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[AJD]

So, the well-known fact about building engines with Potion-costing cards is that you have to buy a Potion to get them, and then once you've got all the engine components you need you've got this dead card hanging around that doesn't help you buy Provinces. But another fact about Potion-costing engines is that no Potion-costing engine components actually give +$. The only Potion-costing card that gives +$ is Philosopher's Stone, which isn't a good card for engines and thus doesn't interact well with other Potion-costing cards. So Potion delays your Province-buying power in two ways: it's not only a card which doesn't give you coin, it doesn't even help you get cards that provide coin. Getting too caught up in using your Potion to buy Potion-costing engine components can leave you with a brilliant engine that draws your deck but still only has $7 worth of payoff. So that's another strategic consideration in the use of Potions, which I haven't seen pointed out much.

[carstimon]

So, the well-known fact about building engines with Potion-costing cards is that you have to buy a Potion to get them

Obligatory special case observation: jester.

[eHalcyon]

So, the well-known fact about building engines with Potion-costing cards is that you have to buy a Potion to get them

Obligatory special case observation: jester.

And Squire...

[Watno]

and Thief for the Philosophers stone engine

[Insomniac]

So, the well-known fact about building engines with Potion-costing cards is that you have to buy a Potion to get them

Obligatory special case observation: jester.

And Squire...

How does Squire acquire potions?

EDIT: NM you are talking about gaining attack cards with potion in their cost.

[rrenaud]

dominionstrategystrategy.com article #1

When you make strategy posts, the most important thing is to not be wrong on any corner cases, and then secondarily make an interesting or useful strategic point.

[pedroluchini]

I can't remember if it's mentioned elsewhere, but I've found that one of the coolest ways that Apprentice fits into Alchemy is that you can use it to trash the Potion itself for +4 cards.

[jomini]

Let us also not forget about:
Masquerade


Also the Squire or Jester case can allow us to build to other potion cost cards with Develop to go down (gaining say University) and all of the remodel family to go up (Golem, Possession) or sideways (Alchemist).


In any event, sure if you buy nothing but potion cards you max out at 7. However that is true with a LOT of cards, less than 1/3 of the cards in Dominion give coin. For some boards you really don't need more treasure than 8, the infamous Nv/Apothecary combo comes to mind as an obvious way to run a potion setup without buy much in the way of cards. Another option would be Farmland, setup a strong drawing engine with Apothecary/Golem/Familiar/Apprentice and pound the Farmland and Provinces. In like manner, most of the other Alt-VP have some potion setup that doesn't require any more coin than your starting 7. The bigger trap with potion cards is not that you forget to buy to cash, but that you overbuy the potion cards when you really, really need something else - a second or third golem is often far worse than buying that Pawn you've put off but that gives you the +buy. Opportunity cost gets a bit hoary with potion cards (hey I won't get another chance at this for 2 turns) so you can easily blow a game either by skipping the potion cost card this time or by not skipping it (and say grabbing a +buy).

[Donald X.]

Okay let's see. The table has Black Market and nine cards with Potion in the cost. The last one, Transmute, is in the Black Market deck, where my opponent gets it.

My opponent uses Ambassador to give me the Transmute. I Remodel it into Apothecary, then Procession the Apothecary into Alchemist. I use Thief to get his Philosopher's Stone, and Junk Dealer my Squire to get a Familiar. He passes me a Golem via Masquerade, then hits it with a Saboteur, so I take a Scrying Pool to replace it. Then he hits the Scrying Pool with Swindler and gives me a University. Luckily I hit his Possession with my Jester, taking a copy, then when I play Possession I use his turn to buy a Vineyard.

[AJD]

Okay let's see. The table has Black Market and nine cards with Potion in the cost. The last one, Transmute, is in the Black Market deck, where my opponent gets it.

My opponent uses Ambassador to give me the Transmute. I Remodel it into Apothecary, then Procession the Apothecary into Alchemist. I use Thief to get his Philosopher's Stone, and Junk Dealer my Squire to get a Familiar. He passes me a Golem via Masquerade, then hits it with a Saboteur, so I take a Scrying Pool to replace it. Then he hits the Scrying Pool with Swindler and gives me a University. Luckily I hit his Possession with my Jester, taking a copy, then when I play Possession I use his turn to buy a Vineyard.

This is delightful, except I think Golem, Philosopher's Stone, or Vineyard has to be the one in the Black Market deck for the story to work.

[Axxle]

Okay let's see. The table has Black Market and nine cards with Potion in the cost. The last one, Transmute, is in the Black Market deck, where my opponent gets it.

My opponent uses Ambassador to give me the Transmute. I Remodel it into Apothecary, then Procession the Apothecary into Alchemist. I use Thief to get his Philosopher's Stone, and Junk Dealer my Squire to get a Familiar. He passes me a Golem via Masquerade, then hits it with a Saboteur, so I take a Scrying Pool to replace it. Then he hits the Scrying Pool with Swindler and gives me a University. Luckily I hit his Possession with my Jester, taking a copy, then when I play Possession I use his turn to buy a Vineyard.

He can't give you the transmute with ambassador since it's not part of the supply

[heron]

Don't forget about that black market!

[Donald X.]

He can't give you the transmute with ambassador since it's not part of the supply

Damn.

[dondon151]

University can gain cards that give +$.

In any case, while this is an interesting observation, it's not something that I explicitly think about when contemplating a Potion opening.

[gman314]

I think about it when considering a Scrying Pool engine, but otherwise it's not that critical.

[thirtyseven]

Okay let's see. The table has Black Market and nine cards with Potion in the cost. The last one, Transmute, is in the Black Market deck, where my opponent gets it.

My opponent uses Ambassador to give me the Transmute. I Remodel it into Apothecary, then Procession the Apothecary into Alchemist. I use Thief to get his Philosopher's Stone, and Junk Dealer my Squire to get a Familiar. He passes me a Golem via Masquerade, then hits it with a Saboteur, so I take a Scrying Pool to replace it. Then he hits the Scrying Pool with Swindler and gives me a University. Luckily I hit his Possession with my Jester, taking a copy, then when I play Possession I use his turn to buy a Vineyard.

He can't give you the transmute with ambassador since it's not part of the supply

 Uh, I think Donald X. knows his own ga-- wait...

[enfynet]

Okay let's see. The table has Black Market and nine cards with Potion in the cost. The last one, Transmute, is in the Black Market deck, where my opponent gets it.

My opponent uses Ambassador to give me the Transmute. I Remodel it into Apothecary, then Procession the Apothecary into Alchemist. I use Thief to get his Philosopher's Stone, and Junk Dealer my Squire to get a Familiar. He passes me a Golem via Masquerade, then hits it with a Saboteur, so I take a Scrying Pool to replace it. Then he hits the Scrying Pool with Swindler and gives me a University. Luckily I hit his Possession with my Jester, taking a copy, then when I play Possession I use his turn to buy a Vineyard.

He can't give you the transmute with ambassador since it's not part of the supply

 Uh, I think Donald X. knows his own ga-- wait...

Reveal a card from your hand. Return up to 2 copies of it from your hand to the Supply. Then each other player gains a copy of it.

Hmmm... Ambassador doesn't say it has to be part of the supply, only that the card is returned there. Does this mean Ambassador can make a "supply pile" for a card that was not originally in the supply? This just got weird...

[eHalcyon]

Hmmm... Ambassador doesn't say it has to be part of the supply, only that the card is returned there. Does this mean Ambassador can make a "supply pile" for a card that was not originally in the supply? This just got weird...

No.  If a card is not part of the supply, Ambassador cannot return it.  You try to return it, but it fails.  This is why Ambassador is weaker in games with Shelters.

Related -- piles with mixed names (Ruins and Knights) interact strangely with Amb.  You can only ever return one Knight at a time.  You can return two like-named Ruins simultaneously, but not two differently named Ruins.  When doing the Attack portion of Amb in games with 3+ players, you only continue passing out cards if they have the same name.  That means the player on your left would get a Knight, but not other players.  The player on your left would get the Ruins you return, but following players would only get a Ruin if it is the same one that you returned.  Or if you only reveal and do not return the Ruin, the player on your left only gets a Ruin if the one on top of the pile is the same as the one you revealed...

[timchen]

So, the well-known fact about building engines with Potion-costing cards is that you have to buy a Potion to get them, and then once you've got all the engine components you need you've got this dead card hanging around that doesn't help you buy Provinces. But another fact about Potion-costing engines is that no Potion-costing engine components actually give +$. The only Potion-costing card that gives +$ is Philosopher's Stone, which isn't a good card for engines and thus doesn't interact well with other Potion-costing cards. So Potion delays your Province-buying power in two ways: it's not only a card which doesn't give you coin, it doesn't even help you get cards that provide coin. Getting too caught up in using your Potion to buy Potion-costing engine components can leave you with a brilliant engine that draws your deck but still only has $7 worth of payoff. So that's another strategic consideration in the use of Potions, which I haven't seen pointed out much.

This is actually the first few things we caught when we play IRL the first few times with Alchemy! We noticed that people's action chain becomes noticeably lengthier but in the end, not that much money output

But of course, when we started on iso with all random, this becomes pretty hard to remember.

[flies]

Wait, transmute turns your estates into gold!  That gives you money!

[buggy]

It must have been a typo.  Donald obviously meant to type Masquerade, not Ambassador.

[ftl]

The keys are like right next to each other!

[Axxle]

The keys are like right next to each other!

I macro Ambassador and Masquerade to my M1 and M2 keys, doesn't everyone else?

[Donald X.]

It must have been a typo.  Donald obviously meant to type Masquerade, not Ambassador.

I was just shifting around the cards to make the story better. It could happen to any one of you, watch out.

[Morgrim7]

As long as you have a Transmute, you can use it to get other Transmutes...
And with Black Market, you still need a Potion to actually buy the card.