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Author Topic: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?  (Read 3071 times)

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heatthespurs

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When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« on: February 22, 2013, 02:51:17 am »
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The topic does suggest my impression that Fortune Teller is generally a weak card. But from time to time I see good players punish me with fortune teller (or a few fortune tellers).

So, when is it a good card? When is it a good opening? What is the board that could make it shines?
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Awaclus

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2013, 04:35:48 am »
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Potion/Fortune Teller is often a strong opening, especially if you're buying Potion for Familiar. Fortune Teller is also enhanced by cursers and Ambassador.
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Davio

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2013, 04:56:15 am »
+1

When the board is rich with Cantrips so you can easily afford it as a terminal.

I'm pretty convinced it's better than Silver - if you can always play it of course.  ;D

No really, just played a game where I opened FT/Potion looking for Universities and Alchemists to get me some Witches. I'm pretty sure the advanced cycling of his decks with a significant influx of Curses was pretty detrimental for him.

It also seemed like I skipped a good deal of his Witches, but that effect balances out probably.
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ednever

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 11:25:04 am »
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It's a bad attack (maybe the worst) and a terminal.

But if there isn't another terminal you would rather be playing, then it's an attack none the less. And it can do real damage on the margin. I lost the final in a qualifier for Nationals when I got hit with a badly timed Fortune Teller...

It can be her devastating in the end game when it cycles you faster, forcing you to delay Duchy buying for a turn or two.

Ed
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LastFootnote

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 12:17:43 pm »
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It's a bad attack (maybe the worst) and a terminal.

Really? You think it's worse than Thief, Saboteur, and Pirate Ship?
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brokoli

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 12:55:07 pm »
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It's a bad attack (maybe the worst) and a terminal.

Really? You think it's worse than Thief, Saboteur, and Pirate Ship?
Spy. Bureaucrat. Urchin.
I keep thinking fortune teller is a very underrated card, the attack really hurts more than people think... it is a bit like minion : for the next turn, one card is dead and the rest is drawn randomly.
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DG

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 01:28:35 pm »
+2

I think there is a common misconception that the fortune teller attack gets more powerful when there are more bad cards in the opponent's deck. I suspect that the opposite is actually true but it's probably not significant enough to worry about.

Fortune tellers are better when you can play them turn after turn causing repeated problems for the opponent. All attacks tend to work that way though. Fortune tellers can specifically cause problems for cards like banks, stables, or thrones that need something other than victory cards in hand. They can interfere quite well with an opponent's management of the draw deck, with the inn perhaps now being a more obvious example than the counting house. Fortune tellers can also hurt drawing cards, so a cartographer might be a waste of time once it draws a bad card into hand in order to discard bad cards from the top of the deck.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 01:33:52 pm by DG »
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Piemaster

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 02:02:09 pm »
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It's a quintessentially average card that I often find myself playing when there is no better terminal on the board, but not that often otherwise.
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Davio

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 02:15:08 pm »
+1

But saying "if there's no better terminal" isn't saying much.

More important is: "How often is there no better terminal?" I don't think it's that often, but also not that few.
Fortune Teller is a terminal action silver and thus good in Scrying Pool and Minion games and the like.
Fortune Teller and then Minion is a fun combo.

And the attack part is pretty meh, but then again, there aren't many $3 attacks so what else could it be for that price?
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Powerman

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 02:16:15 pm »
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It's a bad attack (maybe the worst) and a terminal.

Really? You think it's worse than Thief, Saboteur, and Pirate Ship?
Spy. Bureaucrat. Urchin.
I keep thinking fortune teller is a very underrated card, the attack really hurts more than people think... it is a bit like minion : for the next turn, one card is dead and the rest is drawn randomly.

It is almost certainly worse than Urchin's attack.  Both leave you with an effective 4 card hand, but there are more "counters" to a victory card on top / in hand than discarding 1.  At least FT, you can play a warehouse or something, and it doesn't matter you had a green.  Urchin is hurt by Library and Tunnel though.  So it's close, I suppose.
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jomini

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2013, 02:18:31 pm »
+1

Fortune teller is extremely strong if ever played before you force your opponent to draw a card. For instance village/Minion/Fortune teller is much stronger than a simple Minion hit. Odds that the opponent won't have a Minion in the 4 cards they draw go way up. Likewise, the card they get to draw from Council Room, Margrave, or Governor is much less if it will always be a green. Likewise, Fteller is very strong against other limited draw like Library or Watchtower if the opponent is using disappearing cash (e.g. Festival) - gumming up a slot really hurts their cycling and as a bonus if you are running limited draw, Fteller is cheap disappearing cash.

Some of the huge shots for Fteller are for attacks that target Green cards. The most obvious is Fteller/Sab. If they don't have estates then the combo assures they lose at least 2 VP if they aren't playing chips or complete megaturn and more often 3 or even 4. Fteller/Swindler destroys Alt-VP setups - turn Duchies into 5's, Fairgrounds into Golds, Gardens or Silk Roads into potions, it is not so hot against Feoda (too many free silvers) of course is terrible with Colonies. With Peddler out and no way to deplete the Peddler stack, Fteller/Swindler can destroy provinces with ease and most of the time Duchies as well. In addition a strong engine that can play the Fteller/Swindler combo 2 and 3 times on the last turn can destroy decent to huge points - particularly if you can gain the last province/colony during your action phase. Fteller/Knights goes strong against Alt-VP and can be strong against provinces with cost reduction (e.g. Princess). Fteller/Thief (or Pirate Ship) works well against Harems, but normally when that is viable the Harems aren't. All of these are double terminal shots and you really need a strong engine to hit them, they can let you claw back a win after you've started to lose, but they are slow and don't help you build much.

Fteller/Masq can work a bit - setup his next hand to have a big shiny green card in it and force him to hand over one of the other 4 hopefully high value cards (note this actively helps them other player in the early game). Fteller -> Tribute can be good if you want the Tribute to hit green; it is really strong if their only green are action/victory types like Nobles (this of course sucks if they have curses) or Harems. Late game, Fteller is great at killing Menage engines without discarding (you draw Prov/Prov/Menage/Menage/Nomad Camp and cry)

The big thing is not that Fteller is bad, it is that it is high variance. Sometimes it does nothing, sometimes it is a free Chancellor play. Reliably playing 4 card hands is annoying ... but most of the scenarios where you can hit that often are ones where you can also draw out of it.
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dondon151

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2013, 02:26:13 pm »
+1

It is almost certainly worse than Urchin's attack.  Both leave you with an effective 4 card hand, but there are more "counters" to a victory card on top / in hand than discarding 1.  At least FT, you can play a warehouse or something, and it doesn't matter you had a green.  Urchin is hurt by Library and Tunnel though.  So it's close, I suppose.

Disagree here. Urchin leaves you with the best 4 out of 5 cards (which basically never matters except in straight BM games). FT leaves you with a hand of 4 random cards plus a Victory card. FT is slightly better in general.

Compare to Minion's attack, which basically does the same thing, except there are more ways to counter FT. Or it's like Rabble if Rabble only left 1 Victory card on deck, which is just a little one the weak side but not so much.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 02:27:45 pm by dondon151 »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 07:06:41 pm »
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I think there is a common misconception that the fortune teller attack gets more powerful when there are more bad cards in the opponent's deck. I suspect that the opposite is actually true but it's probably not significant enough to worry about.
Well it does matter when the number of bad cards approaches zero. If there are no bad cards outside of the hand, the "attack" is just a chancellor for them. So if they can trash their Estates and there are no Curses, it's not much of an attack until they start greening.
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DG

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 08:18:24 pm »
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Quote
Well it does matter when the number of bad cards approaches zero. If there are no bad cards outside of the hand, the "attack" is just a chancellor for them. So if they can trash their Estates and there are no Curses, it's not much of an attack until they start greening.

That's true but if you are trashing out estates to improve your future hands, but the fortune teller puts them there anyway, your trashing could be wasted effort.
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ehunt

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Re: When is Fortune Teller a good buy?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 08:26:00 pm »
+1

fortune teller is good against highway/market/peddler/treasury/oasis-type decks.
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