card is even momentarily not on top, then it becomes off limits to moving.  And the rule even applies to card where, physically speaking, we have clearly and unambiguously regain real life track of the card, because hell, who wants to try to word the rulebook to allow for such exceptions?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2013, 01:05:32 pm »
+2


It just strikes me as weird that two successive snapshots of the game can look exactly the same to an outsider, but the legal moves are different because in one case the top card was covered for a bit and then undone, and in the other case it wasn't.

Sounds like your snapshots are too far apart. You should have a snapshot of the Inn on top, then something else on top, than an Inn on top.

Exactly. It seems that people are thinking that the only 2 times you ever look at the discard pile is right after you gain Inn, and right before you try to top-deck Inn. There's all that time in between where other things happen, and those things matter.

It's the same with the Border Village / Royal Seal question from here. Sure there were 2 separate times that the Border Village was seen on top, but loose track kicked in in between those 2 times because there was also a time that it wasn't on top.

In terms of using slight-of-hand to replace one Inn with another.... you CAN legally top-deck the Inn anyway, so I don't see a concern of someone illegally doing something that they could just as easily choose to legally do. I think the whole discussion of "is it the same Inn that's still on top of your discard" is moot, because if a person wants to top-deck the Inn, they can.
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AJD

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2013, 01:21:04 pm »
0

You're not generally allowed to look through your discard pile aside from the top card -- for instance, to move a card which has been covered up in the meantime -- so to stop any crazy unintended stuff, let's just say that if a card is even momentarily not on top, then it becomes off limits to moving.

I still don't understand why Tunnel doesn't lose track of itself.

I mean, I guess you activate Tunnel by revealing it, and the lose-track rule only refers to moving cards, and revealing a card doesn't move it, so if a Tunnel is lost-track-of that doesn't stop it from being revealed.

So I guess what's actually going on is that Tunnel implicitly licenses you to look through (some of) your discard pile, so you can find the Tunnel you just discarded and reveal it. This isn't unprecedented; Philosopher's Stone also implicitly licenses you to look through your discard pile, as verified by the FAQ.

But I think this is an interesting case where following the order-of-operations rules explicitly and to the letter makes it easier to cheat than doing what normal people would actually do.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2013, 01:28:34 pm »
0

You're not generally allowed to look through your discard pile aside from the top card -- for instance, to move a card which has been covered up in the meantime -- so to stop any crazy unintended stuff, let's just say that if a card is even momentarily not on top, then it becomes off limits to moving.

I still don't understand why Tunnel doesn't lose track of itself.

I mean, I guess you activate Tunnel by revealing it, and the lose-track rule only refers to moving cards, and revealing a card doesn't move it, so if a Tunnel is lost-track-of that doesn't stop it from being revealed.

So I guess what's actually going on is that Tunnel implicitly licenses you to look through (some of) your discard pile, so you can find the Tunnel you just discarded and reveal it. This isn't unprecedented; Philosopher's Stone also implicitly licenses you to look through your discard pile, as verified by the FAQ.

But I think this is an interesting case where following the order-of-operations rules explicitly and to the letter makes it easier to cheat than doing what normal people would actually do.

Tunnel is triggered when you discard it.  You discard cards one at a time.
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AJD

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2013, 01:29:36 pm »
0

You discard cards one at a time.

Not true.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2013, 01:33:22 pm »
0

You discard cards one at a time.

Not true.

You're right, you do discard simultaneously. But there's 2 big reason why Tunnel doesn't lose track. First of all, lose track ONLY applies to the ability to move a card somewhere else. If you need to look at a card to figure out the cost, or types, or anything like that, lose track simply doesn't apply there. It only matters if you are attempting to move the card.

Second of all, I'm pretty sure no card can lose track of itself... it only applies when card A tries to move card B after something else (either card B or C) has moved it.
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AJD

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2013, 01:37:12 pm »
0

But there's 2 big reason why Tunnel doesn't lose track. First of all, lose track ONLY applies to the ability to move a card somewhere else. If you need to look at a card to figure out the cost, or types, or anything like that, lose track simply doesn't apply there. It only matters if you are attempting to move the card.

Yeah, I agree. But note that this can put you in the odd situation of having to reveal a card that you may have actually lost track of (because it's been covered up in the discard pile).

Quote
Second of all, I'm pretty sure no card can lose track of itself... it only applies when card A tries to move card B after something else (either card B or C) has moved it.

That's not right. Hermit loses track of itself when top-decked with Scheme, for instance.
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cluckyb

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2013, 01:40:14 pm »
0

So there is just no way to top deck two Inns (so that both are the top), even with Haggler/BV/Highway'd Talisman magic, right?

Whole thing would be less confusing if the cards gained never even went to the discard pile to begin with (but instead went to purgatory with an arrow pointing where they were supposed to go, and while WT and other such cards can change the arrow, they can't move them once them leave purgatory. But I guess that would make the wording on the Inn harder). Overall it still mostly makes sense, it just feels a little weird that the order of the discard pile matters and the legality of the move depends purely on the physical actions of "does this card always remain on top while you're looking through the discard pile"
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ftl

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2013, 02:26:58 pm »
0

Yeah, I agree. But note that this can put you in the odd situation of having to reveal a card that you may have actually lost track of (because it's been covered up in the discard pile).

How could that happen? You reveal Tunnel when you discard it; presumably, that means you are holding it and putting it in your discard pile, and as you do that you reveal it.
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enfynet

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2013, 02:30:48 pm »
0

Yeah, I agree. But note that this can put you in the odd situation of having to reveal a card that you may have actually lost track of (because it's been covered up in the discard pile).

How could that happen? You reveal Tunnel when you discard it; presumably, that means you are holding it and putting it in your discard pile, and as you do that you reveal it.

Quote from: Tunnel
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.

Quote from: Tunnel (alternate)
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may gain a Gold.

How are these different?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 02:32:00 pm by enfynet »
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Asper

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2013, 02:37:28 pm »
0

Yeah, I agree. But note that this can put you in the odd situation of having to reveal a card that you may have actually lost track of (because it's been covered up in the discard pile).

How could that happen? You reveal Tunnel when you discard it; presumably, that means you are holding it and putting it in your discard pile, and as you do that you reveal it.

Quote from: Tunnel
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.

Quote from: Tunnel (alternate)
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may gain a Gold.

How are these different?
Second one leaves you no choice, but that's all.
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enfynet

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2013, 02:40:04 pm »
0

It still leaves you a choice, it says "[...] you may gain a Gold."
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GendoIkari

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2013, 02:52:49 pm »
0

Yeah, I agree. But note that this can put you in the odd situation of having to reveal a card that you may have actually lost track of (because it's been covered up in the discard pile).

How could that happen? You reveal Tunnel when you discard it; presumably, that means you are holding it and putting it in your discard pile, and as you do that you reveal it.

Quote from: Tunnel
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.

Quote from: Tunnel (alternate)
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may gain a Gold.

How are these different?

The difference is that cards that are discarded are hidden to the other players. Without the "reveal" part, there would be no way for all the other players to know that you discarded a Tunnel.
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enfynet

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2013, 03:15:00 pm »
0

Yeah, I agree. But note that this can put you in the odd situation of having to reveal a card that you may have actually lost track of (because it's been covered up in the discard pile).

How could that happen? You reveal Tunnel when you discard it; presumably, that means you are holding it and putting it in your discard pile, and as you do that you reveal it.

Quote from: Tunnel
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.

Quote from: Tunnel (alternate)
2 VP
----------
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may gain a Gold.

How are these different?

The difference is that cards that are discarded are hidden to the other players. Without the "reveal" part, there would be no way for all the other players to know that you discarded a Tunnel.
Which is exactly my point. You aren't losing track of something that you are revealing because you are doing it to show other players that you are discarding it. Otherwise you play Militia and I discard Tunnel and Copper at the same time, putting Copper on top of my discard, then picking up a Gold because, well I discarded a Tunnel.
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Donald X.

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2013, 03:36:34 pm »
+1

The difference is that cards that are discarded are hidden to the other players. Without the "reveal" part, there would be no way for all the other players to know that you discarded a Tunnel.
Correct.

"Lose track" has zero interaction with Tunnel. Tunnel doesn't try to move anything (well it moves a Gold from the supply, but not a particular one).

I agree that it's weird that you can reveal Tunnel from your discard pile. It says on the card that you can though. In practice obv. everyone shows the Tunnel as they discard it. "As you discard this" feels like it would be more confusing.
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AJD

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2013, 03:37:26 pm »
0

Yeah, I agree. But note that this can put you in the odd situation of having to reveal a card that you may have actually lost track of (because it's been covered up in the discard pile).

How could that happen? You reveal Tunnel when you discard it; presumably, that means you are holding it and putting it in your discard pile, and as you do that you reveal it.

So, that's what a normal person would do. I play Cellar, I discard four cards, and then while they're on their way to the discard pile, I show you that two of them are Tunnels and I take my two Golds and put them in the discard pile too.

But if you follow all the rules about when things happen, here's how this works:

1. I play a Cellar and discard 4 cards. You don't see what any of them are until after they're in the discard pile, and then you only see the one on top. Say it's an Estate.
2. Now that I've discarded them, I have the right to reveal the Tunnels I discarded. They both trigger simultaneously, so I choose the order to resolve them.
3. I resolve the first Tunnel—i.e., I reveal it, which means I have to root around among the top four cards in my discard pile to find where it is, and I pull it out and show it to you and put it back.
4. I gain a Gold. It goes on top of my discard pile.
5. I resolve the second Tunnel—so I hunt through the top five cards in my discard pile to find it, show it to you, and put it back.
6. I gain another Gold. It goes on top of my discard pile.
7. If I'm not cheating, I don't claim to have discarded a third Tunnel, look through my discard pile again, and pull out one of the ones I've already revealed. But if I am cheating, you don't really have any way to tell.

So following the rules exactly makes it easier to cheat, somehow.
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AJD

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2013, 03:44:15 pm »
0

The difference is that cards that are discarded are hidden to the other players. Without the "reveal" part, there would be no way for all the other players to know that you discarded a Tunnel.
"Lose track" has zero interaction with Tunnel. Tunnel doesn't try to move anything (well it moves a Gold from the supply, but not a particular one).

I agree that it's weird that you can reveal Tunnel from your discard pile. It says on the card that you can though. In practice obv. everyone shows the Tunnel as they discard it. "As you discard this" feels like it would be more confusing.

I agree with all of these points—it's weird, "as you discard" would be more confusing as card text, and in practice "as you discard" is what people do anyway and it's all good.

I think it's just kind of amusing that this is a case where the lose-track rule doesn't apply even if you literally lose track of the card.

Maybe the best way to understand Tunnel is that "as you discard" is what it actually does, even though it says "when you discard"—just like Nomad Camp says "when you gain", even though the actual effect is more like "when you would gain".
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dondon151

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2013, 03:55:41 pm »
0

Losing track has nothing to do with revealing. You can reveal a card from anywhere as long as you have been instructed to do so.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2013, 04:09:58 pm »
+1

No one is arguing that Lose Track with capital letters impacts revealing.  But real life, literal, lower-case losing track is absolutely relevant to revealing.  That's the point.
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ftl

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2013, 04:24:45 pm »
+1

But in real life, lower case lose track you don't actually lose track of whatever you're revealing, because in real life, literal "when you discard" works exactly like "as you discard".
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SirPeebles

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2013, 04:34:14 pm »
0

Yeah, it's not so bad with Tunnel, since everyone knows what is clearly intended.

Imagine a hypothetical card as follows

Quote
Prospector
$3 Action-Reaction

(...)
---
When you shuffle this into your deck, you may reveal it.  If you do, then reveal the top card of your deck.  If the revealed card is a Treasure, gain a Gold.  If the revealed card is a Curse, trash this Prospector.

For this card, you clearly need to shuffle before checking the top card.  But if the top card is indeed a Curse, how do you find the Prospector from inside your deck?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2013, 04:47:43 pm »
0

Yeah, it's not so bad with Tunnel, since everyone knows what is clearly intended.

Imagine a hypothetical card as follows

Quote
Prospector
$3 Action-Reaction

(...)
---
When you shuffle this into your deck, you may reveal it.  If you do, then reveal the top card of your deck.  If the revealed card is a Treasure, gain a Gold.  If the revealed card is a Curse, trash this Prospector.

For this card, you clearly need to shuffle before checking the top card.  But if the top card is indeed a Curse, how do you find the Prospector from inside your deck?

I think you basically just can't ever do that card. You can do "when you would shuffle this into your deck, reveal it" instead, but then you would need complex wording if you really wanted to reveal the top card of your deck AFTER the shuffle.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2013, 04:48:02 pm »
0

Come to think of it, why can you reveal a Moat multiple times when an opponents plays an Attack card, but you can't reveal a Tunnel multiple times when you discard it?   I mean, it's again clear that it would be a bad idea to allow this, but this seems to be the only Reaction card to date that would have a practical effect being revealed endlessly without having some sort of clause preventing it from being revealed multiple times.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2013, 04:49:03 pm »
0

Yeah, it's not so bad with Tunnel, since everyone knows what is clearly intended.

Imagine a hypothetical card as follows

Quote
Prospector
$3 Action-Reaction

(...)
---
When you shuffle this into your deck, you may reveal it.  If you do, then reveal the top card of your deck.  If the revealed card is a Treasure, gain a Gold.  If the revealed card is a Curse, trash this Prospector.

For this card, you clearly need to shuffle before checking the top card.  But if the top card is indeed a Curse, how do you find the Prospector from inside your deck?

I think you basically just can't ever do that card. You can do "when you would shuffle this into your deck, reveal it" instead, but then you would need complex wording if you really wanted to reveal the top card of your deck AFTER the shuffle.

Oh no, maybe I just spoiled the Goko exclusive promo  ;)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2013, 05:08:47 pm »
0

Come to think of it, why can you reveal a Moat multiple times when an opponents plays an Attack card, but you can't reveal a Tunnel multiple times when you discard it?   I mean, it's again clear that it would be a bad idea to allow this, but this seems to be the only Reaction card to date that would have a practical effect being revealed endlessly without having some sort of clause preventing it from being revealed multiple times.

You may reveal Moat multiple times from your hand because there is no way to verify that you aren't revealing multiple different Moats from your hand, short of revealing your hand to the opponent.  It's idempotent, so revealing multiples doesn't matter anyway.

Tunnel says that you may reveal it when you discard it.  You only discard it once, so you only have one chance at revealing it.

Now, maybe you want to go through that whole thing -- I discard a bunch of cards, now I go back and dig out one Tunnel, reveal, gain a Gold, and I go back and dig out a second Tunnel... except maybe I cheat and reveal the first one again... OK, so verification can be difficult with Tunnel since a bunch might be discarded at once.

But practically and intuitively, you just reveal them AS you discard, revealing multiples if you have multiples.  It is natural that you can't reveal the same one twice since you only discard it once.
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