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Author Topic: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?  (Read 3918 times)

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Asper

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Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« on: February 20, 2013, 05:52:23 pm »
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I read on the Strategy Wiki that if you play a Band of Misfits with Throne Room and use it as a Feast, you have to use it as a Feast both times. But why? Throne Room only makes me play BoM as two Villages because BoM IS Village the second time i play it - otherwise it would just be the card i chose from my hand, as TR tells me.  BoM gets trashed while resolving Feast the first time, so it's not Feast anymore, but Band of Misfits. Conclusion: When i am told to play "it" the second time, i play the card i chose, which now is NOT Feast anymore, but the card it originally was.

It makes sense that Procession can gain an Action costing 6$ after using it with BoM, but why does BoM return to itself when it's trashed the one time, and not the other? To make this even more clear, play Procession, choose BoM and use it as Feast. After you actually trash it, you still have to treat it as a Feast, but after resolving it the second time, you treat it as BoM again. To me, this makes no sense. Can somebody enlighten me?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 06:00:28 pm by Asper »
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Kirian

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2013, 06:03:20 pm »
+1

This is, I believe, a lose-track thing.  In the first case:

Play Throne Room; play Band of Misfits, choosing Feast.  Trash the BoM, gain a $5. Now, Throne Room looks for the card it was playing in the play area.  It's not there, so it can't realize it's not a Feast any longer.  It now duplicates the same action; there's no card to trash, so it just gains another $5.

In the second case:  Do all of the above, s/Throne Room/Procession.  THEN: Procession looks at the trash pile for the card it just trashing, which has turned into a BoM!  So, gain an action costing $6.
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AJD

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2013, 06:34:43 pm »
+1

This is, I believe, a lose-track thing.  In the first case:

Play Throne Room; play Band of Misfits, choosing Feast.  Trash the BoM, gain a $5. Now, Throne Room looks for the card it was playing in the play area.  It's not there, so it can't realize it's not a Feast any longer.  It now duplicates the same action; there's no card to trash, so it just gains another $5.

I like this explanation, but...

Quote
In the second case:  Do all of the above, s/Throne Room/Procession.  THEN: Procession looks at the trash pile for the card it just trashing, which has turned into a BoM!  So, gain an action costing $6.

...I think this bit falls apart if you Procession a Fortress.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2013, 06:50:37 pm »
+3

This is, I believe, a lose-track thing.  In the first case:

Play Throne Room; play Band of Misfits, choosing Feast.  Trash the BoM, gain a $5. Now, Throne Room looks for the card it was playing in the play area.  It's not there, so it can't realize it's not a Feast any longer.  It now duplicates the same action; there's no card to trash, so it just gains another $5.

In the second case:  Do all of the above, s/Throne Room/Procession.  THEN: Procession looks at the trash pile for the card it just trashing, which has turned into a BoM!  So, gain an action costing $6.

The lose-track rule only prevents a card from being moved.  I don't think it should have the effect you're describing.
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ftl

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2013, 06:56:21 pm »
+1

The thread from way back when at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4083.0 eventually became a six-page-long discussion of this very question. I don't think anyone came out of that with more understanding than they started with.

Throne room/BoM-as-Feast works the way it does. It just does.
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Donald X.

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 12:27:27 am »
+4

I read on the Strategy Wiki that if you play a Band of Misfits with Throne Room and use it as a Feast, you have to use it as a Feast both times. But why? Throne Room only makes me play BoM as two Villages because BoM IS Village the second time i play it - otherwise it would just be the card i chose from my hand, as TR tells me.  BoM gets trashed while resolving Feast the first time, so it's not Feast anymore, but Band of Misfits. Conclusion: When i am told to play "it" the second time, i play the card i chose, which now is NOT Feast anymore, but the card it originally was.
Throne on a Band as a one-shot has a special ruling, unique to that situation, and that special ruling is why it works that way, in the technical sense. And the reason for that ruling was that the rulebook didn't address it, and I wanted it to work like people would think it would, and the other option (not doing anything the second time) was crazy counterintuitive.

And so the ruling is that Throne "locks in" on what it's playing, which again only matters for Band. If Band is Feast the first time then Throne is Feasting again the second time, it is not looking at Band to see what Band is now.

It makes sense that Procession can gain an Action costing 6$ after using it with BoM, but why does BoM return to itself when it's trashed the one time, and not the other? To make this even more clear, play Procession, choose BoM and use it as Feast. After you actually trash it, you still have to treat it as a Feast, but after resolving it the second time, you treat it as BoM again. To me, this makes no sense. Can somebody enlighten me?
Procession gaining a card is a *separate step*. At that point we have finished playing the card and want to look at it. When we look at it it costs whatever it costs now.
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Asper

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 04:53:59 am »
0

I read on the Strategy Wiki that if you play a Band of Misfits with Throne Room and use it as a Feast, you have to use it as a Feast both times. But why? Throne Room only makes me play BoM as two Villages because BoM IS Village the second time i play it - otherwise it would just be the card i chose from my hand, as TR tells me.  BoM gets trashed while resolving Feast the first time, so it's not Feast anymore, but Band of Misfits. Conclusion: When i am told to play "it" the second time, i play the card i chose, which now is NOT Feast anymore, but the card it originally was.
Throne on a Band as a one-shot has a special ruling, unique to that situation, and that special ruling is why it works that way, in the technical sense. And the reason for that ruling was that the rulebook didn't address it, and I wanted it to work like people would think it would, and the other option (not doing anything the second time) was crazy counterintuitive.

And so the ruling is that Throne "locks in" on what it's playing, which again only matters for Band. If Band is Feast the first time then Throne is Feasting again the second time, it is not looking at Band to see what Band is now.

It makes sense that Procession can gain an Action costing 6$ after using it with BoM, but why does BoM return to itself when it's trashed the one time, and not the other? To make this even more clear, play Procession, choose BoM and use it as Feast. After you actually trash it, you still have to treat it as a Feast, but after resolving it the second time, you treat it as BoM again. To me, this makes no sense. Can somebody enlighten me?
Procession gaining a card is a *separate step*. At that point we have finished playing the card and want to look at it. When we look at it it costs whatever it costs now.
Thank you for the explanation, Donald. I guess what made me wonder about it in the first place was not Throne Room, but Procession. When i trash BoM played as a Woodcutter, i'm still trashing a Woodcutter, and so i'm trashing a card costing 3$, am i not? But well, as there already seems to have been a discussion about this, i'll just stick to what you say. Anyhow, we got a translation error in Procession where i live, so keeping the "Throne Room lock" in mind won't be that much of extra concern. :)
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Donald X.

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 05:26:46 am »
+1

Thank you for the explanation, Donald. I guess what made me wonder about it in the first place was not Throne Room, but Procession. When i trash BoM played as a Woodcutter, i'm still trashing a Woodcutter, and so i'm trashing a card costing 3$, am i not? But well, as there already seems to have been a discussion about this, i'll just stick to what you say. Anyhow, we got a translation error in Procession where i live, so keeping the "Throne Room lock" in mind won't be that much of extra concern. :)
Yes, you trashed a Woodcutter. If Procession went in the other order, it would see the cost of $3. It trashes the card first though, then checks the cost, and at that point the cost is $5. Ultimately the cards can't be little computer programs, but certain tricky interactions require having them be little computer programs, and you are left trying to figure out the very precise meaning of "it" or "that" or what have you. In this case the ruling is that "it" is the trashed card, and Procession wasn't looking at its cost before but does now, and sees that it costs $5.

The German translation error is on the big list and I expect will be fixed in future printings. Which will do you no good but well, we're fixing it anyway. And then there will be no clue that there's something else to know about Procession.
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Asper

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 06:10:04 am »
0

Thanks a lot, Donald :)
As a player i appreciate that, even though you thought all the rules through so well, you'd still explain them. I guess i can't even grasp how much work Dominion was to do from scratch. Thanks.
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Jeebus

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 08:20:32 am »
+1

The thread from way back when at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4083.0 eventually became a six-page-long discussion of this very question. I don't think anyone came out of that with more understanding than they started with.
Yes, we did. :)
The conclusion was that the second time you play BoM-as-Feast you would get nothing, because the BoM is not in play at all that time (as per the card text "this is that card until it leaves play"). This was so counter-intuitive that no-one in the discussion thought about from the beginning. So as Donald said, he made a special ruling.

Asper

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 09:36:05 am »
0

The thread from way back when at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4083.0 eventually became a six-page-long discussion of this very question. I don't think anyone came out of that with more understanding than they started with.
Yes, we did. :)
The conclusion was that the second time you play BoM-as-Feast you would get nothing, because the BoM is not in play at all that time (as per the card text "this is that card until it leaves play"). This was so counter-intuitive that no-one in the discussion thought about from the beginning. So as Donald said, he made a special ruling.

You make it seem as there was a rule saying a card cannot be played when it is in the trash or, in general, not in play. I don't remember such a rule. In fact, every Action card on my hand is "not in play", so according to your reasoning, i could not play it. The fact that BoM is not in play has the effect that it is BoM again. It has nothing to do with whether you can play it. To me it was obvious that the trash did not hinder me playing a card, which was why i never found something wrong with TR-ing a Feast. On the other hand, this was what made me think BoM should be playable as two different cards when played as a one-shot in the first place. Only one thing i know for sure: The fact that a card is not in play doesn't keep me from playing it, and so i see no reason being in the trash should forbid it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 09:39:10 am by Asper »
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Donald X.

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 10:07:49 am »
+1

You make it seem as there was a rule saying a card cannot be played when it is in the trash or, in general, not in play.
That's not it. It's that Band of Misfits immediately stops being the card you played it as in that situation, because of the text on Band of Misfits itself.
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Asper

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 11:13:49 am »
0

You make it seem as there was a rule saying a card cannot be played when it is in the trash or, in general, not in play.
That's not it. It's that Band of Misfits immediately stops being the card you played it as in that situation, because of the text on Band of Misfits itself.

I understand that, Donald. What i wanted to say was that what hinders BoM to be played as itself after being trashed is not that it's trashed, but that TR "locks in" and therefore doesn't allow such a change. Jeebus seemed to imply the first thing with his post:

Yes, we did. :)
The conclusion was that the second time you play BoM-as-Feast you would get nothing, because the BoM is not in play at all that time [...]

Even without the TR-Lock the second play would not be "nothing", would it? A Throned Feast is played as two Feasts, too - no matter it gets trashed inbetween. So BoM would still be played, and only the lock hinders it to be played as BoM again once it's trashed.

...

Right...?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 11:21:04 am by Asper »
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enfynet

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2013, 11:43:46 am »
+1

I'll be honest: even though I accept the ruling that TR locks on whatever BoM said first, it makes more sense to me that TR locks in on BoM and plays "whatever this card is" twice. The ONLY time this matters is on one-shot cards like Feast and Embargo, but when those are trashed they're no longer in play, so BoM is no longer locked in. However, BoM is in the trash now, so it can't lock onto anything because it's no longer "while in play" and therefore can't be anything.

And therefore?

A witch!...

I mean, therefore we let TR play that same action again, because it's better than letting BoM sit in the trash with no use at all.

(this means BoM as Fortress becomes a BoM again after being trashed and returned to your hand)
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Asper

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2013, 12:03:53 pm »
0

I'll be honest: even though I accept the ruling that TR locks on whatever BoM said first, it makes more sense to me that TR locks in on BoM and plays "whatever this card is" twice. The ONLY time this matters is on one-shot cards like Feast and Embargo, but when those are trashed they're no longer in play, so BoM is no longer locked in. However, BoM is in the trash now, so it can't lock onto anything because it's no longer "while in play" and therefore can't be anything.

And therefore?

A witch!...

I mean, therefore we let TR play that same action again, because it's better than letting BoM sit in the trash with no use at all.

(this means BoM as Fortress becomes a BoM again after being trashed and returned to your hand)
First of all, +1 for the witch.

I'm not sure, but we probably agree that with your ruling BoM would not lock-out of TR only because it gets trashed. It would still be locked as the card chosen for TR to double-play, as it's the card i chose from my hand.

It would stop being the card you played it as, though, and would never again become another card (than BoM), as long as it is in the trash (and therefore not "in play"). But: You still could play BoM a second time, choosing a card. And you could play it as any cheaper card in the supply. You would not get any "while this in in play" benefits, as BoM doesn't become the impersonated card, but you could play it as it. This means any +2$, +2Cards, attacks, etc would still happen. That's not "nothing".
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 12:19:11 pm by Asper »
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Donald X.

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2013, 12:27:20 pm »
+1

Even without the TR-Lock the second play would not be "nothing", would it? A Throned Feast is played as two Feasts, too - no matter it gets trashed inbetween. So BoM would still be played, and only the lock hinders it to be played as BoM again once it's trashed.
You can look at the other thread for the arguments from that time; my position hasn't changed. Throne / Band has a special-case ruling that makes Throne lock in; it's an interpretation of how Throne works. *Without* that ruling Band would do nothing the second time.
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enfynet

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2013, 02:20:48 pm »
+1

Even without the TR-Lock the second play would not be "nothing", would it? A Throned Feast is played as two Feasts, too - no matter it gets trashed inbetween. So BoM would still be played, and only the lock hinders it to be played as BoM again once it's trashed.
You can look at the other thread for the arguments from that time; my position hasn't changed. Throne / Band has a special-case ruling that makes Throne lock in; it's an interpretation of how Throne works. *Without* that ruling Band would do nothing the second time.
I'm not disagreeing with your position, just stating that when I first read it, it made sense to me that Band returned to doing nothing from the Trash as it's no longer in play. (This is that card until it leaves play.)  But for purposes of continuity with other one-shot cards working with TR, I have no problem with Band being played under those rules when designated as those cards. (Feast, Embargo, Mining Village, etc)

Unfortunately, even if it weighed the same as a duck, it still could not be... a Witch.
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Jeebus

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2013, 06:40:00 pm »
+1

You make it seem as there was a rule saying a card cannot be played when it is in the trash or, in general, not in play.
That's not it. It's that Band of Misfits immediately stops being the card you played it as in that situation, because of the text on Band of Misfits itself.

I understand that, Donald. What i wanted to say was that what hinders BoM to be played as itself after being trashed is not that it's trashed, but that TR "locks in" and therefore doesn't allow such a change. Jeebus seemed to imply the first thing with his post:

Yes, we did. :)
The conclusion was that the second time you play BoM-as-Feast you would get nothing, because the BoM is not in play at all that time [...]

Even without the TR-Lock the second play would not be "nothing", would it? A Throned Feast is played as two Feasts, too - no matter it gets trashed inbetween. So BoM would still be played, and only the lock hinders it to be played as BoM again once it's trashed.

I was saying what Donald is saying in his reply to you, which I think you misunderstood (even though you said you understood it). Without the special ruling (that TR locks in the card), you would indeed get nothing the second time. The reason is not that you can't play the BoM the second time, when it's in trash. You can, and you even get to choose a card. But it doesn't do you any good, because the last clause on BoM means it will never be that card, since it's not in play. This means you can't play it as that card. If a card isn't a Smithy, you can't play it as a Smithy. That's the conclusion. In your last post you get a little deeper into the intricacies of "playing a card" and what a a card "is". I suggest you read the whole other thread, because pretty much everything is dealt with there.

Asper

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Re: Feast, Throne Room and Band of Misfits - why?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2013, 07:03:29 pm »
+1

I was saying what Donald is saying in his reply to you, which I think you misunderstood (even though you said you understood it). Without the special ruling (that TR locks in the card), you would indeed get nothing the second time. The reason is not that you can't play the BoM the second time, when it's in trash. You can, and you even get to choose a card. But it doesn't do you any good, because the last clause on BoM means it will never be that card, since it's not in play. This means you can't play it as that card. If a card isn't a Smithy, you can't play it as a Smithy. That's the conclusion. In your last post you get a little deeper into the intricacies of "playing a card" and what a a card "is". I suggest you read the whole other thread, because pretty much everything is dealt with there.

Well, maybe i really got it wrong. To me, the first part of the card - "Play this as if it was..." was enough for it to actually have an effect. If a card has to be a Smithy to be played as one, of course it makes sense that it doesn't. I was not aware that this is the case. So i'll just read the other Thread instead of clogging this one up with questions that were allready discussed, then. Thanks for the patience :)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 07:05:01 pm by Asper »
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