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[Lettukastike]

Worth 3$

Now and at the beginning of your next turn:
1$
Each other player discards a card

[soulnet]

Discard without constraint is too powerfull. Play this every turn and it is equal to playing Militia every turn, only it costs 3 instead of 4 and you may need extra copies if you are drawing a lot.

However, play 2 of this every turn (which is not so rare) and you leave your opponent with a hand of 1 card per turn. If you play 3 or more every turn, you locked out your opponent. You should either have a cap on how much can be discarded (each other player with at least X cards in hand discards a card) or give an option to avoid discarding a la Torturer, or some other way of avoiding a complete lock-out.

[Lettukastike]

Discard without constraint is too powerfull. Play this every turn and it is equal to playing Militia every turn, only it costs 3 instead of 4 and you may need extra copies if you are drawing a lot.

However, play 2 of this every turn (which is not so rare) and you leave your opponent with a hand of 1 card per turn. If you play 3 or more every turn, you locked out your opponent. You should either have a cap on how much can be discarded (each other player with at least X cards in hand discards a card) or give an option to avoid discarding a la Torturer, or some other way of avoiding a complete lock-out.

That's true. I guess "each other player with at least 4 cards discards a card" would do the trick.

[Asper]

I allready tried to point out the problems with an attack-duration here:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6939.0
The most important thing here is the danger of defense confusion. Imagine someone to reveal a Moat on the turn you played this. Are you sure everybody will remember he revealed it last turn, when your next turn comes and everybody needs to discard again? How about games with Library, where people sometimes will not reveal a reaction - "It's there in my discard, so i probably had it in hand last turn... But wait, there's a Library too, so did i actually use the Moat? I'm sure i reacted to Peters Siege, but i don't know anymore about yours, Jack..." We all are of course able to remember things, but as soon as one person forgets it, our six-player-Moat-and-Library game becomes an argument. Cards "loose track" because something unexpected happens, and "remembering" doesn't solve that, so no, remembering won't do the trick. If you really insist on doing an attack-duration, you probably need to use a token or something to mark "hit" players - and that quickly becomes a wall of text just not worth it, especially if the card is actually a half Militia.

I like that you tried to do something "different", though.

[ahyangyi]

I think the solution here is make Siege cause two attacks, not one.

It could be:


Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
If played this card from your hand, you may set aside this card. If you do, play this card again at the beginning of your next turn.

(By the way, if a card lets you play a card, said playing doesn't cost actions. This is how Throne Rooms work)

[enfynet]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

At the start of your next turn: +1 Card
------
While this is in play, each player (including you) draws no more than 4 cards during his Clean-up phase.

[AJD]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
If played this card from your hand, you may set aside this card. If you do, play this card again at the beginning of your next turn.

So... if you Throne Room this, it attacks twice now, and once at the beginning of your next turn. Right?

[AJD]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

At the start of your next turn: +1 Card
------
While this is in play, each player (including you) draws no more than 4 cards during his Clean-up phase.

That has the same problems, doesn't it? Someone, during their next clean-up phase, will be like "Now, when you played that, did I Moat it?"

[ahyangyi]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
If played this card from your hand, you may set aside this card. If you do, play this card again at the beginning of your next turn.

So... if you Throne Room this, it attacks twice now, and once at the beginning of your next turn. Right?

Yes.

[AJD]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
If played this card from your hand, you may set aside this card. If you do, play this card again at the beginning of your next turn.

So... if you Throne Room this, it attacks twice now, and once at the beginning of your next turn. Right?

Yes.

And if you Procession it, it (probably) doesn't get trashed.

[ahyangyi]

What about removing the "You may" part, so Throne Room and KC cannot repeat its effect at all, and Procession benefit less from it?
By playing Procession -- Siege, you only get the full effect of Siege, used 1 action, and get a card. Basically it's like playing an Ironworks instead of Procession.

[AJD]

What about removing the "You may" part, so Throne Room and KC cannot repeat its effect at all, and Procession benefit less from it?

I'm not sure what you mean here. If you remove the "you may" and Throne Room it, it still attacks twice this turn and once next turn; and if you Procession it, it still does all of that plus it gains you a $4 action without trashing Siege.

[ahyangyi]

I thought Procession loose track of it and cannot play it the second time, in the same way Procession cannot trash it.

But heck, even feast gets played twice. Therefore, I was wrong.

[enfynet]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

At the start of your next turn: +1 Card
------
While this is in play, each player (including you) draws no more than 4 cards during his Clean-up phase.

That has the same problems, doesn't it? Someone, during their next clean-up phase, will be like "Now, when you played that, did I Moat it?"

I guess that depends how reactions work with the card text under the line. We haven't had one that affects other players yet.

[AJD]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

At the start of your next turn: +1 Card
------
While this is in play, each player (including you) draws no more than 4 cards during his Clean-up phase.

That has the same problems, doesn't it? Someone, during their next clean-up phase, will be like "Now, when you played that, did I Moat it?"

I guess that depends how reactions work with the card text under the line. We haven't had one that affects other players yet.

True! But Moat says "you are unaffected by that Attack", so it seems to me that anything written on the Attack card can be blocked by it.

[Asper]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

At the start of your next turn: +1 Card
------
While this is in play, each player (including you) draws no more than 4 cards during his Clean-up phase.

That has the same problems, doesn't it? Someone, during their next clean-up phase, will be like "Now, when you played that, did I Moat it?"

I guess that depends how reactions work with the card text under the line. We haven't had one that affects other players yet.

True! But Moat says "you are unaffected by that Attack", so it seems to me that anything written on the Attack card can be blocked by it.

That's not the problem, the problem is how to prove you blocked it. All attacks that exist have their effect when they are played, so no tracking issue. If my Grandfather (who, for this example, is supposed to be really bad at remembering things) plays a Witch, i counter it with Moat. He forgets it instantly and says: "Gain a curse, boy!" I simply reveal the Moat again, he mumbles, and draws his cards. Defense successful. This is not possible with Siege. If he forgot it, there's no way for me to prove i revealed Moat before. Of course, i wouldn't be affected. But that doesn't help, cause he can't remember. You have to think of my Grandpa when designing cards - he's an old man, you know...

[AJD]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

At the start of your next turn: +1 Card
------
While this is in play, each player (including you) draws no more than 4 cards during his Clean-up phase.

That has the same problems, doesn't it? Someone, during their next clean-up phase, will be like "Now, when you played that, did I Moat it?"

I guess that depends how reactions work with the card text under the line. We haven't had one that affects other players yet.

True! But Moat says "you are unaffected by that Attack", so it seems to me that anything written on the Attack card can be blocked by it.

That's not the problem, the problem is how to prove you blocked it.

Yes, that was my point. It's clear to me that, according to the rules, Moat would block the text under the line, which causes potentially intolerable tracking problems. The interaction with Lighthouse is even more confusing.

[enfynet]

Each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

At the start of your next turn: +1 Card
------
While this is in play, each player (including you) draws no more than 4 cards during his Clean-up phase.

That has the same problems, doesn't it? Someone, during their next clean-up phase, will be like "Now, when you played that, did I Moat it?"

I guess that depends how reactions work with the card text under the line. We haven't had one that affects other players yet.

True! But Moat says "you are unaffected by that Attack", so it seems to me that anything written on the Attack card can be blocked by it.

This one gets even weirder because of the lower half. You can't "Moat" your own hand because the "Attack" was not played by "another player." If the card says "Attack" on the bottom, it triggers all sorts of weird things. The only real way to do it is make the "Duration" part NOT affect the other players.

[Asper]

Yes, that was my point. It's clear to me that, according to the rules, Moat would block the text under the line, which causes potentially intolerable tracking problems. The interaction with Lighthouse is even more confusing.

Oops, mistook your post for someone complaining why it shouldn't work. You're right, of course.

This one gets even weirder because of the lower half. You can't "Moat" your own hand because the "Attack" was not played by "another player." If the card says "Attack" on the bottom, it triggers all sorts of weird things. The only real way to do it is make the "Duration" part NOT affect the other players.

What you can actually do, as i said earlier, is to give out Tokens, as Embargo does. Like:

Siege
+ 1$
Every player discards cards until he has 4 cards in hand.
Each player gains a Siege Token, putting it in front of him. Every time a player who has a Siege Token ends his cleanup phase, he discards down to 4 cards and removes all Siege Tokens he has.
---------------------------
At the beginning of your next turn:
+1$ Action - Attack - Duration

Actually Duration is not needed for the attack, and i know it's a bit different than your original card in edge cases (Council Room). But it's after the rules and works.
(Still giving out Tokens for one-time use is not really pretty, but it's as good as it gets.)