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Author Topic: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?  (Read 23516 times)

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Asper

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Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« on: February 26, 2013, 03:05:49 pm »
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A few days ago, we played Dominion (surprise!) and somebody played Thief, revealing a Spoils. We then played with translated cards, and as always this went wrong. Now that i see the english original, am i right if i assume that Thief can trash Spoils, but never actually get them (even though they are in the trash where very few cards can gain from, anyhow)?

EDIT: I believe Thief cannot gain Spoils, as it says in the instructions i own (translated in german), that only Bandit Camp, Marauder and Pillage can gain Spoils. Also remember the fact that if i reveal another players Spoils with my Jester, i also can not gain Spoils.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 03:28:47 pm by Asper »
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Watno

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 03:11:49 pm »
+3

Thief is able to gain Spoils from the trash.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 03:13:27 pm »
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Why do you think that Thief cannot gain Spoils?  Thief says to gain a card any or all of the trashed cards, so that is what you do.  If Spoils was trashed, it fits.
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AdamH

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 03:20:12 pm »
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I think the confusion is that usually "gain" implies "gain from the supply" unless stated otherwise, and on Thief the text reads "you may gain any trashed cards".

Perhaps Thief doesn't explicitly say "gain from the trash" like Graverobber does, which could imply that you're supposed to gain it from the supply, and since Spoils is not in the supply, that means "OH NOEZ!! I CANNOT GAIN IT FOR IT IZ NOT IN TEH SUPPLY!!"

...but then again, we're not saying that the Gold your Thief hit visits the trash, THEN the supply, THEN your discard when you choose to gain it, but maybe that's what the card is "trying to say" with the wording?
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Asper

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 03:25:17 pm »
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"OH NOEZ!! I CANNOT GAIN IT FOR IT IZ NOT IN TEH SUPPLY!!"
Those were my exact words... No, really, in my rulebook (translated, too), it clearly says that Spoils can only be gained by Bandit Camp, Marauder or Pillage. Jester can't gain Spoils. Why can Thief?
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dondon151

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 03:31:02 pm »
+2

Jester gains cards from the supply. Thief gains cards from the trash. You can't gain a Spoils from the supply because there are none in the supply, but you can gain one from the trash if Thief specifies that you can gain that card that you just trashed.
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Asper

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 03:35:58 pm »
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Well, as all of you are so sure about it, i guess it makes sense. The Trash is not the Supply.
It does seem more natural, after all.
Thanks, guys.
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AdamH

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 03:38:42 pm »
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I like the ruling, but this sure looks like an exception to the rule that "gain" without additional qualifiers means "gain from the supply"...
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dondon151

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 03:41:30 pm »
+2

I like the ruling, but this sure looks like an exception to the rule that "gain" without additional qualifiers means "gain from the supply"...

It's not an exception based on my interpretation. Thief specifically tells you which cards you can gain. Therefore it's not telling you to "gain" something without an additional qualifier.
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Donald X.

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 03:44:04 pm »
+2

Thief is able to gain Spoils from the trash.
Correct. That bit in the rulebook is trying to make it clear that Workshop etc. can't gain Spoils. Thief specifically gains Treasures it trashes, and Spoils is a Treasure and Thief can trash it. Nothing about Spoils prevents Thief from getting one.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 04:48:35 pm »
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Thief is able to gain Spoils from the trash.
Correct. That bit in the rulebook is trying to make it clear that Workshop etc. can't gain Spoils. Thief specifically gains Treasures it trashes, and Spoils is a Treasure and Thief can trash it. Nothing about Spoils prevents Thief from getting one.

Should Thief say "you may gain any of the trashed cards from the trash"? It does seem to be the only card that gains from somewhere other than the supply without saying "gain from". If you had your Dominion time machine, of course.
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Donald X.

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 05:55:44 pm »
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Should Thief say "you may gain any of the trashed cards from the trash"? It does seem to be the only card that gains from somewhere other than the supply without saying "gain from". If you had your Dominion time machine, of course.
Thief doesn't confuse people, so I'm not so unhappy there. You get better as you go along, so maybe I'd tweak the wording now; I don't really want to consider every card carefully for these things, especially since the wording isn't changing.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2013, 05:56:06 pm »
+2

Thief is able to gain Spoils from the trash.
Correct. That bit in the rulebook is trying to make it clear that Workshop etc. can't gain Spoils. Thief specifically gains Treasures it trashes, and Spoils is a Treasure and Thief can trash it. Nothing about Spoils prevents Thief from getting one.

Should Thief say "you may gain any of the trashed cards from the trash"? It does seem to be the only card that gains from somewhere other than the supply without saying "gain from". If you had your Dominion time machine, of course.

Thief says you can gain any or all of the trashed cards.  This points directly to the cards that were just trashed.  There's no reason to think that one should gain from the supply, unless it said "gain a copy of".
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2013, 07:29:42 pm »
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If Thief trashed actions instead of treasures, could it gain your Fortress from your hand?

I think blue dogs prevent that, upon review.
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ftl

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2013, 07:43:40 pm »
+2

No, it wouldn't. You'd follow the card in order:

1) ActionThief tells an opponent to trash their fortress
Oh no! A when-trashed effect activates, putting the fortress in their hand
2) ActionThief tells you to gain the trashed fortress
...but it has lost track of fortress since it's not in the trash, so it can't gain it.

It's the lose-track rule.
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cluckyb

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 07:46:05 pm »
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If Thief trashed actions instead of treasures, could it gain your Fortress from your hand?

I think blue dogs prevent that, upon review.

It depends on if the Fortress still counts as a "trashed card" after you move it to your hand. I'd say yes, it is still a card that was trashed. So it is still one of the "trashed cards" and you gain it. It doesn't say "gain the card from the trash" so it can't lose track of it.
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AJD

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 08:07:35 pm »
+1

It doesn't say "gain the card from the trash" so it can't lose track of it.

This doesn't follow. Lose-track applies whenever a card tries to move a card that isn't where it's expected to be. ActionThief would expect Fortress to be in the trash, it wouldn't be there, so it wouldn't get gained.
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Donald X.

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 08:11:58 pm »
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It doesn't say "gain the card from the trash" so it can't lose track of it.

This doesn't follow. Lose-track applies whenever a card tries to move a card that isn't where it's expected to be. ActionThief would expect Fortress to be in the trash, it wouldn't be there, so it wouldn't get gained.
Answering questions about hypothetical cards is really beyond the scope for me, but yes.
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ftl

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 08:34:09 pm »
+1

In general, cards don't have to say where they expect something to be.

To bring that discussion back to real cards - Counterfeit. For example, if you play Counterfeit, Counterfeit says to play a treasure twice, then trash it. It doesn't specifically say "trash it from play" - but if you play Counterfeit on Spoils, the Spoils is returned to the Spoils pile, and so it can't be trashed because Counterfeit loses track of it.


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AJD

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 08:46:32 pm »
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It doesn't say "gain the card from the trash" so it can't lose track of it.

This doesn't follow. Lose-track applies whenever a card tries to move a card that isn't where it's expected to be. ActionThief would expect Fortress to be in the trash, it wouldn't be there, so it wouldn't get gained.
Answering questions about hypothetical cards is really beyond the scope for me, but yes.

Does Bandit count as a hypothetical card?  ::)
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ftl

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 12:54:59 am »
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What's Bandit?
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AJD

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Donald X.

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 01:25:47 am »
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Does Bandit count as a hypothetical card?  ::)
Yes. The intention is that the rules handle anything you might want to do on a Dominion card. But the rules only have to handle everything that I actually do, and it's bad to have rules you aren't using, so that's all they really cover; they do not actually handle everything I have tried.

This hypothetical card is covered by the rules but it's still not a great direction for rules discussions. The rules do not have to handle Bandit.
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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 04:41:05 am »
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I actually thought the Thief gained copies of the trashed cards from the supply before I played on Isotropic and saw that I had been playing it incorrectly.
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cluckyb

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Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 12:54:02 pm »
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It doesn't say "gain the card from the trash" so it can't lose track of it.

This doesn't follow. Lose-track applies whenever a card tries to move a card that isn't where it's expected to be. ActionThief would expect Fortress to be in the trash, it wouldn't be there, so it wouldn't get gained.

why does ActionThief expect Fortress to be in the trash? All it knows is the card was Trashed. Its not like with Madman where the "return" implies you can't do it a second time.
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