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[Jimmmmm]

Okay. I haven't been into Dominion that long (a couple of months maybe), and I've been posting a fair bit after I've played what I've thought was a particularly fun or interesting game, and my thoughts on it, from a "hey this was fun or cool" perspective, rather than "here is some strategy advice". Now, I'm certainly no expert, and I don't pretend to be (I'm currently level 24 on Isotropic). I've found that the response I've received has generally been along the lines of

a) That's obvious, this has been discussed, here's the link; or
b) That's not the dominant strategy. This is the dominant strategy.

Now my question is, is this supposed to be an elitist forum for experienced Dominion players to share their knowledge with us mere level-30-or-less players, in which case I'll STHU and let the people who know what they're talking about talk, or is it supposed to be a place where players of all skill and experience levels can share the enjoyment they get out of Dominion without worrying about whether their strategies are 100% simulation-proved best, dominant and optimal strategies that have never been discussed here or anywhere else?

I'm sorry if this comes across as annoyed, I just love talking about Dominion, but I don't like getting the impression that what I have to say is either obvious or not optimal enough and either way better left unsaid.

[guided]

I'm not really sure what you're saying. Maybe that you don't want advice on how to play better?

[jsh357]

I honestly feel about the same. (which is why I post so little, although I read a lot of posts here--I feel like I have nothing to contribute even though I'm crazy about the game) That said, it's really not abnormal for "pro" players to be inhabiting forums like this, so I wouldn't take it to heart.  Even in games I'd consider extremely casual like Super Smash Bros, there are always people who take it a step beyond on the net, and might not realize they are coming off as elitists when they disregard the thoughts of newer players vocally.  Playing the game IRL has been, for me, a far more casual experience.

I'm not really sure what you're saying. Maybe that you don't want advice on how to play better?

If this wasn't a joke, it's exactly the kind of post the OP is talking about.  If someone said that to me in real life I'd kick him in the balls.  He said in the post he was interested in reading about strategy; what he doesn't like is the dismissive attitude of the 'experts.'   Dominion is not an exclusive club, bro. 

[Thisisnotasmile]

I hover around the level 25-28 mark on Isotropic. I'm the third most active poster on these forums. I haven't felt like my opinion isn't wanted once since I've been here (although I have once been told explicitly that it wasn't wanted, and in which case I responded with a simple "I don't care, I'm giving my opinion anyway"). If you want to discuss things, discuss them. Remember though, that this is a forum about the discussion of Dominion strategy. Of course people are going to try to work out what the dominant strategy in any situation is.

As for links to past threads, I do that. And I will continue to do it. If you (not specifically you, but people in general) want to talk about the KC/Goons/Masquearde pin or using Golem to play a double Tactician turn, you can do it in the thread that already exists for talking about the KC/Goons/Masquerade pin or using Golem to play a double Tactician turn. Why do you need to create a new one? Usually it's because you didn't know the thread already existed, and in which case you may be interested in what people already said about it since... you know... you created a thread to discuss it. If you don't care what other people have to say about it, why bother posting in the first place?

[Kuildeous]

It can be rather easy for devoted fans to read and learn so much about the topic that they become numb to the discoveries that other players have.

I'd like to think I'm not elitist, if only because I'm not elbows-deep into the percentages like some of the experts are. Still, I've been around enough to not be surprised. If someone comes along and says, "Guys, I found out that you could buy Peddlers for free and Expand them into Colonies!" I'm going to nod my head, but I didn't learn anything new. That doesn't change the fact that for this person, he made an exciting discovery.

Though, I am not the type of person to post, "Yeah, yeah, that's been discovered the first day Prosperity came out." I may shrug off the exciting new discovery since it's not that exciting to me anymore, but I won't piss in your Cheerios about it.

I can see where you're coming from. Some posts can be taken as being dismissive. This is especially true if you came up with a neat combo of your own. You want acknowledgement of that clever thinking. It's not your fault that people who play the game several hours a day (a hyperbole, or is it?) have beaten you to the punch.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not one of the people you're pointing out, but I do apologize regardless. The only thing I can say is that it's the internet. People of varying degrees of expertise gather here. Also, the busy nature of people can tend to make them more terse than usual, especially if they don't have anything new to contribute. Some days you just have to shrug them off.

[rinkworks]

I feel the same way sometimes.  It doesn't bother me, although it does temper the sorts of posts I make here.  Like you, I love reading about strategy and thinking about the mathematical aspect of the game.

But that's just a piece of why I love Dominion.  Another reason I love Dominion is that cards like Treasure Map, mathematics be damned, is a fun card to play.  Trying to make it hit but never quite knowing when it will -- and then the rush when it does.  I feel like a lot of the people here are jaded to the inherent joy of the process of the game.  Or maybe it's just that the analytical aspect of the game (again, which I also hugely appreciate) is more what the regulars here are interested in.  Which is fine.   Anyway, I've recognized that you have a lot of the same enthusiasm that I do, and I appreciate that.

Whether a cause or effect, I can't help but think that isotropic is a factor here.  I've played a little Dominion online (not on isotropic), and although it's recognizably the same game, it's a totally different experience.  The therapeutic aspect of manipulating physical cards is missing, and the social component (shared experience of the twists of the game, like the activation of those Treasure Maps) is severely muted.  In the absence of those things, the mathematical side of the game becomes much more dominant.

I've been mulling over a "top 10 coolest cards" thread, where the single criterion for inclusion on the list would be only how fun it is to play -- nothing at all about strategy.  Maybe it's time to do that.

[Geronimoo]

Honestly, if you're more into casual play, this isn't really the forum for you. This is indeed the place for people who are taking the game a step beyond (and to a lot of people a step too far). But this is also the only place on the web where you'll find the best players (in the world?) discussing strategy.
And if someone makes a dismissive remark of your post, don't worry, he's probably not as good as he thinks he is (guided being the  exception)

[Thisisnotasmile]

Honestly, if you're more into casual play, this isn't really the forum for you. This is indeed the place for people who are taking the game a step beyond (and to a lot of people a step too far). But this is also the only place on the web where you'll find the best players (in the world?) discussing strategy.
And if someone makes a dismissive remark of your post, don't worry, he's probably not as good as he thinks he is (guided being the  exception)

I don't know why I lol'd so hard at that. It's true though.

[Jimmmmm]

As for links to past threads, I do that. And I will continue to do it. If you (not specifically you, but people in general) want to talk about the KC/Goons/Masquearde pin or using Golem to play a double Tactician turn, you can do it in the thread that already exists for talking about the KC/Goons/Masquerade pin or using Golem to play a double Tactician turn. Why do you need to create a new one? Usually it's because you didn't know the thread already existed, and in which case you may be interested in what people already said about it since... you know... you created a thread to discuss it. If you don't care what other people have to say about it, why bother posting in the first place?

I've read about the KC/G/M pin. If I was to start a thread about it, it would be in Game Reports and it would be because I just played a game in which it featured that I thought other people might want to look at. Maybe my opponent bought 7 Provinces and then I trashed them all and won by a handful of VP tokens. What kind of response I would want? Honestly, I don't know. But if the response is simply "It's been talked about, here's the link.", well, I just played an amazing game of Dominion, but I should have kept it to myself, because there have been other amazing games of Dominion? I don't know, maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. I guess also, it doesn't feel right to tack my "game report" onto the end of a discussion that may have ended months ago. But maybe that's what I should do, and maybe I will.

[DG]

There could be any number of reasons why people are responding to your posts Jimmmmm. Whilst you're interested in one aspect of a game, someone else could be interested in another aspect. They're as entitled to post their response as you are to post your thread in the first place. Someone else can post a response to a response, put up a new game link, and if that interests someone else then more unrelated responses may follow. You don't own the thread, or even the game history, once you've put it into the public domain.

When you post up game logs, even for fun, it's the nature of many Dominion players to look at the game and think "How would I have played that?". This often leads to the responses you see. If you're a fun player then you probably don't need to be worried about how other people would have played the hand. The story of your game remains the same.

There's also the nature of internet posting to consider. If someone likes your thread they read it and close the page. The only people who will respond are people who can see something different in your game that you haven't mentioned. Perhaps if the forums had "thumbs up" icons for the gratification of all concerned then the world would be a happier place. Until then I'm glad we don't have many posts of "Yo Dude Cool Game LOLZ!"

[Jimmmmm]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not questioning anyone's entitlement to say whatever they like. I just seem to be sensing the general attitude of "if it's not new or the best, don't tell us about it", and was wondering if this is what people actually think and I should wait until I'm more experienced before trying to contribute to these boards.

[guided]

I just seem to be sensing the general attitude of "if it's not new or the best, don't tell us about it"

You're reading an attitude that isn't there I think. Has anyone actually told you to stop posting about the discoveries you're making?

I was genuinely puzzled about the purpose of this thread when I posted initially. Either it served no purpose other than venting, or you were suggesting the other members of the forum should refrain from discussing strategy in response to your posts. My suggestion to you is that you either take the strategy advice you're getting to heart, or if you're not interested in that at least try not to read into it as a personal slight to you when somebody gives strategy advice. DG has the right of it: when you make a thread, you can reasonably expect to set the topic, but it's not your prerogative to squelch discussion related to that topic.

The name of the forum is "Dominion Strategy", and it should be no surprise if game reports lead to a more in-depth discussion of strategy related to that game or board.

[Brando Commando]

I think part of the problem is the way forums -- and maybe the Internet -- are organized. It isn't transparent what has been done to death and what's fresh, because the sheer size of what's been discussed is hard to grasp unless you're willing to read everything.

[DG]

I just seem to be sensing the general attitude of "if it's not new or the best, don't tell us about it", and was wondering if this is what people actually think and I should wait until I'm more experienced before trying to contribute to these boards.

Not really. If you look at this nice game report from guided http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=691.0 he's only got two responses, neither particularly relevant to his play. The comments were just other things that people found interesting that they wanted to post about. So keep posting, people will be happy, but don't expect congratulations and accolades. It's an internet forum after all.

[ackack]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not questioning anyone's entitlement to say whatever they like. I just seem to be sensing the general attitude of "if it's not new or the best, don't tell us about it", and was wondering if this is what people actually think and I should wait until I'm more experienced before trying to contribute to these boards.

Even if is new, there will still generally be posturing of the sort you talk about. (Look at how dismissive better players were of KC/Goons/Masq when it was first found.) At this point in the existence of this forum, a lot of people seem motivated to establish themselves as King Nerd. I do it too. It gets tedious fast. That said, people have played a lot of Dominion, and it's very hard to find anything that's going to be truly novel with the existing cards. This effect is enhanced when the person posting is not perceived to be a Very Important Player.

So yeah, you're not likely to get many pats on the back. I think if you post stuff and explicitly disclaim that you just think it's cool and not some sort of super optimal best deck ever, your results would improve somewhat on that front. But I wouldn't expect much change, overall. In general, the people who post here with any regularity are likely to be obsessives who are interested in being as good as possible, and the main thing to do with any post is try to understand what is actually best.

[ChaosRed]

I'm a total noob, played only about 30 games on isotropic and I think I am like level 3 or something on there. I can tell you, that not only have I felt welcome here, but I have received nothing but encouragement and interesting discussion on every thread I've been part of.

There are indeed very knowledgeable players here, but they've always treated me with respect and offered nothing but good advice.

This isn't an elitist forum in the least, not in my limited experience here anyway.

[WanderingWinder]

I assume that on any kingdom, I want to find the optimal strategy. That's just what I do. That's the point of the game (to me - I mean, the point is to have fun, but why is it fun - to compete against other people to find the best strategy, just like why chess is fun). If you really don't want this... well, it's probably not the forum for you. If you want people to think something is new and cool, that's fine. Just don't necessarily expect us to think it's new and cool too, especially if you're posting something like a KC/Goons/Masq game where the combo one - I've seen one, I've seen most of them. If you think yours is different, explain why. The situation you posted just isn't. It's definitely exciting when you play it, but it's not substantively different from an analytical perspective. Now if you beat the combo.... that's something new. People like new stuff.
Now, you can look and see that I'm not the biggest guided apologist, but I'm with him here. If you don't want serious analytical advice, this is quite possibly not the place for you. And I really have to repeat "What do you want?" Because if you don't know, how are we supposed to give it to you? I mean, we're doing what comes naturally to us, and you apparently don't like it. But you also presumably don't want nothing in response, and I assume you don't really want 1-line "That's cool." responses either. That seems pretty pointless. So while I understand how you can be excited about some game you've just played, it's just really difficult to get someone else as excited about something that they didn't participate it.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, I think I'm just crappy at getting my point across, and I'm not doing any better here. And I guess on things like these, people fixate on what they want to fixate on and that's that. My point was not "Why don't people pat me on the back?" My point was "Should I keep trying to contribute if all I'm going to get is 'been there, done that'?" Emphasis on "Should I keep trying to contribute?" And I guess, somewhat ironically, I have my answer.

Anyway. This thread's just going to go round in circles if it continues. I'm sorry I started it. I stand by what I said, but I should have anticipated the result. No hard feelings, I didn't mean to have a go at anyone. Dominion's awesome, and I think this is a great site.

Peace out.

[DStu]

Okay, I think I'm just crappy at getting my point across, and I'm not doing any better here. And I guess on things like these, people fixate on what they want to fixate on and that's that. My point was not "Why don't people pat me on the back?" My point was "Should I keep trying to contribute if all I'm going to get is 'been there, done that'?" Emphasis on "Should I keep trying to contribute?" And I guess, somewhat ironically, I have my answer.

If you think the answer is no, either you or I have mistaken most of the posts. But I think it's you.

Despite I maybe came to late to the party, here are my thoughts: Haven't looked up your history, but often people complain about getting a unusefull reply, instead of just ignoring it. Wait a little longer, the guy who want's to write something usefull possibly just need a little more time than the guy who just wants to make a bad joke. Starting to discuss "how nobody on this forums is helpfull (in these posts, not here)" just let the guys who just want to be helpfull start defending the forums (instead of writing something helpfull), and the whole thread get's a mess. Think I've seen this (and contributed) a couple of times.
So this is the internetz, and not everybody will be friendly. Get over it.

And I also don't think that posts like "that has been discussed before in this thread" are posts like "stfu". but like "that has been discussed before in this thread, maybe you would like to contribute there. Or are interested in what's written there." In most cases, the person has even contributed to this thread, and certainly don't want (and can't) write everything that he has written there again.
   

[rrenaud]

Having just looked through some of your recent posts, I found this was particularly good,

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=683.msg9474#msg9474

and they were all reasonable.

Other than a small rash of recent hostile posts brewing (none of them involved you), I am pretty happy with how the community is behaving.  Compare it to some of the non-sense on the Dominion BGG forum, and I'll happy take a bit of noob hostility to squelch some of the idiotic crap.  Indeed that general attitude was why theory started dominionstrategy in the first place.  This is not to say that you've actually posted anything bad at all.  The "we discussed this here", or "this move is dominated by that one" are both reasonable responses, and I don't think you should feel rejected just because someone posted something like that.

If I could change one thing about the f.ds "culture", I'd have people play more games (in a this is for the science of Dominion way, not in an "I am definitely the best player and you are totally wrong way") when they have disagreements, and then post thoughtful analysis after trying things out.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

I have a love-hate relationship with internet boards in general.  It is a double-edged sword.  On one hand, I remember when I started playing Magic I had to actually buy books to learn advanced strategy.  Forums are great for the readily available resources.  On the other hand, almost every forum I have frequented has had a large population of trolls.  I am a lurker at heart, and I would have long since stopped posting here if it were not for the positive feedback I have received in game.

My yard stick is to ask myself, is this person adding something constructive or just nitpicking or starting arguments to no purpose?  And my rule of thumb is do not feed the trolls.  You will get in an argument you cannot possibly win.

[Davio]

Honestly, if you're more into casual play, this isn't really the forum for you. This is indeed the place for people who are taking the game a step beyond (and to a lot of people a step too far). But this is also the only place on the web where you'll find the best players (in the world?) discussing strategy.
And if someone makes a dismissive remark of your post, don't worry, he's probably not as good as he thinks he is (guided being the  exception)

I disagree.

While in practice this forum hosts more players that have strolled past the basics, I don't see why it shouldn't offer a platform for casual players looking to just have fun with the game. If one casual player finds this board, more could follow and they could have fun amongst each other and eventually move up to the higher echelons if they so wish.